News Support update - Reiteration of player harassment rules

[Jack Schitt]

Here’s some of Raph Koster’s thoughts a few months after the split:
http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/postmortem.shtml

Thanks so much for posting that link. A fascinating summary of everything Frontier were warned about during the design phase for Elite: Dangerous, almost all of which they chose (or were forced by immovable launch dates) to ignore.

A great number of the DDF-era warning posts could easily have been shortened to a link to that URL under the subject heading "Don't Do This." Of course Frontier probably still wouldn't have listened, but it would have saved a lot of forum bandwidth.

 

[Shar]

When you live by the sword, you die by the sword. it,s called consequence.

 

[SuBSynk]

Thank you for proving my point. You guys can white knight and hide behind Frontier's skirts with the made up "harassment" excuse but it all boils down to the strict anti-pvp views that so many of you have. You guys despise us for no other reason than that we enjoy killing others and you'll find any excuse to try and stop that from happening.

Some of us also appreciate PvP & have been here PvP'ing for a long time but are happy to see FD finally uphold the Eula and ToS more strictly.

Beta1 and earlier PvP in the game was fun, players refrained from being insulting/racist/homophobic or bullying toward other groups for their choice of game mode...The use of the word "carebear" was heavily frowned upon and players didn't exploit mechanics for "a laugh" therefore ruining the experience for all involved.

Our group have a strict no exploit rule. Anyone found to be exploiting Robigo and making millions without leaving the station is kicked, anyone combat logging is also kicked and that includes abusing the 15 second timer to leave a fight midway to wind up the enemy. Any form of offensive chat directed toward other players in game is not ok and using the in game chat to insult players is something we remove members immediately for. That is because we respect the rules set out by FD in order to keep playing their game...

Its really very simple and only a small amount of common sense is needed to not break Eula's in gaming.

PvP should be about Gl Hf and GG certainly not calling people offensive names using the in game chat or recording PvP battles and making obviously derogatory videos to annoy/ belittle other groups.

Harassment in game and the consequences for being offensive/exploiting and or breaking the Eula/ToS has never been strictly enforced and some of us applaud FD's recent attempts to clean up its gaming environment.

If i had a 7+year old child i would not feel ok letting them play ED due to the toxicity of some players and this is a real shame. Many of us are hoping FD can remove the toxic players and make the game a more fun place to be. All they have to do is enforce their own Eula/ ToS and preferably with full account banns.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Thank you for proving my point. You guys can white knight and hide behind Frontier's skirts with the made up "harassment" excuse but it all boils down to the strict anti-pvp views that so many of you have. You guys despise us for no other reason than that we enjoy killing others and you'll find any excuse to try and stop that from happening.

Yeah, I despise sociopathic behavior. Still, I have defended very narrow definition of griefing here, on these forums - because I want someone to be able to *role play* sociopath in Elite universe.

Crux is - and it is issue in all gaming community - pushing it too far, and being jerks to others ends up this way. I understand, you don't get it. You don't get where line in sand lies. Most of you don't. I can't imagine how boring or sad life must be to engage in such vitriolic behavior. But we won't analyze it, FD just needs stick with their guns, and we will forget about you.

If you can't make difference between abusive PvP and in-game, role playing PvP, then I am afraid you don't understand where issue lies neither.

 

[bitstorm]

How difficult is it?

DO NOT ENTER INTO A PRIVATE PVE GROUP WITH VERY SPECIFIC CONSENSUAL RULES ABOUT PVP AND INSTIGATE UNWARRANTED AND NON CONSENSUAL PVP ON MEMBERS OF THAT GROUP.

See. There. It's not difficult is it.

Just on this point.

For me I would much rather Frontier fix the above by improving ED's group management system rather than threats of bans that may or may not be carried out.

Sure they're not exclusive and Frontier may be working on improvements, but the way I see it people have been asking for better group management for over a year and it just hasn't happened. If it finally does happen it'll turn out SDC have caused some temporary butt hurt (where the outrage was waaay out of proportion compared to the actual damage) in exchange for some much wanted permanent improvements to the game.

If fixes happen yes you could argue that they happened despite SDC but I can;t help feeling tht in the end this is just a game, and as such the end can justify the means.

I do feel we almost need groups like SDC, players really need to push the boundaries of the game in all sorts of ways points to act as a catalyst for improvements.

Some things may not be fixable but if the preferred solution to players pushing limits is to ban then you're removing what essentially is a driving force for improvement.

