[Suggestion] Open only 'district'

[Lateralus]

So in the last minor update the 'Pilots Federation District' star cluster was added to help new players settle into the game without the threat of being swatted by max-engineered PvPers (not a bad idea IMO). One of the main features of this district is that PvP is strictly verboten here, even in open play (killing noobs will get you kicked from the area after a few violations) - this shows that Frontier have a willingness to implement areas of the galaxy with different rulesets when required.

With this being the case, there should be a similar (newly populated) star cluster in the bubble where you could only access the systems when playing in open.. This would be an area for more advanced players who accept the risk of PvP and could provide lots of emergent content and risk vs reward gameplay. Think of it like the dark zone from The Division - content for end-game players.

The rules and features

• The size of the district would be around a similar size as the Pilots Federation district initially or perhaps marginally larger, could be expanded later if successful or if too congested.
• To enter the district, you would need to be in open play. Logging in to solo/PG while located in one of these system would kick you out of the district.
• Blocking would only affect comms here, not instances
• While in this district, the danger log-out timer would be significantly increased (I'd suggest no less than 60 seconds).
• Community Goals Initiatives could be placed in the district periodically
• All systems in this cluster would have a positive commodity price modifier applied to them, making sale prices very high (encouraging risk vs reward gameplay). This would stack with states such as Boom, Investment & Pirate Attack... making this the most lucrative area of the galaxy to trade.
• There would be a number of 'pristine' planetary rings in the district, as well as high-grade geological prospecting sites to encourage players in.
• If Fdev are not going to go open-only with Powerplay (I still hope they do), Powers could be given control of 2-3 systems each in this district, providing a scaled-down Powerplay map for open only (this would test the idea fairly well vs the current multi-mode implementation). CC of these systems would be higher than normal to incentivise uptake.

The benefits of this idea

• The impact on Solo/PG players would be negligible (access to some currently unpopulated systems restricted, that is all)
• Would give advanced/PvP players an area to go where they are pretty much guaranteed PvP content (it can be hard to find in a game world so vast with Solo & PG on top of that)
• We would finally be able to see how different the game would play in this area compared with the current mode setup (would there be a proper trader/pirate/killer/bounty hunter food-chain? would territory wars actually involve hot-war PvP?)
• PvP-orientated players would gather in this cluster, easing the PvP risk in other areas of the galaxy for players who may want to avoid it
• Prominent PvP groups could be asked by Fdev about having their minor factions moved to/placed in this district (they might like this idea to get around the problem of private group attackers)
• Blocking wouldn't cause instance spaghetti or provide a free pass to player opposition in this district
• Menu logging would be less advantageous here, would probably result in a rebuy

To sum up, the game desperately needs something like this to keep the PvP community engaged, as so many have gone on hiatus or quit altogether recently. This is a good solution because it's not removing anything but empty star-systems away from the PvE community (plus Fdev have already done this with the noob district, so it can be done and protests were minimal).

Cheers

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

So in the last minor update the 'Pilots Federation District' star cluster was added to help new players settle into the game without the threat of being swatted by max-engineered PvPers (not a bad idea IMO). One of the main features of this district is that PvP is strictly verboten here, even in open play (killing noobs will get you kicked from the area after a few violations) - this shows that Frontier have a willingness to implement areas of the galaxy with different rulesets when required.

I don't think you understand what the starter district is for and in my opinion throws the rest of your idea into question. It's meant to take the edge off for new players starting out, not just protect them from player attacks.

Take this for starters: PvP isn't "strictly verboten." From what I understand you can get up to five kills before being removed. Know what that sounds like to me? Being promoted out, just like you would with one of the ranks, with an introduction to the idea that criminal acts have consequences.

Elite is meant to be a open world sandbox that simulates a living, breathing galaxy. Setting up a ghetto for PvP players isn't what we need.

 

[Lateralus]

I don't think you understand what the starter district is for and in my opinion throws the rest of your idea into question. It's meant to take the edge off for new players starting out, not just protect them from player attacks.

Take this for starters: PvP isn't "strictly verboten." From what I understand you can get up to five kills before being removed. Know what that sounds like to me? Being promoted out, just like you would with one of the ranks, with an introduction to the idea that criminal acts have consequences.

Elite is meant to be a open world sandbox that simulates a living, breathing galaxy. Setting up a ghetto for PvP players isn't what we need.

Well something has to change, the open play situation is currently stagnant.

Also those ghettos are currently Shinrarta Dezhra and Deciat, so what would we lose?

 

[CharlestonGeek]

Move CQC into Open Play in the form of a mega ship, that jumps from system to system looking for contestants to dock.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Well something has to change, the open play situation is currently stagnant.

