Modes [Suggestion] How to incentivise open play and make it relevant

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

We do not disagree with good ideas...just ideas that cannot occur within the game....you have to accept the way the game is fundamentally designed...and let your requests come following those design descisions...

You mean like those fundamental changes that were announced yesterday. Oh and player guilds. They probably wont take anything away from anybody. And they are doing a great job with that. But they are ADDING things. Maybe there will be player guild reputations that are influenced within systems instead. But trust me, they already had this on the working table. They are miles ahead of what we see here. Trust me they will make changes to complement player interaction.

While leaving everything in solo and private intact. So that way the single player still get their benefits. Everyone wins. No one loses. You get the open risk and reward program. And were also getting some of the same changes minus the multiplayer aspect in solo and private too.

So this is really neat. And I cant wait to see how they handle player interaction on a Numbers and Influence level. Because lets face it. They arent NPC's. And frontier recognizes this especially with this latest Crime and Punishment changes they are putting on the table.

Also, currently there is nothing to fight over. But there will be. They are miles ahead of us here. And they wouldn't be jumping into this without knowing that.

There are a lot of changes behind the scenes as with any developer. But trust me the understand they call for objectives. We need to get the foundations laid first.

 

[Roybe]

Sorry, but I don't follow. Can you explain a bit more, please?

As PVP people play harder at their chosen profession...they will be moved out of the bigger systems into anarchy systems...they will have to move their 'homes' to these systems....to save time getting to their 'cold' ships.

As a PVP group leader, I would be looking for a place nearest the prisons to have a secondary place of operations in case stuff goes south.

So basically, the design removes PVP players into enclave systems...which means they are mostly avoidable...

And none of this does much to bring people to Open....

 

[Roybe]

You mean like those fundamental changes that were announced yesterday. Oh and player guilds. They probably wont take anything away from anybody. And they are doing a great job with that. But they are ADDING things. Maybe there will be player guild reputations that are influenced within systems instead. But trust me, they already had this on the working table. They are miles ahead of what we see here. Trust me they will make changes to complement player interaction.

While leaving everything in solo and private intact. So that way the single player still get their benefits. Everyone wins. No one loses. You get the open risk and reward program. And were also getting some of the same changes minus the multiplayer aspect in solo and private too.

So this is really neat. And I cant wait to see how they handle player interaction on a Numbers and Influence level. Because lets face it. They arent NPC's. And frontier recognizes this especially with this latest Crime and Punishment changes they are putting on the table.

Also, currently there is nothing to fight over. But there will be. They are miles ahead of us here. And they wouldn't be jumping into this without knowing that.

There are a lot of changes behind the scenes as with any developer. But trust me the understand the call for objectives. We need to get the foundations laid first.

You are missing the idea of fundamental....these are not fundamental..these are expansions on systems already in place.

A fundamental design choice is p2p....you cannot change a game underway into a client server system.

The flag system/modes....you cannot change these as they are a design decision....they can be added to...but not removed...or equal access changed...

I'm all for updates, upgrades, changes...RL has cut my time down for almost a year now...and I was surprised at the number of changes that have occurred over that time.

You appear to think people in Hotel California are anti-change...I don't know any...we just keep trying to point out that the tact of trying to change the modes equality, or trying to make changes that only work in client/server systems are not going to occur...much of which is what the PVP people come in here trying to talk about....and why most PVP people, once they realize the issue....leave the game. I get it...it's frustrating...PVP is defined weirdly in the game...

I see these changes as an attempt to redirect the PVP players out of the way...maybe focusing them into each other...but there is still no reason to come and be targets for anyone.

Player guilds were something that was advocated for 2 years ago by group leaders in direct contact with the devs....and I am glad to see some work heading in that direction.

 

[Han Zulu]

As PVP people play harder at their chosen profession...they will be moved out of the bigger systems into anarchy systems...they will have to move their 'homes' to these systems....to save time getting to their 'cold' ships.

I think you still can do PvP in any system, if you for instance turn of report crime or go to conflict zones. The new C&P is addressing more of the piracy career and the G&G (gankers and griefers) in the game. Somehow, they need to make G&G less profitable, while maintaining the availability for a piracy career. Which isn't easy. There's a very thin line.