David Braben himself in Lave Radio ep 100 said that players do the same thing over and over and it's frustrating because there's a bunch of undiscovered stuff out there, it seems your average player does not push the framework of the game. If no-one's pushing to breaking point then the game is just not gonna evolve.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Just on this point.

For me I would much rather Frontier fix the above by improving ED's group management system rather than threats of bans that may or may not be carried out.

Sure they're not exclusive and Frontier may be working on improvements, but the way I see it people have been asking for better group management for over a year and it just hasn't happened. If it finally does happen it'll turn out SDC have caused some temporary butt hurt (where the outrage was waaay out of proportion compared to the actual damage) in exchange for some much wanted permanent improvements to the game.

If fixes happen yes you could argue that they happened despite SDC but I can;t help feeling this is just a game, and as such the end can justify the means.

FD won't add PvE flags to private groups, if that's what you expecting.

 

[Jastebro]

Could someone please clarify what recent events made this statement necessary?

 

[CMDR pollycough]

Just on this point.
I do feel we almost need groups like SDC, players really need to push the boundaries of the game in all sorts of ways points to act as a catalyst for improvements.

There are many, many depths to this game, but as long as the same blinkered people keep looking in the same place with the same preconceived idea's then they will only find the depth they are looking for.
We are all pushing the limits of the game to find out where it lies but the majority are looking in a far wider area.

 

[LoneKharnivore]

Could someone please clarify what recent events made this statement necessary?

Okay, so: there are these two groups of players. One, SDC or Smiling Dog Crew, has existed as pirates and, um, non-consensual PvPers in Open for some time; they are substantial enough to have been put into the game as a minor faction. The other, Mobius, is a Private Group dedicated to PvE, with strict rules against PvP. So far, so fair enough, right? Two diametrically opposed groups and never the twain shall meet.

Except that then members of SDC joined Mobius and launched a surprise PvP attack.

And that's about as impartial as I could possibly be. Make your own mind up about the morals and whatnot.

 

[Kazacy]

It's possible to someone to clarify something for me? Usually when i undock i to start hunt another commanders, enemies of my faction from power play (aka anyone it's not pledged to Delaine). Now i understand some people stream their activities but i really don't use these tools (twitch, facebook etc), i don't have an facebook, twitch account and no intention to make one.
How should i know the player i intend to destroy it's streaming and even more why this player get a free card for streaming? If i stream myself i can get immunity from being killed by another commanders?
Thank you in advance.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

It's possible to someone to clarify something for me? Usually when i undock i to start hunt another commanders, enemies of my faction from power play (aka anyone it's not pledged to Delaine). Now i understand some people stream their activities but i really don't use these tools (twitch, facebook etc), i don't have an facebook, twitch account and no intention to make one.
How should i know the player i intend to destroy it's streaming and even more why this player get a free card for streaming? If i stream myself i can get immunity from being killed by another commanders?
Thank you in advance.

Read what Zac said again.

"If a player has been blocked from a private group, or a group/individual has taken every step possible to remove a player from their gameplay, then attempting to circumvent this in any fashion is a serious offense and action will be taken accordingly. Attempting to re-establish contact with an individual who has blocked a player through secondary accounts or other methods of attempting to evade the block are against the rules. Action can and will be taken against both the accounts in question and the main accounts of players that we deem to be harassing players through this method.

In addition taking action such as seeking out and targeting specific players purely for the purpose of being disruptive, to cause offence, or to upset players within the community can also be considered harassment. A perfect example of this is deliberately attempting to disrupt public livestreams such as the charity ones mentioned before. This includes, but is not limited to, the capturing of footage and releasing it publically in an attempt to create upset or gain notoriety through the actions listed above.

We have previously stated, and it remains true, that Frontier are not able to manage group specific rules. Players considered to be breaking these group rule sets as established by group moderators should be removed from those groups by said moderators. In addition, running a livestream in Open does invite the potential for players to approach and impact your gameplay and running a livestream in which you are declaring war on another group and they come and take action against you is reasonable and should be expected.

Ultimately it’s about context.

It isn't hard. If you go after PP opposition and destroy their ships, that is expected gameplay.
If you go after the same commander repeatedly, chasing them outside of the PP active systems, that is not expected.
If someone is livestreaming the conflict between PP factions and you engage them, that is expected.
If they are livestreaming a harmless charity event and you engage them, that is not expected

TLDR: Observe Wheaton's Law

 

[Tarkus Black]

It's possible to someone to clarify something for me? Usually when i undock i to start hunt another commanders, enemies of my faction from power play (aka anyone it's not pledged to Delaine). Now i understand some people stream their activities but i really don't use these tools (twitch, facebook etc), i don't have an facebook, twitch account and no intention to make one.
How should i know the player i intend to destroy it's streaming and even more why this player get a free card for streaming? If i stream myself i can get immunity from being killed by another commanders?
Thank you in advance.

