News Support update - Reiteration of player harassment rules

Not true sir:

'n addition taking action such as seeking out and targeting specific players purely for the purpose of being disruptive, to cause offence, or to upset players within the community can also be considered harassment. A perfect example of this is deliberately attempting to disrupt public livestreams such as the charity ones mentioned before.

I think you're presenting two different scenarios there.

NerfBuck : "If someone simply attacked you in Open and you happened to be streaming your game then it is not. In a nutshell."

Emphasis on happened. You're implying the CMDR saw a livestraem and thought.. now's my chance at fame!
 
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Kudos to FD for doing the right thing.

There seems to be some misunderstanding by at least one, maybe two "forum lawyers".

First off, a lawsuit needs to show financial loss. If you played the game for x number of hours and payed x number of monies, you've already gotten value for your money. I know I have.

Secondly, intent doesn't need to be proven to 100%. This is not a criminal or civil rights matter. If it came to a regular civil court, intent needs to be proven to a preponderance of evidence. This goes to greater than 50%. Even 51% is overkill. A lawsuit against FD in this case would be expensive and fruitless. Thinking that it could pass muster as a class action is laughable.

Once again, thanks to FD for doing the right thing. This should help make the game more enjoyable and playable for those of us who happen to like and respect other people.
 
I am 100% serious and not mocking. I will be transfixed watching you represent the first legal case brought about as a direct result of Zac's statement. I think it will be groundbreaking in terms of case law.

I searched as fully as Lord Chief Justice Google would allow and found 3 cases: 1 trying to sue NCSoft for making Lineage too addictive. 1 trying to sue Fallout 4 for causing the breakup of his marriage and one asking for advice on suing Quake Online for "his brother" being unfairly banned on the accusation of using 3rd party software.

This will be massive for the online gaming industry when you take a test case to court.

Genuinely confused here, and not even sure which side you're taking, but none of the cases you cited seem to have anything to do with the subject matter under discussion.
 
I think you're presenting two different scenarios there.

NerfBuck : "If someone simply attacked you in Open and you happened to be streaming your game then it is not. In a nutshell."

Emphasis on happened. You're implying the CMDR saw a livestraem and thought.. now's may chance at fame!


I am not saying this isn't a can of worms. I'm just saying what the man in the first post said. Harassment will not be tolerated in any mode. Harassment will be looked at within the context of each case and a decision made. Fdev has the final ruling on what harassment is (with the guidelines provided) and what the outcome to that decision will be...and it is upon the community to report any suspected cases to Support.
 
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You know, I do worry a number of players conflate surprise PvP with harassment/griefing. I mean if you see a wanted CMDR, or a CDMR of another PP faction, or even a KWS for a few out of system creds, surely nobody can argue if you open fire. But yeah is another topic and been done to death probably.


I disapprove of surprise PvP, but I will defend to the death your right to unexpected pew pew.” - Not Voltaire

or similar..
 
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Genuinely confused here, and not even sure which side you're taking, but none of the cases you cited seem to have anything to do with the subject matter under discussion.

Precisely my point. There is no existing case law I could find for a suit brought by an individual or individuals against a computer games company for denying them service. The 3 articles I found were the closest and as you point out, they weren't even close.
So, from someone who is a long time MMO gamer (Ruins of Kunark), it would genuinely interest me to see if a case could be taken to court and won.
 
That's what Braben did in the Lave Radio interview, he clearly said that he is willing to shadowban "griefers", once again, listening to the majority of crybabies to roast the minority of people that want to play the game as criminals.

You brought up "play the game as criminals", I wonder myself what I should think about your signature.
"Pirate, smuggler and Fuel Rat", that is contradicting itself, it sounds like "Mother Teresa the slayer".
How can a criminal be a Fuel Rat? Is this a "Dr Jekyll and Mister Hyde" thing?
If we encounter you, how can we tell in which mode you currently are?
 
Precisely my point. There is no existing case law I could find for a suit brought by an individual or individuals against a computer games company for denying them service. The 3 articles I found were the closest and as you point out, they weren't even close.
So, from someone who is a long time MMO gamer (Ruins of Kunark), it would genuinely interest me to see if a case could be taken to court and won.

Any case can be taken to court by someone with deep enough pockets. Won is another thing altogether. I doubt we'll see anything of the sort in our or our great grandchildren's lives.
 

Jenner

I wish I was English like my hero Tj.
Hey all, a friendly reminder to stay civil. Discussions and debates are greatly welcomed. Be insulting to any person via obscene, offensive, hateful or inflammatory comments isn't. Ty!

For those who have come into this thread recently, this bears repeating.

Thank you!
 
You clearly have no legal experience. They can not pick and choose what content is put up and remove any content that goes against what they think. That goes against both US and UK law.

They can if there's anyone in the video who doesn't consent to publication
 
Any case can be taken to court by someone with deep enough pockets. Won is another thing altogether. I doubt we'll see anything of the sort in our or our great grandchildren's lives.

Star Citizen might be one to watch.

Lotta money invested by some people in that, there's exactly the same "heated" discussions and back and forth happening over there as there is here re PvP, except over there you have real cash in the equation.

Imagine if you'd dropped a thousand dollars on a ship and it was "griefed" from under you.

Certainly some players will be looking at those high value targets.

IN game/ out of game sometimes the lines can be a bit blurry.
 
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I'm going to throw my personal opinion in here. This is solely for open. I'm in no way a pirate. However, I'm all for Commanders doing Piracy, even against other Commanders. Heck, if you interdict someone, tell them to drop some cargo, and if they don't do that and run, you'll kill them, that's perfectly fine IMO. That's the same things NPC Pirates do. However, if you kill the player that you interdicted for piracy after they drop cargo, or if you repeatedly interdict the same player and kill them, that's classified as harassment. On top of that, Stream Sniping is Harassment. Whether it's a Bounty Hunter stream sniping a pirate, a pirate stream sniping a trader, or any other form of it, it's harassment. I am a fan of PVP, so long as it's consensual. This is the reason I play in private groups and solo. Fans of pvp at anytime and anyplace have Open.

