Modes [Suggestion] How to incentivise open play and make it relevant

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Thing is - ISP's make it easier and easier for Joe Sixpack to get online with no knowledge or training.

That's all fine and good - but there are obvious pitfalls to being online with no knowledge or training - especially when the kit the ISP gives you is hoping to reach bog-standard.
 
Hello, Lateralus. :)

After following all of this thread - and particularly after reading That90skid's posts - I think your original Suggestion (assuming anyone still remembers it) really needs to do more to address the core of the issue.

I fly around in Mobius, on a casual basis. I'm a "lone wolf" (for a given value of wolf), rather than playing with others in any more direct sense.

I've enjoyed very lightly playing the BGS, doing stuff for the PF in Shinrarta Dezhra - or at least I did until they decided to unexpectedly disappear in a puff of logic. I haven't been by in a while, but I did make a point of helping to poke a few little holes in the Code's PSF, after the Mobius incident. I daresay I'm not the only one.

I don't care about being griefed (or MHed or PvPed or whatever you might want to call it), not any more. I'm long past the point where it mattered. It made me mental for a while, but these days, I'm quite sanguine about the idea. I get obliterated by NPCs every so often, I crash my ship into the sides of planets... hell, I'm quite capable of drunkenly griefing myself without ever leaving the station. I'm not going to be fussed about getting blitzed by a PvPer, one way or the other.

(If an easy escape's not available, I think the best thing is to sit, drop shields and wait quietly for them to finish. If I can't save my ship, I'll save some time, instead. Not to be too rude, but the last time I played in Open, I could swear the other guy was flying with just the one hand while shooting my Asp to bits. It certainly took him long enough. :p )

I can't directly speak for anyone but myself, but I'm inclined to think that an awful lot of us aren't avoiding Open because of any gameplay aspects, but simply because they don't want to play in the same space as people they perceive to be unpleasant or unlikeable in some way.

I'm personally not keen on the Code's murderous-S&M-traffic-warden mentality. I'm not keen on the self-proclaimed murderhobos who randomly shoot other players for no detectable reason at all. I'm very definitely not keen on Sugarplum Boy's way of talking to people.

So I generally stay in Mobius, where I don't have to think about any of you. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's how I feel. I hope my honesty here does not cause you to feel too upset.

The point of all of that is this: if you want me - and anyone else in my shoes - to come to Open, where we have to deal with you, then you're going to have to find more compelling reasons than a frankly-feeble 25% bonus.

As it stands, I suspect many of us, if not most, would simply begin to completely ignore the BGS - an outcome which would certainly make it easier for you to make your PSF bigger, but will otherwise give you next to nothing in the way of improved PvP gameplay - at least until your PSF reaches another PSF's borders, which would likely result in those supporting players putting up a token resistance for a short time, before quietly leaving your game, just like everyone else. Or perhaps that's enough for you?

Lateralus, you always present your ideas well, but I would suggest that you really want to be much more inventive and imaginative than this.
Best of luck, old chap. :)
 
Again, ya'll can report me. I was met with hostility because my views are different. And my views are shared by many others before I even got deep into this game.

However I did not know those views until I discovered them for myself, And thought I could help give some proper feedback for this game. Based off my experience and working with WoW. Addressing the conflict without Bias that benefits PVE and PVP players.

Then I was pointed to the hotel california dump thread where. Obviously there was a call for it, but it is a major problem. By a larger part of the community they spoke up.

Everything I thought I had came up with on my own was all presented before.

And now when I come here showing and asking for balance about this stuff. Just like OP did in his post. I was nothing but criticized and crucified by this community. So I stood up for myself against it. Using video evidence in which the OP has used himself. And other evidence about certain individuals running people away from these forums because they shut down anyone's views that oppose them.

I can take these same arguments to reddit however. Where more people engage in this conversation. And where most of the population of this community reside. It sure aint here. But this is also where Fdev pulls most its feedback. So here I am.

I knew I was going to be met with hostility because my views are different. There is a reason people told me not to come to these forums because of its toxicity. Being here and on reddit is night and day. Partly because no one wants to deal with what happens around here.

Everything that happened today was a prime example of this. And evidence backs that up. I didnt come to war with an empty gun. And Ive PROVEN every point ive made in various ways.

