Players are the only CMDRs. That hollow rectangle should tell you enough.
News Support update - Reiteration of player harassment rules
- Thread starter Zac Antonaci
- Start date
The major source of conflict in the community is between those who want the game played in Open and those who wish to play in solo/pg, between those who want to play the game in a dynanmic, emergent, and spontaneous manner and those who wish to be anti social and play segregated. Its always been the case but ultimately the responsibility here sits with FD. It is their system by design and its problematic.
With that said historically I think you'll find that much of the hate, anger and spite has come from the PvE collective. I have simply lost count of the number of threads crying griefer and using pejorative terms to label one style of play. That by the way is apparently acceptable on this board. So there is a deep sense of injustice felt because I think its fair to say the narrative allowed here is biased to a certain extent.
Over time I think people got sick to death of being maligned and negatively characterised and have started to argue back. Its somewhat amusing to me that after being called all the names under the sun players who like a bit of PvP get instantly hammered if they counter 'griefer' with 'carebear'. Believe me there are a lot worse terms that could be used.
I'd be more than happy to not use pejorative terms myself and I'll do that the moment I stop hearing people wail about 'griefers'. Needless to say I won't hold my breath.
As for the community I think in general despite the conflict its not a bad one. Particuarly demonstrated in the way almost everyone jumps to help out new players and offer advice. So its not the picture you paint and my advice in general would be for people to chill out a little, and lighten up over these percieved offenses. At the end of the day its just a bit of fun. So what if a few people have their ships blown up. Its not the end of the world in a galaxy set against a backdrop of raw anarchy and power plays, is it?
I think you misunderstood the term "antisocial behaviour" here. A player who plays without any interaction with other players, who plays against environment only, maybe even only in Solo, can not, by definition, be antisocial. They may be asocial, which is a very different thing and means they do not wish any social interaction and prefer solitary gameplay. They may also simply prefer solitary gameplay and their preference may have nothing to do with disliking society or social interaction.
Antisocial is a person who's activities focus on harassing others and breaking the norms of society, or in this case, a gaming community. Again, by definition, being antisocial requires other members of society to be addressees of such a behaviour, either directly, or indirectly. So again, by definition one has to PVP to be antisocial.
As for the term "griefer" it is not a friendly description, but it is used, or should be used, to describe rather unfriendly players who display antisocial behaviour in multiplayer games and in this case this is not a derogatory term. This term should not be used to describe players who simply enjoy PVP gameplay as it's perfectly possible to play PVP game and not be a "griefer". If used in such case, this term becomes derogatory.
A term "carebear" is used much more indiscriminately and typically applied to all players who have preference for PVE gameplay, by players who have preference for PVP gameplay. That's why it is derogatory. Hope you can notice the difference here.
This is not to say that PVP gameplay is antisocial per se as there is nothing wrong about PVP and it's permitted by the rules of the game. I am also entirely sure that no player playing in Open, who is in their right mind, will be opposed to PVP gameplay for as long as it is within reason. Every player can be attacked in Open and I'm sure many players play in Open precisely because of that, because they enjoy PVP element of the gameplay. Problems appear when some other player harasses them repeatedly for no ingame reason, or is a coward (unprovoked Conda on a Sidey attack is cowardice for example) or is cheating (unprovoked Conda on a Sidey attack is cheating, for example and so is combat logging).
"Dynamic, emergent and spontaneous manner" versus "antisocial, segregated"... I have a hunch you may be pushing some agenda here, you know? It's fine that you have your personal preference for one or another gameplay style and it's rather clear here, but the suggestion of Solo / PG being somehow less "dynamic, emergent and spontaneous" is not exactly the heights of diplomacy. And that is what causes conflicts in Elite community, not the presence of various modes of gameplay.
There is absolutely no conflict caused by the fact that people can play in Solo and in Open. These are two game modes that are absolutely valid and part of the gameplay. They cater to different play styles and that's it.
Your advice for people to chill out a bit is a good one, I wholeheartedly approve of it.
I would add one bit of advice to people who enjoy PVP: have some dignity and keep PVP meaningful, look for some challenging targets and make sure you don't harass people repeatedly (as in: don't blow up the same ships over and over again unless their pilots are clear they are interested in PVP). And don't interfere with gentlemen' agreements of private groups. And everybody will be happy. Here, conflicts within the communities sorted.
