Modes [Suggestion] How to incentivise open play and make it relevant

[Phosphora]

Again all that is fine. Until player factions are involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnYXTh4TCVo

Yes everyone effects the BGS. But not everyone uses it to its fullest extent. BECAUSE THE MAJORITY DONT CARE. You are NOT the majority. And in turn its hurting the growth of this game. POINT BLANK.

And the devs cant even argue that. If their community see's it. If hotel California lasts 5 years. Then, im sure they understand the cause and effects.

Im looking forward to the changes in beyond. Lets hope they do it right this time.

Player factions are only part of the game; anecdotal evidence isn't evidence. Only Frontier have access to conclusive figures regarding the numbers in player factions or inactive people - without those figures it's impossible to come up with a robust cause-and-effect analysis. Certainly Frontier's finances look healthy.

I am affecting the BGS to the fullest extent of my interest - PvP bores me.

Nearly three years ago I applied for a job which needed SQL. I spent hours revising my skills in this area and ensuring I could write effective code. I had the interview and a SQL test - and was successful. Afterwards I was told only two candidates had applied for the position - the other guy had been as good at me at the interview but didn't have my SQL skills. I'd affected his world by studying. Should he have been able to physically assault me before the interview? Personally I don't think so. Should a group of people have been allowed to physically assault me before the interview? Again, I don't think so.

It should be possible to affect the BGS without facing combat. Elite: Dangerous is a game where people can choose their play style.

Cheers, Phos.

Cheers, Phos.

 

[Robert Maynard]

http://steamcharts.com/app/359320 Here is steam stats alone. Not to mention the people that arent using the steam.

What point are you trying to make with the Steam stats? Bearing in mind that there's no requirement for PC players to launch through Steam and XB1 and PS4 players aren't shown at all.

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...ired_of_cheating_frontier_give_us_a_trail_of/

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=EliteDangerous

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/7a201t/frontiers_rate_of_development/

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...dear_frontier_are_you_trying_to_redesign_the/ <~ that one is important.

I can post more. But I figures this was enough. I suggest you and frontier both look through the comments to see how unhappy people are. Lots of people have quit. Or wont buy the next Expansion.

But hey, what do I know. Its not like im not involved with major groups and talk with other people either.

Most of those seem to relate to pace of development - not to the PvP / PvE debate.

Its not just PVP. But A LOT OF IT is PVP related. And if it wasnt? Again, there wouldnt be 5 years of hotel california and there wouldnt be people advocating for it. Just like I told others. People have said the same thing way before I got here. And when I seen the problems I thought hey, I could give some feed back that could help this game. COme to find out. Everything I have said has been said already.

Of course a lot of it is PvP related - other players can avoid players that wish to engage in PvP, by design - Frontier have not changed the game, in the five years since the first design information was published, to require PvP for any part of the game - that's why there are requests / demands to change the game.

Like I said, The community and the numbers speak for themselves.

Which numbers?

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

What point are you trying to make with the Steam stats? Bearing in mind that there's no requirement for PC players to launch through Steam and XB1 and PS4 players aren't shown at all.



Most of those seem to relate to pace of development - not to the PvP / PvE debate.



Of course a lot of it is PvP related - other players can avoid players that wish to engage in PvP, by design - Frontier have not changed the game, in the five years since the first design information was published, to require PvP for any part of the game - that's why there are requests / demands to change the game.



Which numbers?

Turn a blind eye if you want. You're not helping anybody.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Frontier has proved us all that they can change things if some part of the game is frustrating for players or if they consider they need a change whatever the reasons. So please, keep the "the game has being designed like this" comment apart.

Indeed they have - though not regarding making PvP a requirement for any element of gameplay.

Now let's point at what is going on with criminality. People was complaining about how bad the consequences of being a criminal against players are in this game (I'm agree with them).
Frontier started changing those consequences.

Frontier would seem to want more people to play in Open - Sandro posted well over a year ago regarding increased consequences for particular player behaviours, which are just beginning to be rolled out. Frontier have also stated that they advocate Open play.

Now I ask something: why do people want those consequences if they play all the time from private groups because "the game was designed like this? If they are not really affected by what other players do concerning PvP?
I want it because I play in open mode (excepcionally in solo mode) but what about them?