As a PVP group leader, I would be looking for a place nearest the prisons to have a secondary place of operations in case stuff goes south.

So basically, the design removes PVP players into enclave systems...which means they are mostly avoidable...

And none of this does much to bring people to Open....

But bounty hunting is also PvP and war zones as well, and I'm not sure if those things are affected. When you say PvP in your case, it sounds like it's only piracy?

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

You are missing the idea of fundamental....these are not fundamental..these are expansions on systems already in place.

A fundamental design choice is p2p....you cannot change a game underway into a client server system.

The flag system/modes....you cannot change these as they are a design decision....they can be added to...but not removed...or equal access changed...

I'm all for updates, upgrades, changes...RL has cut my time down for almost a year now...and I was surprised at the number of changes that have occurred over that time.

Welp its not joke we need some server fixes. Other games use P2P and PVP dynamics just fine. They can do it here. Have faith my dude.

Its going to be SLOOOOWWWWWWWWW. And thanks okay. Im used to it. But changes are happening now. And thats all that matters. Its exciting!

 

[Roybe]

I think you still can do PvP in any system, if you for instance turn of report crime or go to conflict zones. The new C&P is addressing more of the piracy career and the G&G (gankers and griefers) in the game. Somehow, they need to make G&G less profitable, while maintaining the availability for a piracy career. Which isn't easy. There's a very thin line.


But bounty hunting is also PvP and war zones as well, and I'm not sure if those things are affected. When you say PvP in your case, it sounds like it's only piracy?

Bounty hunting PVP will never occur in this game until they lock the bounty carrier into Open. I would hope anyone flying a 'hot' ship would have that ship locked to Open..and have made a suggestion that it should be.

I, to, am curious how they will allow consensual PVP to occur...I'm pretty sure the current flag system 'report crimes' will be in play.

I would think there would be no reason to distinguish between crimes...piracy was a capital offense historically so weighs down just as much as murder...

Since the devs desire crime in the game...they cannot really be to judgmental or split the hair to finely....

I see minor repercussions for accidentally hitting a ship in a fight...or, steps to criminality over time...but a full time pirate should be just as culpable as a full time murder hobo....

 

[Roybe]

Other games use P2P and PVP dynamics just fine.

Name a few please?

 

[Han Zulu]

Bounty hunting PVP will never occur in this game until they lock the bounty carrier into Open. I'm hoping this will be the case...and have made a suggestion that it should be.

I, to, am curious how they will allow consensual PVP to occur...I'm pretty sure the current flag system 'report crimes' will be in play.

Yes. It'll be interesting to see how it evolves, because the report crime flag isn't foolproof either.

I would think there would be no reason to distinguish between crimes...piracy was a capital offense historically so weighs down just as much as murder...

Since the devs desire crime in the game...they cannot really be to judgmental or split the hair to finely....

I see minor repercussions for accidentally hitting a ship in a fight...or, steps to criminality over time...but a full time pirate should be just as culpable as a full time murder hobo....

The accidental hitting of ships in stations is rather annoying. A couple of times I've been in a station, having my huge beluga, trying to line it up with the mail slot to be able to get out without getting stuck, and someone (NPC or other) bumps into the belly of my ship, and I'm told that be careful. Uh... I really tried to be careful, but it wasn't me officer! Maybe that part of code should check if you're moving or not. It's a moving violation, I assume, not standing still violation.

But yeah, I do understand your concerns. Make sure you make them heard under the new C&P threads.

 

[Rampant]

It would allow FDev to have those exploit places again, with slave trading, smuggling, and such, for higher payouts. You go there. Make more money. But much higher risks. (But it should probably only be in Open)

Being only in Open is a ridiculous viewpoint. Here's why... If, as it has been said, the Security Forces now have a better AI model for a beefier response to Criminality, then so it should also be with NPC Pirates in Anarchy systems.
The viewpoint that I think *must* be fundamental is the issue of balance. Many of you guys when you see the word balance *ONLY* think about strength of weapons and shields and hulls in a PvP-centric way. This leaves the casual gamer nowhere. A gamer who spends only a handful of hours every month cannot ever get *balance* out of the game, even if the game offers the opportunity to do so, because it takes a whole heap of commitment that the casual gamer does not possess to begin with. So *balance* must be viewed from a holistic level over a range of player "ability" (read experience or number of hours free to invest in gaming). The Pro level PvP players get their balance from many hours spent engineering and research of latest meta.
The mid-level players get their balance from basic engineering and occasional forays in Open and try to keep skill of escape rather than fighting back against other players
The basic level players get their balance from Solo or Groups through the game coding, where hostile engagements from NPCs level with the player's combat rank and ship capability.

