Submit hopping and mass inhibition

[bigredforester]

I specifically excluded high waking from my suggestion, as you can doubtlessly read above. As you have correctly assessed, it is mainly the FSD cooldown which gives you an effective 7-9 seconds of doing any damage, that is if your MIF is lower than the trader's. As only the FSD cooldown is affected by my suggestion and not high waking, there is still plenty room for combat avoidance. I'm not asking for an astronomical cooldown, I am asking for a fair shot at bigger ships.

The best way for trader ships to avoid combat is still avoiding interdictions altogether either through winning them, emergency drops or fooling the pirate/player killer to follow you into a certain direction before turning away and high waking.

There currently isn't enough time for a pirate to effectively disable drives of larger ships, should they choose to submit hop.

I don't know if it is just me but interdicting is bugged. I was killed by another player the other day because the mini game glitched while I was escaping. it would flicker rapidly between me being lined up with the target and the target being off screen. since he was in a bigger ship then me, I had to be almost perfect anyway, and the minute this started happening, I went from almost escaped to being instantly interdicted.

this happens to me a lot but this time is cost me a lot. before they make it harder to escape after submitting or being interdicted, they need to fix this,

 

[Mosait]

Trade ships are much cheaper to fit than the equivalent cargo capacity multipurpose, aren't they? This counts for something, a lot more than what most people give credit for.

I agree, except in the case of the t9. I originally was planning on getting one for trading, but I think I'll get it later for my ship collection. I would go with it if it had at least another 100 tons of cargo capability and more jump range, like 17-19 ly. Right now, it seems to be too much of a liability.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

I agree, except in the case of the t9. I originally was planning on getting one for trading, but I think I'll get it later for my ship collection. I would go with it if it had at least another 100 tons of cargo capability and more jump range, like 17-19 ly. Right now, it seems to be too much of a liability.

This is exactly as it should be, in my opinion.

 

[Mosait]

This is exactly as it should be, in my opinion.

Okay. Still think it's a poorly balanced and thought out design.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

Okay. Still think it's a poorly balanced and thought out design.

Why? A cheap lakon cow holds only a bit more but can't jump or defend itself as well as an anaconda?

 

[Mosait]

Why? A cheap lakon cow holds only a bit more but can't jump or defend itself as well as an anaconda?

You do make a valid point, and I understand that argument. I look at that comparison, anaconda vs. T9, in two ways:

1) I'd rather see them as competing products. As far as trading, not combat. They arent. Anaconda is superior in every way even with a slightly lower cargo hold. Yes, I know, the t9 is 75mil less, depending on build. I don't believe that's a compelling reason to take such a large risk on the t9.

2) In role-playing, I have a hard time believing the t9 would truly be used (or Lakon would design such a poorly engineered product, or they should fire their engineers and designers), UNLESS, there is more to it later on. Like as a tug, etc. And, yes, it is probably fine for mass material transport (multiple t9's) with sufficient wing protection (not very useful then for those play solo).

There's more, yet, I feel these illustrate my opinion on a generally. I understand there is risk in trading. To me, using the t9 does not validate the risk for an extra 40-50 tons in an underpowered whale that can barely jump out of some systems (given fully loaded).

Honestly, I haven't flown it, so that can give you more reason to disregard my opinion. I'm going off the word of others and my analysis in a cost/benefit and range perspective. I probably wont purchase it for a long time, since I see no reason purchasing it except to just have it as a novelty.

If you found different than my conjecture, then please let me know. I want to like the t9, but I have a hard time validating it being a primary purchase, prior to the anaconda, for trading.

All the best, and fly safe.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

You do make a valid point, and I understand that argument. I look at that comparison, anaconda vs. T9, in two ways:

1) I'd rather see them as competing products. As far as trading, not combat. They arent. Anaconda is superior in every way even with a slightly lower cargo hold. Yes, I know, the t9 is 75mil less, depending on build. I don't believe that's a compelling reason to take such a large risk on the t9.