So if I get banned so be it. But atleast I tried to fight for a game I love and stand up against some of the people around here.

Changes need to be made. And the community reflects this. This is a topic that will be around forever until fixed. And believe me they want to fix it more than you can imagine. No one leaves a dump thread like hotel california open for 5 years for no reason.

You cant silence us all. And those threads prove that. So does reddit, and anyone else here that was banned for having a different view. They may have ultimately said screw this and broke some rules. But chances are there was a reason that was done. Which brings me to back to what I said in the first place. I was met with nothing but hostility from day 1. And it wasnt from "PVPers".

o7 Dudes.
 
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You may want to browse the SOG threads

Ok, I'd never looked at the original Hotel California threads, and in looking at the first one, I am somewhat more hopeful.

The first post has a bunch of dev quotes there are really in line with the OP.

Almost all the quotes in the first post are along the lines of "not at this time" and "maybe in the future". None of them are are definite no to the OP type of functionality.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/90583-The-Solo-vs-Open-vs-Groups-Thread-See-new-thread

Since the thread is locked (and the referenced threads) it is too much of a pain for me to try and quote all of them here .
 
LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE ASKING FOR CHANGE. A WHOLE LOT OF THEM. ... (posts about majority) Yeah on these forums. Because you shut everyone out. Go to reddit and its the complete opposite.

Reddit is not a good indicator of the majority of the ED playerbase. When the public vote on ship transfer was happening, Reddit seemed convinced instant was the best way. These forums predicted the other way, but both were dwarfed by the silent majority who do not use either, and voted for delayed ship transfer.

Just saying that you need to be aware of being in an echo-chamber, and skewing your reality of how an entire demographic feels.
 
I can't directly speak for anyone but myself, but I'm inclined to think that an awful lot of us aren't avoiding Open because of any gameplay aspects, but simply because they don't want to play in the same space as people they perceive to be unpleasant or unlikeable in some way.

I'm personally not keen on the Code's murderous-S&M-traffic-warden mentality. I'm not keen on the self-proclaimed murderhobos who randomly shoot other players for no detectable reason at all. I'm very definitely not keen on Sugarplum Boy's way of talking to people.

So I generally stay in Mobius, where I don't have to think about any of you. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's how I feel. I hope my honesty here does not cause you to feel too upset.

Believe me when I tell you that I really feel you. But I feel the other side too.

That's why I say that solo and private modes should NOT dissapear. Even I think that proggress should be kept in all the modes equaly (that is reputation, money, ships bought, systems explored...) so players can fly in open mode when they were really prepared for it.

But playing a multiplayer war (yeah: war) from solo mode is out of logic (and is not funny for thousand of players too)

I think that people like you can't see other faces of the cube. For example, some moths ago I was in one of the 10 first factions that moved to the second bubble. You have NO IDEA about all the work behind that, all the diplomacy, dialogue.... all the ideas that we could play but were not availables because of the hidden players.
For example, all factionsl had a group of players focused on security in every system (there was the Colonia Militia, where I was for a time too).

Now I ask you: what for?
We soon understood the answer: for nothing. So... what can I do in Colonia? Nothing again: it is a f**ing desert. All the game around CEI is played in a discord server.

I can tell you that out there, the 90% of players factions want to "defend the galaxy". There are other factions of players with awesome ideas that have died because of the hidden players.
For example: a group of spectacles with ships, a faction of medics who wanted to block systems in outbreak by talking all the people who go into it while they were working on erradicate the disease. Hell... even a Circus!!!!

There are hundred and hundred of factions that fight against criminals for every griefer in game and with funny and great ideas for all the players fun.
What do you do? you focus only in 4 griefers (and most of them are not real griefers) and hide in private groups.

I was flying only in open mode the last year. I was even in Mobius before for a while and in Mobius I was killed 9 times in a month while in open I was killed none in a whole year (and sometimes they tried too)
You are running away from the people who can really help you and you are denying them the oportunity to do it too by creating a logical and more real (and funny) enviroment for all of us (even you).

I know the song "People always kill me", but what really happens is that they are killed once or twice and then they move to solo mode FOREVER.