Also those ghettos are currently Shinrarta Dezhra and Deciat, so what would we lose?

You should go talk with PvPers about what they want. There's some good discussion in the sub forum right now regarding a full balance pass on shields, armor, and all the rest. That would go a lot further fixing it for everyone.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

[*]The size of the district would be around a similar size as the Pilots Federation district initially or perhaps marginally larger, could be expanded later if successful or if too congested.
[*]If Fdev are not going to go open-only with Powerplay (I still hope they do), Powers could be given control of 2-3 systems each in this district, providing a scaled-down Powerplay map for open only (this would test the idea fairly well vs the current multi-mode implementation). CC of these systems would be higher than normal to incentivise uptake.

The PF district is about ten systems, so you'd never be able to fit anything resembling the current Powerplay implementation into something that small. The distance curve with PP means that even with higher than normal CC the position of this district wouldn't be much use to most Powers [1]. To give 2-3 control systems each, even with bonus CC, you'd probably need a few hundred systems in the region.

It'd need a lot of extra rules piled onto it to make it work. BGS fights are more workable for something this scale, and don't have the other issues Powerplay has.

[1] As noted in the BGS comment, you'd have to position the district some way off the edge of the bubble. If you didn't, powers would just snap up control systems near it and grab 15 LY into the district that way.

[*]All systems in this cluster would have a positive commodity price modifier applied to them, making sale prices very high (encouraging risk vs reward gameplay). This would stack with states such as Boom, Investment & Pirate Attack... making this the most lucrative area of the galaxy to trade.

A cluster of ~10 systems is unlikely to have much in the way of Pirate Attack states, and depending on how much PvPing goes on, might have trouble sustaining Investment and Civil Liberty too. You'd need a really big baseline modifier (~5x or more) on sale prices to guarantee better mining prices inside rather than outside.

[*]We would finally be able to see how different the game would play in this area compared with the current mode setup (would there be a proper trader/pirate/killer/bounty hunter food-chain? would territory wars actually involve hot-war PvP?)

Pretty sure it'd be a "no" on the food-chain question. The game balance isn't set up for it.

I mean, really, no-one would be playing the food chain honestly anyway, because they're unlikely to all show up to the district in their Freewinders and work their way up, so it doesn't matter that much if you still can't make any actual money from piracy or bounty hunting ... or trading, for that matter.

[*]Prominent PvP groups could be asked by Fdev about having their minor factions moved to/placed in this district (they might like this idea to get around the problem of private group attackers)

It'd probably be easier for Frontier just to add a bunch of minor factions of various allegiances and government types and let PvP groups adopt whichever ones they felt like supporting.

This would probably also require placing the district at least 60 LY 'offshore' of the edge of the bubble, so it didn't get inbound and outbound expansions confusing matters.

 

[Lateralus]

You should go talk with PvPers about what they want. There's some good discussion in the sub forum right now regarding a full balance pass on shields, armor, and all the rest. That would go a lot further fixing it for everyone.

PvP is at its best when its for a purpose, i.e traders and miners come to sell, pirates come to rob them, escort & bounty hunters come to kill the pirates, killers come to kill everyone. The opportunities for this happening are limited in the game due to the distribution of players and mode options.

Balance passes are welcome but would not provide or encourage scenarios for organic PvP to occur in the first place. This is the same resaon that Ryan_M17 of SDC posted that crime hub idea a couple of years back. There should be an area where PvP is encouraged, not just a background niche activity.

Edit: Also CQC is not a solution (it could be a lot better but Fdev won't invest time on it).

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

PvP is at its best when its for a purpose, i.e traders and miners come to sell, pirates come to rob them, escort & bounty hunters come to kill the pirates, killers come to kill everyone. The opportunities for this happening are limited in the game due to the distribution of players and mode options.

Give folks something to fight for, an idea or symbol or person, and then mechanics to express that struggle and you'll see them sort it out pretty quick. All of those things you mentioned should be means to an end.

Regarding balance passes they would encourage organic fights because the nuts and bolts of that should be more fun than what we have now (shield stacked ridiculousness banging into each other like whales until one high wakes out).

I'd also like to point out that the crime hub idea would be baked into the game world. No special "districts" required.

 

[varonica]

Just as long as we can have the area outside the PvP area set to PvE only.

 

[Screemonster]

If you make an open-only PvP zone, just you wait for the screaming when someone outside this zone gets attacked when they fly in open without shields.

 

[Iskariot]

So in the last minor update the 'Pilots Federation District' star cluster was added to help new players settle into the game without the threat of being swatted by max-engineered PvPers (not a bad idea IMO). One of the main features of this district is that PvP is strictly verboten here, even in open play (killing noobs will get you kicked from the area after a few violations) - this shows that Frontier have a willingness to implement areas of the galaxy with different rulesets when required.