No, because you forgot the part where the judge falls on the floor on her back laughing and kicking her heels with amusement at the idea that a bunch of gamers are such a wad of children that they couldn't sort things out in the adult world and had to bring an in-game behavioral problem into her court of law. After a good long giggle session she bangs her gavel and throws the case out.
Let me give you a hint about something: if you're on a gaming forum, talking about court cases, you're making stupid noises.
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That's not the intention and you know that really.
NPC's may just be placeholders but in the game they all see the same welcome screen, they all choose a cmdr name - the hollow rectangles aren't there to make harassing real players easier but so you know when to say hi not just shoot.
That could be a good idea and I'm sure a fairly easy change for ED to make, all AI ships to have a prefix of Cmdr in front of their names, a change to sensor information, make all sensor icons on the scanner the same either all hollow or solid, making any interdiction by a "real Cmdr" a lottery, once pulled out of supercruse it would only be then that the interaction within chat that would say this is a real cmdr and not an AI.
Yup, it's so easy it bears repeating. Then everyone is just part of the environment.
What? How is that not the intention? The sole intention of those hollow rectangles is for you to know they are players.
Yes but not in order for some people to hunt them down like dogs. (that was the previous post sorry if unclear)
You don't really need to know who is a player and who are AI really do you if you are going about your own business, if you want to make a friend in a system you can use the local call for chat or even call for help, I'm sure Pirates can still find methods to lure unsuspecting victims into a trap by using local call, atm it's exploited to target just players, it would mix it up a bit for everyone because a Pirate wouldn't know who he is interdicting making it a 50/50 chance of a PvP or PvE encounter.
You will know who is in your Wing via the icon colour so as it is now.
I'm a PvE player Bounty hunting also making the chances of me pulling out a "real" Cmdr far higher than just hunting easy AI targets to
In group play it could be left as is but as a group you know who is a member and friend by the icon locator on your galaxy map.
What more information does anyone want other than to target and fight Cmdr's?
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That's not an exploit that's the game. I was sold a game where I could murder other people because I felt like it and that's what I do. That's not exploiting and it's just as valid as anyone else who trades for a living.
Think we should just leave that hanging there and let people mull over what that sort of thinking will be like when we've got planet flight and walking around and cities and passenger missions etc. Up to FDev how they advertise I guess but did it mean to come over like that to people?
Wow nice 4 week necro! Why on Earth????
Let me give you a hint about something: if you're quoting posts (especially ones from 4 weeks ago) try to wrap your brain round the context of the original discussion, otherwise you're just making stupid noises.
The context being that for pages people were arguing that Frontier cannot ban anyone because they can't prove intention to grief. The argument being if Frontier banned a player then that player could take Frontier to court and Frontier can't prove intention.
Which is completely rubbish since Frontier do not have to prove anything, and even if it did go to some ridiculous court case then the judge would just look at it and make a decision based on the evidence. Which is what you quoted.
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Thouse rules never are clear enouth :
We wanted to reiterate some examples regarding the rules of Player harassment. If a player has been blocked from a private group, or a group/individual has taken every step possible to remove a player from their gameplay, then attempting to circumvent this in any fashion is a serious offense and action will be taken accordingly. Attempting to re-establish contact with an individual who has blocked a player through secondary accounts or other methods of attempting to evade the block are against the rules. Action can and will be taken against both the accounts in question and the main accounts of players that we deem to be harassing players through this method.
-> I agree if the reason is because one player should never try to fake his identity using another account for any reason ?
In addition taking action such as seeking out and targeting specific players purely for the purpose of being disruptive, to cause offence, or to upset players within the community can also be considered harassment. A perfect example of this is deliberately attempting to disrupt public livestreams such as the charity ones mentioned before. This includes, but is not limited to, the capturing of footage and releasing it publically in an attempt to create upset or gain notoriety through the actions listed above.
-> What do you mean about : "beeing disruptive" ? If an player kills multiple times another that is living and for example mining in the same system, its like disruptive ?
We have previously stated, and it remains true, that Frontier are not able to manage group specific rules. Players considered to be breaking these group rule sets as established by group moderators should be removed from those groups by said moderators. In addition, running a livestream in Open does invite the potential for players to approach and impact your gameplay and running a livestream in which you are declaring war on another group and they come and take action against you is reasonable and should be expected.
-> Is not this statement in conflict with the previous statement ? I had the impression with this statement that in open play there is no rules of harassment ?
