Modes [Suggestion] How to incentivise open play and make it relevant

[DevCMDR]

Yeah I did.

People watch others play league of legends, pubg and many other things. TO LEARN. Gee I wonder how I know this????

Years ago I didnt get it either. But when I started watching League of legends streamers, I found out you can learn, and interact with them. And you can also spend time with their community and have fun together. And most of the time I teach this game. Even while im pvping. Ship builds, exploration even thoughg I dont do much of it. BGS the whole 9 yards.

Ill give you a hint: People watch me as they play. They might have me on in the background at work and they might sit with their family and watch me too. Ive had lots of fun growing a community around Elite Dangerous and other games.

And, in turn I've also got a lot of feedback about this game. Why people are upset. Why things are unbalanced and how it effects EVERYONE. Not just one specific group.

Im also involved with tons of player groups. We all talk with each other. Want to know a secret. All the big massive player group battles are staged. You know who gets upset about it. Not the people winning or losing. But the people that are against PVP in general.

Its really frustrating, when you are involved with everyone. And can see the issues to why the game is having a hard time. And like I have said in the past the more time people get behind this game. Most end up coming to the same conclusion. Especially when they get involved in player groups.

Thats why the Hotel California thread lasted for 5 years. And thats also why people quit or are on break waiting for these changes to be made.

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/7aiqgd/when_will_something_begin_to_happen/dpamujx/

Like I said, its night and day on these forums compared to reddit.

Maybe you should finish your post, then click post, instead of giving us a live stream of you typing it.


I gave you a massive "hint" in the form of the exact reason why people don't watch ED.

Here it is again, slower:

It.
Is.
Not.
Interesting.
To.
Watch.


Watching someone play ED is the most uninteresting experience, because most of ED's interesting aspects are for the player.
Those other two games are fast paced, with a clear discernible ending; I could watch a match of those two games, it's obvious where the interesting content is/will be.

In ED, where should you start watching? There's no clear point where you can expect action or interesting content, and frankly, ED isn't at all interesting to watch, especially if you're not already a player of the game.



If you don't understand the concept, try getting someone who has never played Rocket League to watch a stream of really good players.
Without a point of reference, it's just some people flipping cars around with a ball.
When you've played, you can then understand how skilled these people are, and how difficult some of what they're doing is.


The lack of people watching ED is related to that, but is ultimately because there's not really anything interesting to look at.
When you can provide examples of other games that are basically "turn up to the exact same environment devoid of anything interesting and perform combat that is equally uninteresting", that have thousands of viewers, then that would be a relevant counter point.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

I know where you're coming from, but as it stands the thing you're calling "player factions" are nothing to do with the players except for getting a name and starting location.
After that, they are just another NPC faction we can work for or against. We have do direct control over them and we have no real say over how they expand etc..
Sure we can encourage what happens by doing missions in a neighbouring system, but you can do that with any NPC faction - regardless of the name.



See this is where it gets sticky for PvP'ers - you tell me what YOU call meaningful, but I bet another PvP'er will have a different opinion.
Meaningful is subjective.

It's also something DBOBE has said, he want's "meaningful" player encounters, but never explains what that is to him.
He once talked about 2 explorers meeting in deep space and how that may play out - does 1 kill the other to prevent them getting the scan credits, or race back.
(Which you can do this now if you're in Open and bump into someone)



I thought Power Play was going to be a massive game changer for PvP - alas it wasn't.
However a change that was made for PvP is mission targets. If you have a "kill traders" mission, then CMDRs will show as mission targets - so an actual in game reason to murder.
Apart from that, right from the onset of the game it was clear that the game isn't PvP focused.

I feel I've said this a lot to you, but please do browse "The Wall of Information" in my Sig.
All the Kickstarter info is there, comments from the Devs and even DBOBE saying he does not see ED as a PvP game.




I've never been insulted by PvE'ers, but I have by PvP'ers on these forums and on Reddit.
Works both ways.



And you can. Nothing is stopping you.