2) In role-playing, I have a hard time believing the t9 would truly be used (or Lakon would design such a poorly engineered product, or they should fire their engineers and designers), UNLESS, there is more to it later on. Like as a tug, etc. And, yes, it is probably fine for mass material transport (multiple t9's) with sufficient wing protection (not very useful then for those play solo).

There's more, yet, I feel these illustrate my opinion on a generally. I understand there is risk in trading. To me, using the t9 does not validate the risk for an extra 40-50 tons in an underpowered whale that can barely jump out of some systems (given fully loaded).

Honestly, I haven't flown it, so that can give you more reason to disregard my opinion. I'm going off the word of others and my analysis in a cost/benefit and range perspective. I probably wont purchase it for a long time, since I see no reason purchasing it except to just have it as a novelty.

If you found different than my conjecture, then please let me know. I want to like the t9, but I have a hard time validating it being a primary purchase, prior to the anaconda, for trading.

All the best, and fly safe.

All I really have left to add is that they're not really supposed to be equally balanced. The very second anyone can afford a full trade anaconda, they should really get out of the T9 and never go back.
But this is my opinion and how I play - I like not dying. Others may feel otherwise and the extra 10% a T9 can give them may be worth it in their eyes.
Though, looking at the numbers, if you die less than twice as often in the T9, you're probably better off in the T9, profit wise.

 

[bigredforester]

A interesting option and one that has precedence in real life, is to have "Q kits" for the dedicated Freight ships. these would let then trade cargo capacity for highly ugraded armament, armor and a bigger power-plant,. this would be a nasty surprise for pirates.
in the ED universe I can see security agencies, using this in systems that have a real pirate problem.

they would be expensive, and of limited use,(basically Bait for a trap,) since they would still be slower and less maneuverable then more combat orientated ships. but would make things more interesting.

 

[Miazan]

Hint to TS: use pulse disruptor + beams.
I was mindlessly flying in highsec for 2 hours with a half million bounty(0.8M), and i get 0 interdictions. So, pirating players = no risk(you're chosing target + not chased by authorities)/high profit. I just hear whining:"I want to pwn players with no risks for a good bounty". I think pirating should be more risky, but more rewarding(you just want it to be more rewarding). Traders have no special devices to escape pirate attack, or ability to protect themselves(no mercenary-bodyguard system).

 

[InMemoriamSirocco]

I agree that tweaks are desirable but I don't particularly agree with *these* proposed tweaks.

Some alternate ideas:

* Submitting puts the FSD on the short timer for a low-wake escape, but on the long timer for a high-wake escape.

* Make mass inhibition cumulative, so multiple smaller ships can inhibit a single larger ship.

* Add an FSD scrambler module (utility slot?). Lots of ways to do this... you could make it like a discovery scanner ping (has charge-up and cooldown, completely resets the target's FSD charge... but then you have to wait for the cooldown before you can fire it again). Or you could make it so that continuously "firing" the module prevents the FSD charge from advancing, but generates a lot of heat. Or lots of other things.

Those are all genius ideas. Repped +1

 

[captain slow]

How about this? You get the extra fsd cooldown period you want. You fly around and find a sad, lonely trader and interdict him. You blow him to bits because you now can, only to discover that he was a Duke (or any high rank you like) in the Empire. You are now instantly wanted by every Empire pilot in the known universe because while they were "fixing" fsd cooldown they added this in too. You now get constantly interdicted yourself and get blown to bits by Elite Empire Assassination squads every time you log on because your damn fsd just won't cooldown in time. Now wouldn't that be fun?

 

[Miazan]

He happens to be in a ship with a higher mass inhibition factor

You're whining:"It's unfair that somebody piloting ship that's better than my, let me pwn them.". Special for you, concept is simple: "you can't eat fish larger than you". Buy a python, fit it with pulse disruptors and beams, now you can pirate trading ships(except condas). Currently you don't get any consequences for being a pirate.