In open mode, there are more kind people than annoying people. Even pirats offer me a nice situation from time to time.(thank you to all players that make me laugh so often by the way :D)
But, do you prefer to play solo in the galaxy? Ok, up to you. But, please, do it without affecting other players with your actions in the same way you hide in solo mode to not be affected by theirs.

Now let's see some personal experiences about BGS and PP.

When I was in a faction hardly focused on BGS, all players who came to our systems in open (only a few) found a player who play their role, ask them about what were they doing in the system and asked them for delivering the commodities where we needed it.
100% of them did it.
Later we had a group of players who always came to our systems for minning. One day we even offered them scort for going to a dangerous RES. We were killing pirats where they were minning.

From my experience, only those groups of players with malicious intentions against us came to our systems from private groups by bombing stations with UA's, undermining our influence, creating civil unrest by killing civile npc's... etc.
All and everyone of them.
I even once saw a group of players who came to Mobius looking for help to attack a faction of enemy players saying they were a bunch of griefers (I later found out that it was a lie)

I can tell you hundreds of really great stories before all this "open is full of griefers" fever started though, all of it in open mode. While all the frustrating and annoying situations allways came from hidden players.

About PP... what is PP really now? Trading papers.
Is it a mechanic issue? No, it isn't. It is that players hide in solo mode again when they go in enemy systems.
So, right now, PP is only "played" to farm modules by trading tons and tons of... papers while thousand of players who are genuily interested on playing this mechanic are doomed to be the "kings of paper traders", "fighting" against millions of ghosts who only want the primactic shields.

I could continue but I think this post is long enough.

Please stop condemn the open mode, stop condemn all combat player (most of them wanna help others), stop thinking that BGS players are always PvE players in the same way that all combat players are PvP players. And stop thinking that all those who don't fit weapons in their ships are better people than those who wanna play all the aspects of this game because, from my experience mainly in Mobius, they are usually much more manipulative and selfish people than those who just enter in a system in open mode and shoot a player.

Think about it.

PS: underlined parts are a good summary of what I intend to express in this post.
 
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Again, ya'll can report me. I was met with hostility because my views are different. And my views are shared by many others before I even got deep into this game.

However I did not know those views until I discovered them for myself, And thought I could help give some proper feedback for this game. Based off my experience and working with WoW. Addressing the conflict without Bias that benefits PVE and PVP players.

Then I was pointed to the hotel california dump thread where. Obviously there was a call for it, but it is a major problem. By a larger part of the community they spoke up.

Everything I thought I had came up with on my own was all presented before.

And now when I come here showing and asking for balance about this stuff. Just like OP did in his post. I was nothing but criticized and crucified by this community. So I stood up for myself against it. Using video evidence in which the OP has used himself. And other evidence about certain individuals running people away from these forums because they shut down anyone's views that oppose them.

I can take these same arguments to reddit however. Where more people engage in this conversation. And where most of the population of this community reside. It sure aint here. But this is also where Fdev pulls most its feedback. So here I am.

I knew I was going to be met with hostility because my views are different. There is a reason people told me not to come to these forums because of its toxicity. Being here and on reddit is night and day. Partly because no one wants to deal with the that happens around here.

Everything that happened today was a prime example of this. And evidence backs that up. I didnt come to war with an empty gun. And Ive PROVEN every point ive made in various ways.

So if I get banned so be it. But atleast I tried to fight for a game I love and stand up against some of the people around here.

Changes need to be made. And the community reflects this. This is a topic that will be around forever until fixed. And believe me they want to fix it more than you can imagine. No one leaves a dump thread like hotel california open for 5 years for no reason.

You cant silence us all. And those threads prove that. So does reddit, and anyone else here that was banned for having a different view. They may have ultimately said screw this and broke some rules. But chances are there was a reason that was done. Which brings me to back to what I said in the first place. I was met with nothing but hostility from day 1. And it wasnt from "PVPers".

o7 Dudes.

There's no conspiracy or bias, there's just some people getting upset then nasty, then banned for what they said and subsequently blaming everyone else for it. Reaching for victim status, calling peoples playstyle into question, name calling, demands the game be altered for other players against their will or predictions of doom are not going to work.

I've asked this question a lot and I've never had an answer, you want more people in open you want people to support what you regard as improvements to PVP and open.