I'm sorry, I really am - but you're not the first to say this and been left disappointed.
Every time a big update comes out, we get a flood of posts from PvP'ers who are upset new stuff either messes with PvP or breaks it even more.




That is the exact purpose of the BGS - PC & Mac / XBox and PS4 can all participate in the same attacks, same defence, all be a part of the same universe.
( ^^ This is on the wall, it's a feature).

A "pirate" group decided to stay in their private PG to attack the Mobius group (UA bombing) - CMDRs from all over and multiple platforms were all able to get involved in defending.
The Mobius forums came alive with activity. I've never seen it so busy.
Then they attacked back.

It was amazing.




Yup, same song and dance - that's how I built "The Wall of Information" and why I built it.
Also, it's getting quieter and quieter. Due to people understanding that ED wasn't build for competitive PvP, it was built for casual players.

Things will change and I believe both parties will be happy with the result. Cept for a few that dont want open incentivised because you cant PVP(directly) in solo and private.

But I can promise you. There will be changes made to reflect this stuff. And development changes over time in any game. What was good then. May not work 2-3 years down the road. And here we are. As new things are added. Old thing WILL be adjusted.

Have you ever followed a game from beginning to end? I have, World of Warcraft for example, remember when you had to run to every dungeon? Now we have raid finder? Psh, people that suggested making those changes were crucified. Just like I am here. And even the devs said NO, IT TAKES AWAY FROM THE GAME! HURR. Now what?

league of Legends changed its MMR system over time. I think season 2 or 3?

Counter Strike changes its bullet spreads.

There is so much going on with this stuff you dont even know.

But one thing I can guarantee is change. Dont get too comfortable with the solo open and private stuff. Those values sooner or later will change one way or another. Like I told you before, its inevitable. Because thats how a developmental timeline works. I couldnt care less what any dev has said in the past. They've all said things in the past that were changed later.

So dont get too hung up on it.

Balancing comes before anything else.

Maybe you should finish your post, then click post, instead of giving us a live stream of you typing it.


I gave you a massive "hint" in the form of the exact reason why people don't watch ED.

Here it is again, slower:

It.
Is.
Not.
Interesting.
To.
Watch.


Watching someone play ED is the most uninteresting experience, because most of ED's interesting aspects are for the player.
Those other two games are fast paced, with a clear discernible ending; I could watch a match of those two games, it's obvious where the interesting content is/will be.

In ED, where should you start watching? There's no clear point where you can expect action or interesting content, and frankly, ED isn't at all interesting to watch, especially if you're not already a player of the game.



If you don't understand the concept, try getting someone who has never played Rocket League to watch a stream of really good players.
Without a point of reference, it's just some people flipping cars around with a ball.
When you've played, you can then understand how skilled these people are, and how difficult some of what they're doing is.


The lack of people watching ED is related to that, but is ultimately because there's not really anything interesting to look at.
When you can provide examples of other games that are basically "turn up to the exact same environment devoid of anything interesting and perform combat that is equally uninteresting", that have thousands of viewers, then that would be a relevant counter point.

Then dont watch it. Meanwhile im getting PAID SUCKA.

Also lots of people play different games and stay because that streamer is on. It does not matter what game they play.

This is just like talking to people with no PVP experience. You're trying to tell me something you have no experience in. Sorry. But youre wrong my dude.

 

[Jockey79]

But I can promise you.

No, you cannot "promise" me anything.
Because you know nothing about this game, it's history or its direction.
As you've refused to learn it or even look at it.

Have you ever followed a game from beginning to end? I have, World of Warcraft for example,

Bad example - as it hasn't ended.
So there is no way you've followed it "from beginning to end"

I did follow Planetside from beginning to end however.
I was in the Beta, I was there launch day and I was there the day they turned the server off.

It's core game never changed.
It's network solution never changed.

Sure they added stuff, they tweaked stuff.
But they didn't remove core features. They didn't even remove Core Combat and trust, they should have. But they didn't.

Counter Strike changes its bullet spreads.

Tweaking something, is not removing core features the game released with.
Apples and oranges here.

There is so much going on with this stuff you dont even know.