 

[tangorn]

Can you guys enlighten a noob. I've been reading about submit hopping for the last several days (in fact after I barely ran away from a Python that interdicted my Courrier three times back to back in Laviny-Duval capital system; yes i am that dumb, with 1.5ls to go I just kept on my destination).

1. I usually do have a short cooldown after submitting. Is the shortness what you term as 'no cooldown'? Or am I missing something?
2. I always run from big guys, but simply back to SC. Am I exploiting, or is the exploit only when one hops to another system?

 

[Asp Explorer]

It's not an exploit if you escape from interdictions using skill and the methods available to you in-game. It's only an exploit if you pull the plug.

 

[tangorn]

It's not an exploit if you escape from interdictions using skill and the methods available to you in-game. It's only an exploit if you pull the plug.

I might be overly meticulous in my definitions, but is not exploit = using the faulty game mechanics in unintended way to your advantage

 

[Asp Explorer]

Not when everyone is spamming shield boosters and calling that valid gameplay. Use what you can in-game.

 

[Rauminen]

Ok, I really don't get what are you talking about. There IS a cooldown after you submit, it's just shorter than the one you get if you don't - or when you are the interdictor.

If someone doesn't want to fight, they flee. It's much better than tapping out like most people who usually .... being upset about this kind of stuff do when they face a bounty hunter. There are two sides of every coin.

Fast ship with adequate weaponry solves this issue. You can get the shields off and shoot out the drives. If you can't you didn't choose your target too well.

And seriously why am I even.... I mean it's there, you can figure it out for yourself like I did. Don't ask for stuff to be changed, so it's easier for you. Increase your skill instead. It's much more fun. At least for me.

 

[KaizoMK]

I do agree with muffin, but as it stands the options for traders are to submit hop, or die/lose everything. The interdiction system isn't very good at all. Trade ships are terrible options for trade - the type 6 I'm pretty sure isn't safe enough to warrant the boost in trade you get, up from a cobra. On the upper end, the type 7 is obsolete in the face of the clipper, and the type 9 is a terrible option, barely better than the relatively safe python and far worse than the powerhouse anaconda. Barring submit hopping, your only options are to evade and outrun, or to fight back. The trade ships simply cannot do these things, whereas a python or conda can fight, and a cobra or clipper can flee.

The system is going to take a ton of forethought to balance properly, but there is a clear issue here. Also frankly pirating is pretty terrible, but that's a whole sack of potatoes to deal with.

Sidebar, if escorts were reasonably profitable that'd be a game changer..

 

[Psycho Romeo]

I do agree with muffin, but as it stands the options for traders are to submit hop, or die/lose everything. The interdiction system isn't very good at all. Trade ships are terrible options for trade - the type 6 I'm pretty sure isn't safe enough to warrant the boost in trade you get, up from a cobra. On the upper end, the type 7 is obsolete in the face of the clipper, and the type 9 is a terrible option, barely better than the relatively safe python and far worse than the powerhouse anaconda. Barring submit hopping, your only options are to evade and outrun, or to fight back. The trade ships simply cannot do these things, whereas a python or conda can fight, and a cobra or clipper can flee.

The system is going to take a ton of forethought to balance properly, but there is a clear issue here. Also frankly pirating is pretty terrible, but that's a whole sack of potatoes to deal with.

Sidebar, if escorts were reasonably profitable that'd be a game changer..

Why should a trade ship be able to defend itself? If you forego any combat potential for a complete trade ship, why shouldn't you just roll over and die when forced into combat, or have a very difficult time escaping?
I gave up about 10% of my cargo and jump range and the only problem I had escaping from a clipper was self inflicted (forgot to manage heat), and I still made a ton of profit. That 10% bought me an A rated shield, two SCBs, and A rated thrusters.
.
Traders absolutely have the potential to escape and flee, or even fight back (battle cow). But you can only do that if you choose to give up those eighteen tons of cargo and two light years of range to actually fit yourself with something other than D rated modules.
.
For players that don't want to do that, they simply need to suck it up and take a multipurpose ship. It does (or at least did) say on the main page: every player will need at least some skill in combat. It is inevitable. How prepared you are is up to you.