What's in it for me ?.
 
Again, ya'll can report me. I was met with hostility because my views are different.

You were met with "hostility" because of your attitude towards others.

Honestly he can comment all he wants. Its holding the game back from growth. Period.
GAME. SET. MATCH.
Well the design sucks. And the numbers and the community show that.
ITS A VERY LARGE PORTION OF THE COMMUNITIES OPINION. NUMBERS SHOW DECLINE BECAUSE OF IT. Thread pop up everywhere. And hotel california lives strong for years because of it. Use your gimballed eyes.

And these are just a few of your gems.

You are dismissive of everyone who does not agree with you and you act like you speak for everyone.
If I were a suspicious person I'd say you were an alt of Manjavash. Because you act just like him.

People have pointed out again and again, you give a boost to open - people can just tweak a few network settings and play open without ever seeing another player or only seeing friends.
What is the point in adding something that can be bypassed user end.

It is a waste of Dev time, time they could use to fix bugs, tweak game balance or make new content.
 
Ok, I'd never looked at the original Hotel California threads, and in looking at the first one, I am somewhat more hopeful.

The first post has a bunch of dev quotes there are really in line with the OP.

Almost all the quotes in the first post are along the lines of "not at this time" and "maybe in the future". None of them are are definite no to the OP type of functionality.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/90583-The-Solo-vs-Open-vs-Groups-Thread-See-new-thread

Since the thread is locked (and the referenced threads) it is too much of a pain for me to try and quote all of them here .

And since that thread was started, I built "The Wall of Information" (linked in my sig below)

With more recent comments from Frontier Devs being

From the initial inception of the game we have considered all play modes are equally valid choices. While we are aware that some players disagree, this hasn't changed for us.

Michael

Dev Update 6th August 2015 (https://community.elitedangerous.com/node/248);

Dev Update (6th Aug 2015) Last Paragraph said:
What we are doing is new in many ways, both technically and in terms of how we are realizing our long term ambitions for Elite Dangerous. As we evolve the game we are trying to give the best value we can to both existing and new players, for the long term benefit of everyone. That’s why we’ve worked hard to keep backwards compatibility for the Elite Dangerous: Horizons season, and are continuing to release updates for ‘season one’ players. Everyone will continue to fly in the same galaxy, and be impacted by, participate in and help to drive the same events.

(I added the bold / underline in the quote to highlight the last line)

These are the most recent quotes I've kept. As there is no point keep adding more of the same.
As for Frontiers actions on the matter;

XBox was released with only Open and Solo, but after public outcry from the XBox community Private Groups were added and are fully supported.
PS4 was released with Solo and Private Groups there from the start.

All content added since I built the wall has been added to work within the structure of the mode system.

So, to recap;

From the Kickstarter in (2012) to this very moment (2017) - Frontier have said and done everything they can to defend and support the mode system.
The only time anyone said anything to the contrary was Sandro.
He did openly muse over adding bonuses to Open for Power Play only.
But after we explained to him that he really should understand how peer to peer networking works and that we'd still get the bonus without the extra people, he dropped the idea.
He even said sorry for bringing it up publicly on his next live stream a week later. (Some of us were a bit blunt over how we explained the massive flaw in his idea)
 
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Everything from a guy using the BGS in private and solo to attack a player group. Admitting hes afraid to come into open play cause he'll get griefed and ganked. Or DEFENDED AGAINST.
.

Blimey I think I will go bang my head on a brick wall some more...

If a single player is pursuing BGS play against an entire faction - in *any* mode - in order to "DEFEND AGAINST" it all that you need to do is play the BGS. A single player from your faction - playing in *any mode* - should be sufficient to counter the activity of a single player, should it not?

Is there something difficult to understand here?


I suspect that the response might be something along the lines of:

Play the BGS? Why should *we* have to play the BGS in order to defend against BGS activity on our faction? That's not how I want to play. I shouldn't be "forced" to play the BGS if I don't *want* to. I want to PvP instead, already.

Does this not sound familiar?

If it weren't bring so deliberately and stubbornly obtusely ignored I'd be laughing, but it just gets frustrating that PvP combat advicates want to play "their way" by forcing others to become their targets unwillingly and yet obtusely refuse to engage in the optimum gameplay style to counter a specific threat because they are unwilling to do so.