.... because Open is the only game mode with an unlimited population. The game design information published at the start of the Kickstarter offered the possibility of multiple Open groups (modes) where the rules of each could be different to accommodate different play-styles. An Open-PvE mode would seem to be an obvious candidate for one of these - but this has not been implemented, nor have different rule sets.

I can see a really strong feeling against all PvP players (and I'm not one of them) and I cannot understand why.

From what one Dev has indicated, Frontier are well aware that the majority of players don't get involved in PvP. Personally I take no enjoyment from PvP. When players make proposals that would make PvP a requirement of particular game elements there is natural resistance from those that don't enjoy PvP.

What is really going on is that people want to win wars without opposition.

How is there no opposition? Every player can engage in the PvE elements that affect the BGS relating to conflicts.

It is funny too that when we address all those players playing convered PvP, safety in their private groups from the logical consequences, they allways name the defenceless explorers in their arguments (I was exploring the whole last year, just for the record) and avoid how their actions are affecting other players, keeping those arguments always apart.
I left what I really love (PP and BGS) because how this game is designed.

But hey!!! Keep saying that "PvE" players (or what you call Pve players) are the most injured in this game. They are the little girl of Frontier and they complain the most.

No... they didn't.

They are not considering the "MMO" part of the game at all. PvE and social parts included, not only PvP as you always claim.

In what way did Frontier not design the game to allow players to choose how many players they would play among?

The MMO part of the game exists alongside the Solo and Private Group part of the game - each is optional. There is definitely a lack of a PvE mode though....

 

[Robert Maynard]

Turn a blind eye if you want. You're not helping anybody.

Neither are claims relating to numbers that are not supported by data nor analysis of said data.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Neither are claims relating to numbers that are not supported by data nor analysis of said data.

Like I said. The community speaks for themselves. The stats and more speak for themselves.

Its not all puppy dogs and rainbows like it is on these forums. And you cant silence and hold people back elsewhere.

Its not hard to see it. But you purposefully live in denial about it. But in my past experiences on these forums. you argue them for the sake of it. And with that. I am out. Remember people dont like to come to these forums because of this specifically.

Have fun with whatever crusade you are on. Because in the end. you will find out you were wrong in one way or another. There will be changes. Or the game will fail to something bigger and better. And the player base will be so small because right now people are leaving faster than the paying missions in rhea a few weeks ago. And if it doesnt improve. The trend will continue to happen while you enjoy a game a fraction of the player base thats hardly even playing right now.

But either way. You will find out. You are wrong.

Good day.

 

[Markzeero]

Like I said. The community speaks for themselves. The stats and more speak for themselves.

What about the Solo playes who don't want to interact with other players even in the forum? Have you counted them? We need actual statistics and not a guess based on the forum discussion. It's like carrying out a survey of people who don't complete surveys.

Cheers,
Mark

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

What about the Solo playes who don't want to interact with other players even in the forum? Have you counted them? We need actual statistics and not a guess based on the forum discussion. It's like carrying out a survey of people who don't complete surveys.

Cheers,
Mark

They can continue enjoying the game without attacking player faction. There is a reason they are in solo. They are playing for themselves. The only loophole here is the people directly attacking others within it.

I even sent FDEV support a ticket when it started to happen. And they even said it was a new can of worms they didnt foresee. Expect changes.

 

[kinglemo2000]

Who can take anything serious that the "that90kid" says when he goes out of his way to insult PvEr's who play in private or solo on Youtube with this video < video link removed > this is just a veiled attempt to want more targets in open to shoot at, as others have said his argument over the BSG\powerplay is bull with XBOX PS4 and instancing across times zones it doesn't matter a player group would have to have players on 24 hours day on all platforms and even if open had a advantage as he keeps bleating on about, this does not take into account that you can block players, you can also setup your router of firewall to block p2p connections so have your own solo in open, since release the game was sold with the three modes shared galaxy as a selling point perhaps people who don't like this should have read the reviews before buying

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Who can take anything serious that the "that90kid" says when he goes out of his way to insult PvEr's who play in private or solo on Youtube with this video < video link removed > this is just a veiled attempt to want more targets in open to shoot at, as others have said his argument over the BSG\powerplay is bull with XBOX PS4 and instancing across times zones it doesn't matter a player group would have to have players on 24 hours day on all platforms and even if open had a advantage as he keeps bleating on about, this does not take into account that you can block players, you can also setup your router of firewall to block p2p connections so have your own solo in open, since release the game was sold with the three modes shared galaxy as a selling point perhaps people who don't like this should have read the reviews before buying

Hey, the fact I had the content from the community to even make that video. Speaks volumes. And thats too bad.