With this being the case, there should be a similar (newly populated) star cluster in the bubble where you could only access the systems when playing in open.. This would be an area for more advanced players who accept the risk of PvP and could provide lots of emergent content and risk vs reward gameplay. Think of it like the dark zone from The Division - content for end-game players.

The rules and features

• The size of the district would be around a similar size as the Pilots Federation district initially or perhaps marginally larger, could be expanded later if successful or if too congested.
• To enter the district, you would need to be in open play. Logging in to solo/PG while located in one of these system would kick you out of the district.
• Blocking would only affect comms here, not instances
• While in this district, the danger log-out timer would be significantly increased (I'd suggest no less than 60 seconds).
• Community Goals Initiatives could be placed in the district periodically
• All systems in this cluster would have a positive commodity price modifier applied to them, making sale prices very high (encouraging risk vs reward gameplay). This would stack with states such as Boom, Investment & Pirate Attack... making this the most lucrative area of the galaxy to trade.
• There would be a number of 'pristine' planetary rings in the district, as well as high-grade geological prospecting sites to encourage players in.
• If Fdev are not going to go open-only with Powerplay (I still hope they do), Powers could be given control of 2-3 systems each in this district, providing a scaled-down Powerplay map for open only (this would test the idea fairly well vs the current multi-mode implementation). CC of these systems would be higher than normal to incentivise uptake.

The benefits of this idea

• The impact on Solo/PG players would be negligible (access to some currently unpopulated systems restricted, that is all)
• Would give advanced/PvP players an area to go where they are pretty much guaranteed PvP content (it can be hard to find in a game world so vast with Solo & PG on top of that)
• We would finally be able to see how different the game would play in this area compared with the current mode setup (would there be a proper trader/pirate/killer/bounty hunter food-chain? would territory wars actually involve hot-war PvP?)
• PvP-orientated players would gather in this cluster, easing the PvP risk in other areas of the galaxy for players who may want to avoid it
• Prominent PvP groups could be asked by Fdev about having their minor factions moved to/placed in this district (they might like this idea to get around the problem of private group attackers)
• Blocking wouldn't cause instance spaghetti or provide a free pass to player opposition in this district
• Menu logging would be less advantageous here, would probably result in a rebuy

To sum up, the game desperately needs something like this to keep the PvP community engaged, as so many have gone on hiatus or quit altogether recently. This is a good solution because it's not removing anything but empty star-systems away from the PvE community (plus Fdev have already done this with the noob district, so it can be done and protests were minimal).

Cheers

I am against this.
I do not want more areas in the galaxy locked off for gamey reasons. Certainly not areas of the size you propose.

I would prefer Open to be a completely seperate game, and solo to get an off-line and modding option, with a completely different line of development in general. I think Open is already hampering gamedevelopment in many obvious ways as it is..

 

[Para Handy]

Oh goody another "give me more real players to be my content" thread.

/s

NO

 

[Lateralus]

lol shock horror, PvE folks are against the idea.. who would have guessed.

Sure we can keep all the ganks at high-profile systems if that's what you prefer...

Oh goody another "give me more real players to be my content" thread.

/s

NO

No actual arguments then, just salt.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

[*]We would finally be able to see how different the game would play in this area compared with the current mode setup (would there be a proper trader/pirate/killer/bounty hunter food-chain? would territory wars actually involve hot-war PvP?)

It occurs to me ... why not just try it? You don't need Frontier's support for that.

1) Pick a system out on the fringes of the bubble that gets no meaningful player traffic - there are plenty out there that maybe get a player a week passing through at the moment, if that - which still has a few stations in and maybe a couple of ring systems for core mining. It won't be anything fancy, but you can probably at least get a couple of outposts and a surface base for larger ships.
2) Get a bunch of similarly-inclined players together, split into two or more teams, and pick a minor faction in that system each to support so you've got a reason to be trading, bounty hunting, mining, etc. in that system.
3) Agree that all of you will only visit that system in Open (and the same for any trips outside it to get trade goods or complete missions).
4) Try it out for a month or so and let us know how it works out.

 

[Lateralus]

It occurs to me ... why not just try it? You don't need Frontier's support for that.

1) Pick a system out on the fringes of the bubble that gets no meaningful player traffic - there are plenty out there that maybe get a player a week passing through at the moment, if that - which still has a few stations in and maybe a couple of ring systems for core mining. It won't be anything fancy, but you can probably at least get a couple of outposts and a surface base for larger ships.
2) Get a bunch of similarly-inclined players together, split into two or more teams, and pick a minor faction in that system each to support so you've got a reason to be trading, bounty hunting, mining, etc. in that system.
3) Agree that all of you will only visit that system in Open (and the same for any trips outside it to get trade goods or complete missions).
4) Try it out for a month or so and let us know how it works out.