We wanted to reiterate some examples regarding the rules of Player harassment. If a player has been blocked from a private group, or a group/individual has taken every step possible to remove a player from their gameplay, then attempting to circumvent this in any fashion is a serious offense and action will be taken accordingly. Attempting to re-establish contact with an individual who has blocked a player through secondary accounts or other methods of attempting to evade the block are against the rules. Action can and will be taken against both the accounts in question and the main accounts of players that we deem to be harassing players through this method.
-> I agree if the reason is because one player should never try to fake his identity using another account for any reason ?
In addition taking action such as seeking out and targeting specific players purely for the purpose of being disruptive, to cause offence, or to upset players within the community can also be considered harassment. A perfect example of this is deliberately attempting to disrupt public livestreams such as the charity ones mentioned before. This includes, but is not limited to, the capturing of footage and releasing it publically in an attempt to create upset or gain notoriety through the actions listed above.
-> What do you mean about : "beeing disruptive" ? If an player kills multiple times another that is living and for example mining in the same system, its like disruptive ?
We have previously stated, and it remains true, that Frontier are not able to manage group specific rules. Players considered to be breaking these group rule sets as established by group moderators should be removed from those groups by said moderators. In addition, running a livestream in Open does invite the potential for players to approach and impact your gameplay and running a livestream in which you are declaring war on another group and they come and take action against you is reasonable and should be expected.
-> Is not this statement in conflict with the previous statement ? I had the impression with this statement that in open play there is no rules of harassment ?
That says it all.
Jobs like Trading, Mining, Exploration you do not intentionally go out hunting players down to kill, players who just want to PvP hunt down just players why should it be made easy to jump into a system and have player targets shown to you with hollow icons on the scanners? So yes it is exploiting that fact, changing everyone players and AI to look the same will make you have to work for your "enjoyment". It also works the other way if you pull me out I wouldn't know if you are a player or an AI, I just submit to AI's and blow them up, easy to do, it would bring more uncertainty to who I submit to which would make it very interesting and Dangerous
I'm also very sure once you have pulled a player out and killed them you will be scribbling their name down so you can find them again and again
bringing in the harassment of a player part to the opening post
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Bad joke
right. we have private groups where they can do the Liga and clan wars.
fd stop be stupid like the clan players. many already left this Game becouse of boriness. u will loose more by such stupid and need less rules. If I jump into a wake with 8 players and see them fight each other I would join the fight instead of fly away.
open play is open play. thats it. No more need to say.
right. we have private groups where they can do the Liga and clan wars.
fd stop be stupid like the clan players. many already left this Game becouse of boriness. u will loose more by such stupid and need less rules. If I jump into a wake with 8 players and see them fight each other I would join the fight instead of fly away.
open play is open play. thats it. No more need to say.
Is that the best you could do? Really?
Here's the thing: I have a life and don't live with my eyeballs glued to the forum. I periodically nip in and see what stupidity is on offer at the moment. The particularly scrumptious dangling bits of stupidity caught my eye, so I made a comment. What's your excuse?
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Well look. Half the arguments on this forum are caused by people pulling out a single comment, not understanding the context (intentionally or not) then trying to imply someone was saying something they weren't. I mean it's really really easy to pull out a comment and twist it into meaning something else, unfortunately it actually takes a bit of brain power to avoid doing that. However it shouldn't require much brain power when the context has just been explained to you (see post you quoted).
Claiming you "have a life" so aren't capable of understanding context is just doubling down on the idiocy to be honest.
Also on this..
You have 3500 posts in 16 months, that's averaging like 7 posts per day every day, that's gonna be right up there. Which is totally cool of course, but throwing out comments about "having a life" and "eyeballs glued to the forums" with some sort of implied tone? Not cool man... :|
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woah! Well that was a read-a-thon.
Doesn't this all boil down to killing or being killed by a player is fun for both sides, or at least produces a raised heart beat, and a possible brown trouser moment. But doing this persistently even after steps have been taken to stop it with private groups etc., that just makes you an orifice of some kind.
Carry on....
Doesn't this all boil down to killing or being killed by a player is fun for both sides, or at least produces a raised heart beat, and a possible brown trouser moment. But doing this persistently even after steps have been taken to stop it with private groups etc., that just makes you an orifice of some kind.
Carry on....
What did they do? I'm on Mobius and never had any problems.
A few players went into Mobius and killed other players and the community blew it way out of proportion.