I know what Fronteir have said they will do and what they have done - and none of it supports your wishful thinking.
Again, go look at the history of the game, look at recent Dev streams and look at how they bring out new content - it's all based on the mode system.

Balancing comes before anything else.

But what you call balance is subjective to you.
You want things skewered towards PvP, in a game not built for it - that isn't "balance", that's favouritism.

 

[Roybe]

Things will change and I believe both parties will be happy with the result. <snip>
But youre wrong my dude.

The fundamentals of the game will not change. It is the design....what is being discussed is akin to the loss of using skills within WoW, and advocating for a first person shooter instead. You are advocating for a fundamental change to the games basic design...in short...it's not going to happen.

Can there be changes to make PVP something more? Maybe....but it's not going to be at the cost of the 'modes'/matchmaking system. I would love to see anyone with a bounty stuck out in Open. Except they can set the games settings so they never see anyone there...see the problem? See why it can't be fixed?

 

[EvE4evah]

Oh but it WILL change.

Either the game evolves and the Devs become willing to take risks outside of the original backstarter ideas, or it will be forever stale and lifeless. As it is right now.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

No, you cannot "promise" me anything.
Because you know nothing about this game, it's history or its direction.
As you've refused to learn it or even look at it.



Bad example - as it hasn't ended.
So there is no way you've followed it "from beginning to end"

I did follow Planetside from beginning to end however.
I was in the Beta, I was there launch day and I was there the day they turned the server off.

It's core game never changed.
It's network solution never changed.

Sure they added stuff, they tweaked stuff.
But they didn't remove core features. They didn't even remove Core Combat and trust, they should have. But they didn't.



Tweaking something, is not removing core features the game released with.
Apples and oranges here.



I know what Fronteir have said they will do and what they have done - and none of it supports your wishful thinking.
Again, go look at the history of the game, look at recent Dev streams and look at how they bring out new content - it's all based on the mode system.



But what you call balance is subjective to you.
You want things skewered towards PvP, in a game not built for it - that isn't "balance", that's favouritism.

Whatever you say man. You can argue till you're blue in the face. But changes are coming. Its absurd to think they wont.

Elite looking to grow. Not stall out. And they will do what they have to make that happen.

They may not be in direct competition with shall I say other games? But the fans are. And if they want micro transactions, xpacs to be bought ect. They are going to learn they are in competition REAL QUICK.

I compare it the old WWF and WCW days. The monday night wars with professional wrestling in the 90s.

And guess who won? The FANS. So you bet your bottom dollar there will be changes.

Please stop lying to yourself. You're going to be severely disappointed.

 

[Roybe]

Oh but it WILL change.

Either the game evolves and the Devs become willing to take risks outside of the original backstarter ideas, or it will be forever stale and lifeless. As it is right now.

We keep trying to tell people, but they keep ignoring us. It won't change...we promise!

 

[DevCMDR]

Things will change and I believe both parties will be happy with the result. Cept for a few that dont want open incentivised because you cant PVP(directly) in solo and private.

But I can promise you. There will be changes made to reflect this stuff. And development changes over time in any game. What was good then. May not work 2-3 years down the road. And here we are. As new things are added. Old thing WILL be adjusted.

Have you ever followed a game from beginning to end? I have, World of Warcraft for example, remember when you had to run to every dungeon? Now we have raid finder? Psh, people that suggested making those changes were crucified. Just like I am here. And even the devs said NO, IT TAKES AWAY FROM THE GAME! HURR. Now what?

league of Legends changed its MMR system over time. I think season 2 or 3?

Counter Strike changes its bullet spreads.

There is so much going on with this stuff you dont even know.

But one thing I can guarantee is change. Dont get too comfortable with the solo open and private stuff. Those values sooner or later will change one way or another. Like I told you before, its inevitable. Because thats how a developmental timeline works. I couldnt care less what any dev has said in the past. They've all said things in the past that were changed later.

So dont get too hung up on it.

Balancing comes before anything else.



Then dont watch it. Meanwhile im getting PAID SUCKA.

Also lots of people play different games and stay because that streamer is on. It does not matter what game they play.