It can't be done, its been tried multiple times... Remember the EDRPG private group? That had a lot interest and failed to gain any long-term traction (on two fairly large-scale attempts). The problem is when you make something optional, it can just be ignored and then it fails (like the Thargoid narrative for example). To be true open-world competitive multiplayer, It has to be a Dark Zone-style risk vs reward system that cannot be circumvented by modes to work..

Forming a little group of enthusiasts would be a waste of time and effort.

 

[Lateralus]

Just as long as we can have the area outside the PvP area set to PvE only.

Well my suggestion doesn't impact the gameplay of anyone who isn't interested.. yours however would kill the game. So no.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

It can't be done, its been tried multiple times... Remember the EDRPG private group? That had a lot interest and failed to gain any long-term traction (on two fairly large-scale attempts). The problem is when you make something optional, it can just be ignored and then it fails (like the Thargoid narrative for example). To be true open-world competitive multiplayer, It has to be a Dark Zone-style risk vs reward system that cannot be circumvented by modes to work..

Forming a little group of enthusiasts would be a waste of time and effort.

Then it's also a waste of Frontier's time and effort to consider implementing a permit-restricted area for Open-only play.

You can get more money than you ever need from core mining already (or other methods), and lots of people have, so risk/reward is a pretty meaningless concept: with high rewards available for zero risk, no-one's going to bother taking non-zero risk even for slightly higher reward: they'll take the risk because having some interesting gameplay is the reward.

As a parallel to this, pre-3.3 Painite laser mining was by far the most effective earner if done optimally and had been for years (still is, of course), but doing it optimally required actual effort so most players stuck to things like "fly in a straight line in supercruise for 40 minutes" and "complain when that gets nerfed" which still paid acceptably, rather than things needing actual skill, planning, coordination, etc.

So regardless of payouts, the only people who'd show up to this sort of thing are the people who like the Open-only concept in the first place. If you don't think there's enough of those to make it work voluntarily - in one system, where you need a pretty small number of players for round-the-clock coverage and action - then it's not going to get enough interest with a cluster permit lock and a bunch of extra rules on it either.

 

[Para Handy]

lol shock horror, PvE folks are against the idea.. who would have guessed.

Sure we can keep all the ganks at high-profile systems if that's what you prefer...
.......

It can't be done, its been tried multiple times... Remember the EDRPG private group? That had a lot interest and failed to gain any long-term traction (on two fairly large-scale attempts). The problem is when you make something optional, it can just be ignored and then it fails ......

You really answered yourself there - the "make something optional" would seem to be anathema to the desire to be able to indulge in non-consensual PvP just because someone is in the area, or in other words, if you come here you are consenting to PvP.

Really, if the desire to have good PvP interactions is so widespread and popular then why have the initiatives such as PvP PGs not worked? PvE (or pWp) is so desirable to the playerbase that the PvE user-group of Mobius had to be split because so many want to enjoy the game without having to bother defending against PvP-build combat ships.

There is absolutely no reason why PvP-oriented players can't decide on one or some anarchy systems to enjoy their head-to heads without having to have something imposed upon the game itself. The idea of making an area into a Open-only honey-trap is just a "come and be my content" request - I hope F D never accede.

 

[Screemonster]

There is absolutely no reason why PvP-oriented players can't decide on one or some anarchy systems to enjoy their head-to heads without having to have something imposed upon the game itself. The idea of making an area into a Open-only honey-trap is just a "come and be my content" request - I hope F D never accede.

They did, then someone submitted a non-anarchy PMF for the wrong superpower in their system and for some reason fdev granted it.

 

[Para Handy]

They did, then someone submitted a non-anarchy PMF for the wrong superpower in their system and for some reason fdev granted it.

I don't see a problem with a PMF doing whatever they want (though the implications of your remark are wasted on me) so a group of PvP players operating a PMF somewhere is perfectly fine. It is this idea of creating a "honeytrap" area of systems to encourage (read lure) people to play in there, forcing it to be in Open Play that I object to on the grounds that it is obviously a lure to bring-in some "content".

I like Open Play - I would love to be able to play in Open all the time but as people will agree, the imbalance that engineers has enabled is just too great for people to survive without themselves having to engineer their ships with that threat in mind. Obviously I am only talking about at the busy places, elsewhere I often choose Open and actually would enjoy it more if the player comms were more user-friendly.