I think an Open PvE and an Open PvP mode would be amazing. Especially if the Open PvE had a Duel option. That way, if you wanted to you could still fight another player so long as they consent to it. Best way to do it would be like WoW does it. A 10 second timer that counts down followed by them fighting. However, it would only begin counting down when they're facing each other. I'd say a 90 Degree Arc in front of the ship. If someone accepts the duel request, and doesn't face the other player within a minute, or gets beyond 3(maybe more or less?)KM away, don't count down the fight and have the system cancel the duel. Whether it's a duel to the death or a duel to low hull, that's for FD to decide. Maybe have it where it's a checkbox in the system panel to change the flag on the type of duel. On top of that, with a duel, have it where System Security doesn't get involved at all and neither player gets a bounty, even for a duel to the death. This is just my 2p. Take from it what you will.

EDIT: I forgot to include Power Play and Bounty Hunting in this list. Both those things are not harassment as far as I'm concerned. Unless the powerplay thing falls under the "Repeatedly Interdict and Kill Them" page. That's harassment.
 
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My favorite part about this is that if we go into the group that they are undermining our group in in order to defend ourselves from their harrassment of our player group and private faction, we will then be banned for going into that group to try and stop the harassment but would be banned for harrassment. It's hilariously hypocritical.

It's also hilarious that the only way you can think of to deal with this sort of thing is to go directly attack the souce. You could also:

-- Undermine the other group's faction from behind a private group
-- Undermine the other group's faction in Open, if you want to truly live up to your ideals of "Open is the only way to play"
-- Support your faction using either of the two options above

Instead, you just point to undermining in Private or Solo and cry that you can't go blow them up because of it. Sounds to me like you're just looking for excuses to go blow up people who don't want to engage in hard-combat PvP, rather than being upset about your like-named faction getting undermined.
 
I'm going to make a final statement and leave it at that because I'm going out to lunch. You can not ban people for this as you can not prove intent no matter what they say or do. It is that simple. You have scenario a and b.
Scenario A) Releasing footage to create upset. How do you prove this intent? How do you 100% definitively prove that a player had intent to upset others?
Scenario B) Releasing footage to gain notoriety. How do you define the intent to gain notoriety?

EVERYTHING that was said within this post has absolutely NO legal standing within a court of law and has arbitrary and vague definitions. This isn't just in this post either. It can be seen in the EULA as shown below:
"When using such features you must use common sense and good manners, your behaviour, conduct and communications must be considerate to other users and you must not be directly or indirectly offensive, threatening, harassing or bullying to others or violate any applicable laws including but not limited to anti-discrimination legislation based on race, ethnicity, religion, gender or sexual orientation."
This is left incredibly vague so that they can ban people for whatever reason they feel because they can interpret it any way they feel and would be entirely void in a court of law. They have protected their asses by creating a roundabout way of saying they can define harassment however they like but in the end it has no definitive meaning and is entirely meaningless in a legal context. If Frontier keeps pushing the boundaries they'll find that their moral ambiguity, while beneficial against a single player, will be their own downfall in a legal manifestation.
Scenario A) Same way you prove clearly defaming videos and pictures in any other situation?
Scenario B) You do not place a video for everyone to view without wanting everyone to view it, if you make a public video, you want the public to see it..if you wanted it only to be shown to a select amount of people there are plenty of options for that...

And I don't see how the EULA/TOS is vague, at least not in my book, it seems to be something I often hear stated by people that generally go. "Common sense is not common." which I suppose is a culture and upbringing thing, kinda like, don't punch beehives if you don't want to get stung? That is an example of common sense.
However if someone is not used to there being consequences to any of their actions, then yes, common sense can be a difficult thing to see, since such people wouldn't be used to there being consequences, and as such ground for common sense to grow.
However, what you think about frontier's EULA/TOS absolutely and utterly does not matter, if you ever ended up in court, and they said, "We clearly stated it here that that such and such is not allowed" which includes harassment, and if you then begin to argue the definition of harassment, yeah, that's not going to work, at best you will lose the case, at worst you will be hit with contempt of court and similar, which makes the situation much worse for you.
And no, they haven't made anything roundabout, their EULA/TOS is perfectly clear, at least to me and a lot of people I know.
You may not want to admit it, but you seem to be struggling to avoid even looking at the fact that you might be wrong, dismissing what others say because they clearly aren't right, you are? And while I know it is taboo for some to be wrong, there is absolutely and utterly no reason for it to be that, everyone makes mistakes, everyone is wrong at some point, admit it, move on. Create a big issue from it and you are just digging yourself down deeper and deeper.
 
Star Citizen might be one to watch.

Lotta money invested by some people in that, there's exactly the same "heated" discussions and back and forth happening over there as there is here re PvP, except over there you have real cash in the equation.

Imagine if you'd dropped a thousand dollars on a ship and it was "griefed" from under you.

Certainly some players will be looking at those high value targets.

IN game/ out of game sometimes the lines can be a bit blurry.

I take it you're assuming Star Citizen will be out within our great-grandchildren's lives. (Oh, no I didn't, did I ;) )

Anyway, what FD are doing here is perfectly defensible and should help bring even more customers to the fold. I know I'm motivated to spend more on the game now. I might buy ED Steam gifts for all of my Steam friends who have it on their wishlist. There are several. Yeah, that sounds like a good way to thank FD. :)
 
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