This is just like talking to people with no PVP experience. You're trying to tell me something you have no experience in. Sorry. But youre wrong my dude.

Just finish your post. Then click post.
Same with your edits.
It's not hard.



Okay, so you're again referencing examples that have no direct correlation, or even any central theme.

WoW is a game made exclusively for profit, ED is a game that Braben wants to play.

MMR isn't a finalised concept anywhere, because... I'm not even going to bother on this one. You're not going to read it, it's long and complex.
Suffice to say, there is no matchmaking system in the world, to date, that is complete. There's just "tolerable".


Why do you think I don't have experience watching streams? Or being a streamer?
I have significantly more experience in gaming communities generally than you, I just don't want to bring what I do for a living into this.



To be frank, I think you're an idiot who isn't even reading the posts he's responding to.
If you were reading them, you'd already have the answers to comments you just made here.


What a waste of time.

 

[Roybe]

Whatever you say man. You can argue till you're blue in the face. But changes are coming. Its absurd to think they wont.

Elite looking to grow. Not stall out. And they will do what they have to make that happen.

They may not be in direct competition with shall I say other games? But the fans are. And if they want micro transactions, xpacs to be bought ect. They are going to learn they are in competition REAL QUICK.

I compare it the old WWF and WCW days. The monday night wars with professional wrestling in the 90s.

And guess who won? The FANS. So you bet your bottom dollar there will be changes.

Please stop lying to yourself. You're going to be severely disappointed.

I haven't been yet....but there are thousands of PVP players out there that are!

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

The fundamentals of the game will not change. It is the design....what is being discussed is akin to the loss of using skills within WoW, and advocating for a first person shooter instead. You are advocating for a fundamental change to the games basic design...in short...it's not going to happen.

Can there be changes to make PVP something more? Maybe....but it's not going to be at the cost of the 'modes'/matchmaking system. I would love to see anyone with a bounty stuck out in Open. Except they can set the games settings so they never see anyone there...see the problem? See why it can't be fixed?

You always come back to this one topic. Im glad you bring it up though. Because now, its something that will be added to balance. You think EVE or other multiplayers games didnt have the same problem? Fdev can fix this later. As a matter of fact updating servers is something thats ALWAYS on a developers list for changes.

 

[Roybe]

You always come back to this one topic. Im glad you bring it up though. Because now, its something that will be added to balance. You think EVE or other multiplayers games didnt have the same problem? Fdev can fix this later. As a matter of fact updating servers is something thats ALWAYS on a developers list for changes.

Until you understand how the game works, server side, and client side...you cannot understand the problems you are asking to fix...most of them are design choices and considered features....you are basically advocating to turn WoW into a FPS.....

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Just finish your post. Then click post.
Same with your edits.
It's not hard.



Okay, so you're again referencing examples that have no direct correlation, or even any central theme.

WoW is a game made exclusively for profit, ED is a game that Braben wants to play.

MMR isn't a finalised concept anywhere, because... I'm not even going to bother on this one. You're not going to read it, it's long and complex.
Suffice to say, there is no matchmaking system in the world, to date, that is complete. There's just "tolerable".


Why do you think I don't have experience watching streams? Or being a streamer?
I have significantly more experience in gaming communities generally than you, I just don't want to bring what I do for a living into this.



To be frank, I think you're an idiot who isn't even reading the posts he's responding to.
If you were reading them, you'd already have the answers to comments you just made here.


What a waste of time.

Then go somewhere else we wont miss you

But before you go check out my youtube and make sure you subscribe. There is a video on there made just for people that dont like me. Have fun!

Until you understand how the game works, server side, and client side...you cannot understand the problems you are asking to fix...most of them are design choices and considered features....

Its okay. It will be changed over time.

okay got to go now. Real life calls. Listen it was fun talking with you all. Been a pleasure. It really has.

but for the love of god. Dont get hung up on things never changing. You only set your self up for disappointment.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Updating servers in a production environment is pretty much the last thing on a development change list.

 

[EvE4evah]

We keep trying to tell people, but they keep ignoring us. It won't change...we promise!