Ontop of that. It was meant to take hot topics and make light of the situations. But hey people are called carebears for a reason.

And its not because they just enjoy PVE content. Its the crybabies that want to attack others while they run their mouths in solo and private.

And by reviews, you mean the advertisement saying "or hunt other commanders" "Competitive powerplay" and much more? While the community cries wolf and griefer when they get shot at? Please.

 

[Tiwaz]

They can continue enjoying the game without attacking player faction. There is a reason they are in solo. They are playing for themselves. The only loophole here is the people directly attacking others within it.

I even sent FDEV support a ticket when it started to happen. And they even said it was a new can of worms they didnt foresee. Expect changes.

You are under false premise that opposing someone doing something MUST be PEWPEWPEWPEW! Someone is moving on your faction, do same they do only opposite. Tada! You have thwarted the evil invasion using equal measures.
Same for powerplay and everything else. Do the tasks which strengthen your own position. That is perfectly fine and equal playing ground.
If you don't want to, do not complain that someone might somehow affect your thing when you are not willing to work for your thing.

As has been noted, in thread and to gather it all up:
1) There is no evidence that it is solo/PG who are ONLY against you. Some of them are also FOR you. Thus, they to unknown extent equal out.
2) There is no evidence that solo/PG is THE reason why you cannot see people who affect your situation. Crap connections, denied p2p, different platform, timesone or else different schedule. ALL those affect it. You cannot claim to have 24/7 absolute watch over any given location in all different platforms to be able to say that it is the Evil solo/PG who are causing the change.


Then there is matter of removing content for people. That is very stupid and shortsighted policy. But let's for a moment pretend that Frontier pulls off something and FORCES everyone from solo and PG out into Open by making solo/PG experience much more limited and generally worse. Has anyone thought what is the end result?

I can tell you. It will be for short while all YEEEHAAA!!! RARE AND MEANINGFUL! PEWPEWPEWPEW DAKKADAKKADAKKA. BOOOM BOOM BOOM!
PvP crowd will be ecstatic, FINALLY lots of emergent slaughter, oh sorry content.

But does anyone here think that people pushed from solo/PG by making them incredibly unrewarding experience will just grit their teeth, go to rebuy and rinse and repeat for MO' DAKKA!?
Nope, rapidly there is "So... Blown up again. Anyone remember what that new game that came out/went to sale recently was called?'" And PvE crowd will start to leave the game.
This will be MUCH bigger group that PvP players leaving, because majority of players are NOT PvP-players. (we have evidence of developer having said majority of players are not participating in PvP and when we look at other games trend is that PvE-servers are much more popular than PvP ones, even without looking into possible unbalances on PvP server populations that make it gankfest for some sides and PvE with minute risk of PvP for the other)

When PvE crowd leaves the game, game starts to die. Ultima Online almost died because of unrestricted PvP. They made correction and created pure PvE side and hit golden age of growth.
I came across another MMO in same vein recently. Pathfinder Online. It was all about PvP almost everywhere and anytime. Currently I think the development team was first reduced to 3 guys, and maybe later to 1 guy, who keeps the mostly dead server up and running to some extent for small (and apparently dwindling) number of players.

But it is unlikely it would get to MO' DAKKA-phase. With Elite having rather shallow offerings in terms of things to do, once you start to make solo/PG less entertaining players will not move to open but directly go for second stage of my described process and just leave the game.

Idea that this could be avoided by having players police players is also completely dead in inception. It has not worked ever. It has been tried. Idea of Ultima Online was that players police players. Pathfinder had same idea. Both went total gankfest and neither could get that "player police player"-system to work. Because it cannot work. Amount of disruptive players always outstrips amount of players who want to be police force. Not to mention that police has to be in sufficient numbers in right place in right time to have any effect.
And then they might want to play the game in some other form too.

 

[Jockey79]

Hey, the fact I had the content from the community to even make that video. Speaks volumes. And thats too bad.

And yet no mention of me or "The Wall of Information".
I'm hurt, all the times I've shot down these rubbish arguments in the SOG threads, for YEARS.... and not even a tiny mention of me.