 

[Muffindrake]

Hint to TS: use pulse disruptor + beams.
I was mindlessly flying in highsec for 2 hours with a half million bounty(0.8M), and i get 0 interdictions. So, pirating players = no risk(you're chosing target + not chased by authorities)/high profit. I just hear whining:"I want to pwn players with no risks for a good bounty". I think pirating should be more risky, but more rewarding(you just want it to be more rewarding). Traders have no special devices to escape pirate attack, or ability to protect themselves(no mercenary-bodyguard system).

Mindless murder does not equal piracy, you are talking about player killing; and to call piracy a "high profit" profession is a plain wrong assessment.

Pulse Disruptor - You mean that weapon that is behind a 4 week time and grind barrier? What a ludicrous suggestion, considering that weapon doesn't even belong to the alleged pirate power (pirates instead got disappointed by the Sheetoscrambler).

Piracy already carries a significant risk in the form of punishment by bounty hunters - what you invest into cargo racks and other modules, these fellows simply put into SCBs which means you are automatically outmatched, if equal skill is given. Frame Shift Wake Scanners not being as useful as they could be is a sad downside to both sides of the fence.

Traders have a few tools to avoid death and fights (aside from submithop exploit):

- win an interdiction
- emergency drop at the right time when someone is trying to tail you, then high wake out
- employ silent running, speed, chaff and shield cell banks to buy time for a high wake (well-fitted multi-purpose ships only)
- avoid popular trade routes and trading tools (very obvious and ignored)
- drop the requested amount of cargo and move on with your life

Please do not comment on matters that you know nothing about.

You're whining:"It's unfair that somebody piloting ship that's better than my, let me pwn them.". Special for you, concept is simple: "you can't eat fish larger than you". Buy a python, fit it with pulse disruptors and beams, now you can pirate trading ships(except condas). Currently you don't get any consequences for being a pirate.

I am already flying a Python. Putting a get out of jail freecard on a particular ship doesn't help your point either.

Ok, I really don't get what are you talking about. There IS a cooldown after you submit, it's just shorter than the one you get if you don't - or when you are the interdictor.

If someone doesn't want to fight, they flee. It's much better than tapping out like most people who usually .... being upset about this kind of stuff do when they face a bounty hunter. There are two sides of every coin.

Fast ship with adequate weaponry solves this issue. You can get the shields off and shoot out the drives. If you can't you didn't choose your target too well.

And seriously why am I even.... I mean it's there, you can figure it out for yourself like I did. Don't ask for stuff to be changed, so it's easier for you. Increase your skill instead. It's much more fun. At least for me.

Compared to the amount of shields that an Anaconda can carry, the cooldown (7 seconds actual cooldown and about 3 seconds delay for finishing the normal space drop) practically doesn't exist. Beams aren't very good for sustained fire and pulse disruptors do not work through shields.
In addition to that, should the trader choose to immediately drop out to normal space after entering Supercruise (due to missing masslock), his low wake in SC would disappear and I would have no way to follow, while he recharges his shields. Not even multiple interdictions can work around that. It is thus an exploit. This applies to any case where your ship might have a lower MIF.

If someone doesn't want to fight players, he stays out of populated systems instead of using exploits to get around actual blockades to get what he wants. The former is what kept me alive through the beginning of the game.

No amount of skill can work around submit hopping (and/or resulting shield recharge in normal space safety with no repercussions), only a time investment in the form of a conda which would take a ridiculous amount of time for a pure pirate.

You said that there were currently no consequences for being a pirate - are the persecution by (player) bounty hunters, the hostility of police, the very bad tools with which to practise the profession itself and lastly the poor profit not severe enough?