Yeah but no. Just take a stroll around the Exploration subforums. You think only the (small) PvP crowd is discontent? Wishful thinking.

 

[DevCMDR]

Then go somewhere else we wont miss you

But before you go check out my youtube and make sure you subscribe. There is a video on there made just for people that dont like me. Have fun!



Its okay. It will be changed over time.

okay got to go now. Real life calls. Listen it was fun talking with you all. Been a pleasure. It really has.

but for the love of god. Dont get hung up on things never changing. You only set your self up for disappointment.

Lol, "Go to my Youtube channel", meanwhile, no link to Youtube channel in sight.


Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Jockey79]

Whatever you say man. You can argue till you're blue in the face. But changes are coming. Its absurd to think they wont.

Expansions, more content, game tweaks - yup, they always come.
But removal of core features, or fundamental game changes. Nope.

Only 1 game ever went through a massive overhaul like that;

Star Wars Galaxies; New Game Experience.

And erm, where is that game now?
What happened after the NGE?

Devs wont make drastic changes, it's been done and didn't work.

And guess who won? The FANS. So you bet your bottom dollar there will be changes.

And who are the "FANS" here;

Oh that's right, the people who played the previous games..... the SINGLE player games.
They backed the Kickstarter, they buy the cosmetics and season pass - the fans are supporting the game.

PvP'ers keep leaving, not spending money - and only come back to moan with every content update.

Please stop lying to yourself. You're going to be severely disappointed.

You know how many PvP'ers have said this.... before getting bored and leaving. Game still has it's core features, I'm not disappointed.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Lol, "Go to my Youtube channel", meanwhile, no link to Youtube channel in sight.


Thanks for proving my point.

You asked for it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keKg2uGQIuM

Now tell me how small and insignificant I am. Cause you're so much better. I do this for fun.

oh yeah make sure you click the thumbs down button so I know you were there. Thanks!

 

[EvE4evah]

Just finish your post. Then click post.
Same with your edits.
It's not hard.



Okay, so you're again referencing examples that have no direct correlation, or even any central theme.

WoW is a game made exclusively for profit, ED is a game that Braben wants to play.

MMR isn't a finalised concept anywhere, because... I'm not even going to bother on this one. You're not going to read it, it's long and complex.
Suffice to say, there is no matchmaking system in the world, to date, that is complete. There's just "tolerable".


Why do you think I don't have experience watching streams? Or being a streamer?
I have significantly more experience in gaming communities generally than you, I just don't want to bring what I do for a living into this.



To be frank, I think you're an idiot who isn't even reading the posts he's responding to.
If you were reading them, you'd already have the answers to comments you just made here.


What a waste of time.

First of all, your last paragraph violates forum rules. No sniping.

Then, any game with the scope of ED needs money, to develop, to balance, to fix, in other words to pay the workers and pay for other games the company wishes to launch.

BTW where's this "Braben's view" that people talk about so much? Haven't met it anywhere in the game…

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Expansions, more content, game tweaks - yup, they always come.
But removal of core features, or fundamental game changes. Nope.

Only 1 game ever went through a massive overhaul like that;

Star Wars Galaxies; New Game Experience.

And erm, where is that game now?
What happened after the NGE?

Devs wont make drastic changes, it's been done and didn't work.



And who are the "FANS" here;

Oh that's right, the people who played the previous games..... the SINGLE player games.
They backed the Kickstarter, they buy the cosmetics and season pass - the fans are supporting the game.

PvP'ers keep leaving, not spending money - and only come back to moan with every content update.




You know how many PvP'ers have said this.... before getting bored and leaving. Game still has it's core features, I'm not disappointed.

Were not in kansas anymore dorthy. Its 2017. YOUR WORLD IS ABOUT TO GET ROCKED SON!

K srsly gotta go. peace.

 

[Roybe]

Yeah but no. Just take a stroll around the Exploration subforums. You think only the (small) PvP crowd is discontent? Wishful thinking.

...anbd there are promised upgrades coming to exploration...but no sign of PVP upgrades.....