Speaking of shooting down arguments;

And by reviews, you mean the advertisement saying "or hunt other commanders"

Show me where it say's you'll find them?
You *can* hunt them all you like - but no guarantee was made that you'd *find* them.
Also, no promise was made that other players would be available to be your target dummies.

"Competitive powerplay"

The BGS / CGs and PP are quite competitive. And they were all designed to work within the structure of the mode system from multiple platforms.
So a Solo PS4 player can be a part of the narrative, a small group of friends on XBox One can be a part of the narrative and even 40,000+ Mobius members on PC can all be a part of the same narrative.

All of them doing as the advertised features say;

Play Your Way
Blaze Your Own Trail.

Now go fix your video and feature "The Wall of Information" in it somewhere;

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

And yet no mention of me or "The Wall of Information".
I'm hurt, all the times I've shot down these rubbish arguments in the SOG threads, for YEARS.... and not even a tiny mention of me.

Speaking of shooting down arguments;




Show me where it say's you'll find them?
You *can* hunt them all you like - but no guarantee was made that you'd *find* them.
Also, no promise was made that other players would be available to be your target dummies.



The BGS / CGs and PP are quite competitive. And they were all designed to work within the structure of the mode system from multiple platforms.
So a Solo PS4 player can be a part of the narrative, a small group of friends on XBox One can be a part of the narrative and even 40,000+ Mobius members on PC can all be a part of the same narrative.

All of them doing as the advertised features say;

Play Your Way
Blaze Your Own Trail.

Now go fix your video and feature "The Wall of Information" in it somewhere;

If it was, the majority of the player base would be using it. And the majority of the player base is quite upset.

Listen I love the game as much as you guys do. But please. See things for what they are. The current features of the game is not used to their fullest extent. And they could be.

Its been a problem for a long time now. If it wasnt, they wouldnt have even announced core changes to begin with. So there it is. We will let time speak for itself.

And you cant blaze your own trail and play your own way. Not without those changes being made. People quit because of them. And dont worry about another video. I got something juicy in the works.

 

[Tiwaz]

If it was, the majority of the player base would be using it. And the majority of the player base is quite upset.

Listen I love the game as much as you guys do. But please. See things for what they are. The current features of the game is not used to their fullest extent. And they could be.

Its been a problem for a long time now. If it wasnt, they wouldnt have even announced core changes to begin with. So there it is. We will let time speak for itself.

And you cant blaze your own trail and play your own way. Not without those changes being made. People quit because of them. And dont worry about another video. I got something juicy in the works.

Evidence that YOU represent majority of player base please?
As said, only so far known statement regarding population says that majority of players are NOT involved in PvP.

When comparing the amount of players in other MMO-games we see same thing. Majority want no PvP, or only in very rare and consensual basis.
Reality is that if Frontier provided proper PvE-open, it would be in a blink of an eye biggest in terms of players and PvP-open would be even more empty than it is as it is.
Only problem here is that Frontier refuses to admit that they seriously dropped the ball assuming there would be some means to make "rare and meaningful"-PvP and now pride stops them from admitting they screwed up and creating PvE-open.
Hnestly, most non-PvP players would not really even care if PvP was chopped into it's own server with no connection to rest, but reality is that servers cost money and Frontier has figured out that PvP-open on separate infra would just not be financially viable.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Evidence that YOU represent majority of player base please?
As said, only so far known statement regarding population says that majority of players are NOT involved in PvP.

When comparing the amount of players in other MMO-games we see same thing. Majority want no PvP, or only in very rare and consensual basis.
Reality is that if Frontier provided proper PvE-open, it would be in a blink of an eye biggest in terms of players and PvP-open would be even more empty than it is as it is.
Only problem here is that Frontier refuses to admit that they seriously dropped the ball assuming there would be some means to make "rare and meaningful"-PvP and now pride stops them from admitting they screwed up and creating PvE-open.
Hnestly, most non-PvP players would not really even care if PvP was chopped into it's own server with no connection to rest, but reality is that servers cost money and Frontier has figured out that PvP-open on separate infra would just not be financially viable.

Then dont. But they shouldnt fix the game to support it just because people dont want it. You have modes to opt out of it. However, we dont have modes to opt out of a BGS attack vs other players.

GG.

 

[Robert Maynard]

However, we dont have modes to opt out of a BGS attack vs other players.

There is no opt out of BGS attack from other players - in any mode (or platform).

The opt out from direct PvP is in place - as it was always designed to be.