So the balance for Solo players is that the NPC Pirates they face in Anarchy are a challenge and not a push-over and therefore the changes definitely should *not* be Open only and CGs should definitely *not* be Open only. Ever. Because, let's get in the weeds and be *totally honest* here, not every player has got the full list of Time, Aptitude and Inclination to be a decent combat pilot. When I say decent, I mean relatively "skilled". If a casual gamer cannot get some enjoyment from this leisure time pursuit of playing a computer game, they simply will not play. They simply will not buy the game, pay for new content, or invest in any extras like ship paint, nameplates and lasers. And that - THAT - my friends would be the death of the game. As would excluding them from content. The death of the game.

Is the be-all and end-all of some player's opinions that all players need to be a decent combat pilot or they shouldn't be playing this game?? Truthful answers, please. Your credibility depends upon it.

Yours Aye

Mark H

 

[Roybe]

Yes. It'll be interesting to see how it evolves, because the report crime flag isn't foolproof either.


The accidental hitting of ships in stations is rather annoying. A couple of times I've been in a station, having my huge beluga, trying to line it up with the mail slot to be able to get out without getting stuck, and someone (NPC or other) bumps into the belly of my ship, and I'm told that be careful. Uh... I really tried to be careful, but it wasn't me officer! Maybe that part of code should check if you're moving or not. It's a moving violation, I assume, not standing still violation.

But yeah, I do understand your concerns. Make sure you make them heard under the new C&P threads.

I am sure someone will point it out....

 

[Han Zulu]

Being only in Open is a ridiculous viewpoint. Here's why... If, as it has been said, the Security Forces now have a better AI model for a beefier response to Criminality, then so it should also be with NPC Pirates in Anarchy systems.

Very true. Didn't think of that.

Is the be-all and end-all of some player's opinions that all players need to be a decent combat pilot or they shouldn't be playing this game?? Truthful answers, please. Your credibility depends upon it.

That's been one of my issues with the game the recent year. Most of the updates seem to be focused on combat play, like engineering weapons, defense, shield, hulls, and multicrew for combat, and thargoids to kill. Exploration, trading, mining has been afterthoughts. We can use a experimental effect on a weapon like rail gun to make the weapon into a fuel dump, which is a helpful tool for long distance exploration. But why isn't there an outfitting specific for it? And we use the SRVs gun to shoot rocks to get materials. And there are other similar things. And there are about 10 times more weapons and combat specific upgrades and modules than there are for exploration. So... my issue has been that the game is combat focused. You do trading with combat. Exploration with combat. Mining with a lot of combat. And missions with combat. The only way to avoid combat is to be good at running away. So that's yet another reason why I've been so attracted to Solo, I can play the other modes without having to be focused on combat while doing it.

I am sure someone will point it out....

maybe that someone is ... you?

 

[Roybe]

maybe that someone is ... you?

Nah...those that it will affect the most will have plenty to say...if they will be happy with it...I will, too.

It will be interesting for the BGS crowd as well...since one of the best ways, 'olden tymes' ways to mess with a system was to kill Authority vessels....

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Name a few please?

Final Fantasy, but more important EVE.

Now I havnt played EVE. Nor do I want to. However, I have dabbled in how that game is run. And its server side like Elite, with p2p connections from our side.

Escape from Tarkov is doing the same thing.

The thing is, Elite is using AWS https://aws.amazon.com/solutions/case-studies/frontier-games/

While EVE runs their own stuff.

So, im not some server admin or anything, but as a player. I see the problems. They even see the problems when they stream it. And THATS OKAY!

Because what I see is temporary. They dont like it just as much as WE DONT LIKE IT.