This is the very definition of hypocrisy, is it not?

Pot,
This is kettle,
Colour check,
Over.
 
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Blimey I think I will go bang my head on a brick wall some more...

If a single player is pursuing BGS play against an entire faction - in *any* mode - in order to "DEFEND AGAINST" it all that you need to do is play the BGS. A single player from your faction - playing in *any mode* - should be sufficient to counter the activity of a single player, should it not?

Is there something difficult to understand here?


I suspect that the response might be something along the lines of:

Play the BGS? Why should *we* have to play the BGS in order to defend against BGS activity on our faction? That's not how I want to play. I shouldn't be "forced" to play the BGS if I don't *want* to. I want to PvP instead, already.

Does this not sound familiar?

If it weren't bring so deliberately and stubbornly obtusely ignored I'd be laughing, but it just gets frustrating that PvP combat advicates want to play "their way" by forcing others to become their targets unwillingly and yet obtusely refuse to engage in the optimum gameplay style to counter a specific threat because they are unwilling to do so.

This is the very definition of hypocrisy, is it not?

Pot,
This is kettle,
Colour check,
Over.

Nonsense.

PowerPlay is very tied to Combat. Now, if you kill an NPC, 30 Merits. If you kill an enemy power CMDR, ZERO Merits?! (used to be 1 Merit) Where's the logic?

Since it's very tied to combat, shouldn't opposite powers be fully allowed to DIRECTLY attack/defend against others? Instead of this boring indirect PvP we have?

Also, fighting against an invincible, invisible enemy, who might be in the same system, right next to you, but in Solo/PG?

Talk about hypocrisy.
 
No, not nonsense at all, and you know it.

You *know* I wasn't writing anything at all to do with PP. I was writing specifically about the BGS as a whole, of which PP is but a very small part.

In sum:

BGS attacks are best DEFENDED against by BGS counterplay.

Direct consequence:

Calling for direct combat PvP to be made compulsory/unavoidable because BGS play is unavoidable is a failed line of reasoning even before it begins.

Indirect conclusion:

Forcing players into Open is also an argument with zero credibility because it is demanding that others accept play which is not what they want in order to address a claim that some have to play not as they want. Clearly this is ridiculous.

Yours Aye

Mark H
 
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BGS attacks are best DEFENDED against by BGS counterplay
It is not if you include combat to the equation.

For example if 5 players are doing their actions in solo mode from 18h to 22h. The faction have to play those ours doing the same plus extra hours if they want to rise their influence up a little.
If they do it in open mode, the attacked players just need to play from 18h to 22h, stoping their actions while only one player do missions.

Now think about PP too.
Do you get it now?

And I don't talk about the inmersive face of the situation.
 
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No trolling or suggestions here, just sharing a thought.

One of the first MMO's I played - back in 2001 - was Anarchy Online, where the game universe was set on a fictional planed called Rubi-Ka. It had only one game mode, and a PVP system where you had "agression suppression gas" in cities and other areas, where you could not attack each other. Then you had several levels of PVP interactions, where in some zones you could only attack people from other factions, and somewhere you could attack everybody.

ED could have done a single game mode with free-for-all in anarchy systems and an authority response in others systems based on level of security, not giving people any choice. However this is strictly hypothetical since nobody would accept going to a single game mode at this point; Reading this thread has made that pretty obvious ;)
 
No trolling or suggestions here, just sharing a thought.

One of the first MMO's I played - back in 2001 - was Anarchy Online, where the game universe was set on a fictional planed called Rubi-Ka. It had only one game mode, and a PVP system where you had "agression suppression gas" in cities and other areas, where you could not attack each other. Then you had several levels of PVP interactions, where in some zones you could only attack people from other factions, and somewhere you could attack everybody.

ED could have done a single game mode with free-for-all in anarchy systems and an authority response in others systems based on level of security, not giving people any choice. However this is strictly hypothetical since nobody would accept going to a single game mode at this point; Reading this thread has made that pretty obvious ;)

They wouldn't have attracted as many customers with a restrictive pitch, the modes give different play-options to different types of player. If they had done that the game may never have been made.
 
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