Seems like you missed (or choose to deliberately ignore) this part of the OP:

In addition, running a livestream in Open does invite the potential for players to approach and impact your gameplay and running a livestream in which you are declaring war on another group and they come and take action against you is reasonable and should be expected

 

[LoneKharnivore]

Never mind...

 

[Kazacy]

It isn't hard. If you go after PP opposition and destroy their ships, that is expected gameplay.
If you go after the same commander repeatedly, chasing them outside of the PP active systems, that is not expected.
If someone is livestreaming the conflict between PP factions and you engage them, that is expected.
If they are livestreaming a harmless charity event and you engage them, that is not expected

TLDR: Observe Wheaton's Law

It is hard because as i said before for me any commander not pledged to Delaine in any system it's a valid target for me.
Live streaming a harmless charity event? How should i know this if i don't watch twitch and who knows how many services like that are on internet?
Ultimately Wheaton's Law; i don't remember to sign this law so i don't care. It's a game about flying a ship in a dangerous universe, personally i prefer to be a predator in this game not a prey.

 

[Boomer Kay]

It's possible to someone to clarify something for me? Usually when i undock i to start hunt another commanders, enemies of my faction from power play (aka anyone it's not pledged to Delaine). Now i understand some people stream their activities but i really don't use these tools (twitch, facebook etc), i don't have an facebook, twitch account and no intention to make one.
How should i know the player i intend to destroy it's streaming and even more why this player get a free card for streaming? If i stream myself i can get immunity from being killed by another commanders?
Thank you in advance.

Not posting a video of you doing so and calling it "stream sniping" is a first step.
Ghosting is as shunned in real PvP as wallhacks. It is largely considered cheating. In real PvP centered games people rarely boast their cheating and expect to get away with it.
Streamers should neither have immunity in open nor should the fact that they stream make them a target, just because they get the attention someone else is craving. If you want attention for your mad PvP skills, do good PvP. It's way more entertaining to watch than a 5 hr exploration trip.

i prefer to be a predator in this game not a prey.

Both of them require other people to interact with.
If you are not able to relate to your fellow players, thinking about you and your entitlement to whatever, you end up all by yourself.
Simple truth .. if you don't care about them, they don't care about you or you being removed from the playground. You were never playing their game anyway.
Better sign that Wheatons law bill fast.

 

[LoneKharnivore]

i don't remember to sign this law so i don't care.

That's exactly how laws work, yeah.

 

[Kazacy]

Not posting a video of you doing so and calling it "stream sniping" is a first step.
Ghosting is as shunned in real PvP as wallhacks. It is largely considered cheating. In real PvP centered games people rarely boast their cheating and expect to get away with it.
Streamers should neither have immunity in open nor should the fact that they stream make them a target, just because they get the attention someone else is craving. If you want attention for your mad PvP skills, do good PvP. It's way more entertaining to watch than a 5 hr exploration trip.

Both of them require other people to interact with.
If you are not able to relate to your fellow players, thinking about you and your entitlement to whatever, you end up all by yourself.
Simple truth .. if you don't care about them, they don't care about you or you being removed from the playground. You were never playing their game anyway.
Better sign that Wheatons law bill fast.

I don't have mad pvp skills, barely passable skills. Also it's not entitlement, if i understand right killing another player it's clearly not against the EULA. Even more i prefer to pledge to Delaine to give a fair warning to another players, if they ignore the warning it's only their fault.
And no i don't want to sign Wheaton's law, i prefer it my way

 

[CaptainKremmen]

Q: How do you know when an Orca full of PKers has landed?

A: Because the whining continues long after the engines have shut down.

 

[Boomer Kay]

And no i don't want to sign Wheaton's law, i prefer it my way

Well, no one stops you from creating a private group to play your way with all of your friends.
No PvEer will get away with joining it to combat log now that such things are clarified.

 

[Kazacy]

Well, no one stops you from creating a private group to play your way with all of your friends.
No PvEer will get away with joining it to combat log now that such things are clarified.

Let's not turn this into a open vs...... but i understand this private group it's called open, it's open and for me is like wild wild west. I love it as it is, other people can use the private or solo option, people like me already have only one mode in this game.