Speculation here, Tencent has recently joined Frontier Developments. Tencent is pretty massive, and they are pretty dang good on the hardware and server sides of things to make stuff work. They work with games like League of Legends, and VR. All sorts of stuff.

So putting two and two together. Or just 1 and 1 being frontier and their severs in general. Even if Tencent has nothing to do with it.

There will be some sort of server fixes in the future. Just like I said these changes we see now that were announced yesterday would be coming.

They share our same views dude. All of ours. If we see it. They have seen it LONG LONG ago. So they know my brother. Priorities first. They have to develop working content to have a reason to manage and maintain servers on their own. All about building foundations man.

Psh there are going to nuke so many memes with this beyond update. If its successful, which it will be. We will see servers later. WoW did it, Tarkov just did it, FF did it. EVERYONE upgrades. Its just maintenance as far as developing goes. But those Amazon servers wont change, until everything else is in place. To the point where thats the main issue. Thats when they pull the trigger.

 

[Han Zulu]

Nah...those that it will affect the most will have plenty to say...if they will be happy with it...I will, too.

It will be interesting for the BGS crowd as well...since one of the best ways, 'olden tymes' ways to mess with a system was to kill Authority vessels....

Yeah. I wonder how the PP will be affected by this.

I've been wanting to play BGS/PP (same thing, right?), but heard that it isn't that great.

 

[Roybe]

Being only in Open is a ridiculous viewpoint. Here's why... If, as it has been said, the Security Forces now have a better AI model for a beefier response to Criminality, then so it should also be with NPC Pirates in Anarchy systems.
The viewpoint that I think *must* be fundamental is the issue of balance. Many of you guys when you see the word balance *ONLY* think about strength of weapons and shields and hulls in a PvP-centric way. This leaves the casual gamer nowhere. A gamer who spends only a handful of hours every month cannot ever get *balance* out of the game, even if the game offers the opportunity to do so, because it takes a whole heap of commitment that the casual gamer does not possess to begin with. So *balance* must be viewed from a holistic level over a range of player "ability" (read experience or number of hours free to invest in gaming). The Pro level PvP players get their balance from many hours spent engineering and research of latest meta.
The mid-level players get their balance from basic engineering and occasional forays in Open and try to keep skill of escape rather than fighting back against other players
The basic level players get their balance from Solo or Groups through the game coding, where hostile engagements from NPCs level with the player's combat rank and ship capability.

So the balance for Solo players is that the NPC Pirates they face in Anarchy are a challenge and not a push-over and therefore the changes definitely should *not* be Open only and CGs should definitely *not* be Open only. Ever. Because, let's get in the weeds and be *totally honest* here, not every player has got the full list of Time, Aptitude and Inclination to be a decent combat pilot. When I say decent, I mean relatively "skilled". If a casual gamer cannot get some enjoyment from this leisure time pursuit of playing a computer game, they simply will not play. They simply will not buy the game, pay for new content, or invest in any extras like ship paint, nameplates and lasers. And that - THAT - my friends would be the death of the game. As would excluding them from content. The death of the game.

Is the be-all and end-all of some player's opinions that all players need to be a decent combat pilot or they shouldn't be playing this game?? Truthful answers, please. Your credibility depends upon it.

Yours Aye

Mark H

FDEv has tried to balance the game with stronger NPC's..and each NPC increase was walked back after a few weeks of entertainment. PVP people and PVE people all cried foul....for different reasons.

Still love MoM™ for trying...and hope someday her all creatures will be allowed their full set of wings.

 

[sovapid]

Being only in Open is a ridiculous viewpoint. Here's why... If, as it has been said, the Security Forces now have a better AI model for a beefier response to Criminality, then so it should also be with NPC Pirates in Anarchy systems.
The viewpoint that I think *must* be fundamental is the issue of balance. Many of you guys when you see the word balance *ONLY* think about strength of weapons and shields and hulls in a PvP-centric way. This leaves the casual gamer nowhere. A gamer who spends only a handful of hours every month cannot ever get *balance* out of the game, even if the game offers the opportunity to do so, because it takes a whole heap of commitment that the casual gamer does not possess to begin with. So *balance* must be viewed from a holistic level over a range of player "ability" (read experience or number of hours free to invest in gaming). The Pro level PvP players get their balance from many hours spent engineering and research of latest meta.
The mid-level players get their balance from basic engineering and occasional forays in Open and try to keep skill of escape rather than fighting back against other players

I disagree, things can be open only, but I'm not gonna try and convince you of that now.