 

[Tiwaz]

Then dont. But they shouldnt fix the game to support it just because people dont want it. You have modes to opt out of it. However, we dont have modes to opt out of a BGS attack vs other players.

GG.

People want to participate in activities like BGS, PP, CG etc. Most people, however, do not want pewpew.
And as said. Nothing is stopping you from preventing from defending your position by doing the same thing as the attacker. Work for your faction/whatever. Bring trade, do stuff.

Those are perfectly functional and viable means of defense, specially considering that there are

1) Mutliple platforms so you would NEVER be able to intercept people of other platform no matter what
2) Variety of timezones and schedules meaning there will be practically no way to ensure sufficient blockade
3) Issues of instancing meaning that even if you are both in open at same time in same place you STILL have good possibility of not seeing one another.

None of these issues can be fixed by punishing/limiting solo/PG and unless you can prove that they are not at least as relevant to your success/failure as solo/PG then it makes absolutely no sense to try to target solo/PG who, once more, can as well work FOR you as against you.

 

[Jockey79]

If it was, the majority of the player base would be using it. And the majority of the player base is quite upset.

Please don't make grand sweeping generalisations like that, especially when they can be countered so easily by asking you where you got that information from.
You only know what your immediate friends / clan says and thinks about the mode system and game features. Nothing more.

You've never asked me my opinions (not that anyone has ever needed to ask ), not seen you on the Mobius forums (largest player group in game) asking them (because we know the answer).

You have no idea what the "majority" think and feel about the mode system. The Steam stats are not representative of the player base in any way, due to the fact PC users don't even have to use Steam so they are not counted (some folks disconnected their Steam from Elite due to Steam taking 30% sales cut from FD just for being connected). And you've ignored XBox (and how FDev had to add private groups on XB1 because of the outcry of it not being there from the start) and ignored PS/4 players.

The only people with any actual idea is Frontier and they have always stayed tight lipped over it, apart from the one time Zac broke cover to reply to a comment over losing players;

They need to be.


Look at the current posts on the subreddit and the forum. Your core player base is simply stopping playing. You might be selling copies but if your core community is splitting or stopping playing then you have a problem.

Hey Fred,


I wanted to reply to this honestly if I may.


I'm not going to be talking about active player numbers explicitally but I can tell you without question that the game has a very healthy and thriving community who enjoys hours upon hours of Elite. You really don't need to worry on that point.


<snip>


Zac

People quit because of them.

People quit for all sorts of reasons.

C&P being a joke;
No Open PvE Mode;
Because it has Modes and people "hide";
Game is 3 miles wide and in inch deep;
Power Play is neglected;
RNG'neers is a massive grind and waste of time;

and so on...

And dont worry about another video. I got something juicy in the works.

Good, I look forward to you taking the mick out of me or "The Wall of Information" (or both).... it's about time we all laughed more and cried less around here.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

There is no opt out of BGS attack from other players - in any mode (or platform).

The opt out from direct PvP is in place - as it was always designed to be.

Yeah well it goes without saying. Its bad. And the community reflects it. How about we see what they do. Because I can promise you right now. Its not working.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Please don't make grand sweeping generalisations like that, especially when they can be countered so easily by asking you where you got that information from.
You only know what your immediate friends / clan says and thinks about the mode system and game features. Nothing more.

You've never asked me my opinions (not that anyone has ever needed to ask ), not seen you on the Mobius forums (largest player group in game) asking them (because we know the answer).

You have no idea what the "majority" think and feel about the mode system. The Steam stats are not representative of the player base in any way, due to the fact PC users don't even have to use Steam so they are not counted (some folks disconnected their Steam from Elite due to Steam taking 30% sales cut from FD just for being connected). And you've ignored XBox (and how FDev had to add private groups on XB1 because of the outcry of it not being there from the start) and ignored PS/4 players.

The only people with any actual idea is Frontier and they have always stayed tight lipped over it, apart from the one time Zac broke cover to reply to a comment over losing players;





People quit for all sorts of reasons.

C&P being a joke;
No Open PvE Mode;
Because it has Modes and people "hide";
Game is 3 miles wide and in inch deep;
Power Play is neglected;
RNG'neers is a massive grind and waste of time;

and so on...



Good, I look forward to you taking the mick out of me or "The Wall of Information" (or both).... it's about time we all laughed more and cried less around here.

LoL, So entitled. Dont worry it has nothing to do with you.