On your other point, the engineer grind, I don't think there is a group of players more against the grind it takes to engineer a ship than the PVP crowd.

I want the casual gamer to be able to engineer up to a viable level without the miserable grind just as much as I want the same for a PVP'er with a PVP ship.

Hopefully the engineering changes coming out next year accomplish this.

 

[Roybe]

Yeah. I wonder how the PP will be affected by this.

I've been wanting to play BGS/PP (same thing, right?), but heard that it isn't that great.

Nope...Background Simulation and Powerplay are two different and truly seperate entities...

BGS is the manipulation of missions, NPC, and other player inputs to change the settings within a single system.

PowerPlay is a larger scale interaction between players and the game, that utilizes its own set of 'game trophies' to manipulate the super powers of the game....

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Nope...Background Simulation and Powerplay are two different and truly seperate entities...

BGS is the manipulation of missions, NPC, and other player inputs to change the settings within a single system.

PowerPlay is a larger scale interaction between players and the game, that utilizes its own set of 'game trophies' to manipulate the super powers of the game....

Thats how it works now. but up until yesterday, there was some stuff that was changed as well. The balance has begun. Dont this stuff wont be touched either. Players arent NPC's. And they want people using those outlets.

This whole game is built on conflict.

Its going to change its Inevitable dude. But yes thats how it is now. And the majority of the player base couldnt care less about those features because of it. We still use them. And a lot of use know how they work. But a lot of people dont use them. They want people using them. I wouldnt be surprised if they add objectives in the mix so people do. Once all these new crime and punishments/rewards systems are in place.

Thats another thing, a lot of people are all happy "YAY THE GRIEFERS ARE GETTING PUNISHED!!!" There will be rewards too. But this needs to happen first.

Its just experience in watching games grow over time, and being involved specifically with WoW as it grow over time. I was a tester for them for a bit. And not the Yay! I got into beta kind.

Cool things are around the corner man. Lets sit back and enjoy the ride.

 

[Roybe]

I disagree, things can be open only, but I'm not gonna try and convince you of that now.

On your other point, the engineer grind, I don't think there is a group of players more against the grind it takes to engineer a ship than the PVP crowd.

I want the casual gamer to be able to engineer up to a viable level without the miserable grind just as much as I want the same for a PVP'er with a PVP ship.

Hopefully the engineering changes coming out next year accomplish this.

Again, basic design decision discussion....there are ways to make things Open only, but as a sweeping change to the game....won't happen.



....I agree with grind as being problematic....time constraints are tough in this game....and one of the things I see in the discussed changes is the increased level of time sinks in the game for criminals....

 

[Roybe]

Thats how it works now. but up until yesterday, there was some stuff that was changed as well. The balance has begun. Dont this stuff wont be touched either. Players arent NPC's. And they want people using those outlets.

This whole game is built on conflict.

Its going to change its Inevitable dude. But yes thats how it is now. And the majority of the player base couldnt care less about those features because of it. We still use them. And a lot of use know how they work. But a lot of people dont use them. They want people using them. I wouldnt be surprised if they add objectives in the mix so people do. Once all these new crime and punishments/rewards systems are in place.

Thats another thing, a lot of people are all happy "YAY THE GRIEFERS ARE GETTING PUNISHED!!!" There will be rewards too. But this needs to happen first.

Its just experience in watching games grow over time, and being involved specifically with WoW as it grow over time. I was a tester for them for a bit. And not the Yay! I got into beta kind.

Cool things are around the corner man. Lets sit back and enjoy the ride.

Did they make players merits=NPC merits?

LOL...it's refreshing to see optimism and hope....keep it up...as long as you feel good about it!

Tested for GW2...and this game....actually have done things with devs in this game...there will be great changes coming...I have no doubt...but the modes ain't gonna be one of them...neither will be the way PVP is looked at and dealt with.