System Invasion?

[Zombi3]

I'm wondering if someone could explain this for me. We've been prepping FS 34 for expansion by keeping one of the factions in retreat, and all was going well until today's tick. Despite the system already having 7 factions present, an NPC faction has expanded into the system somehow - I thought that was only doable when a system has 6 factions only?

What's more curious is that said new faction and the one we had in retreat status are now at war, but how is that possible when both are under 7% influence?

I've something about the "invasion" state, but it doesn't explain this oddness fully. If any of you have any idea then please chime in

INARA

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Thanks!

 

[Zombi3]

And I believe I've just found my answer:

Expansion
A faction will attempt to expand to a new system when their influence reaches 75% in a system and they are not being blocked by a conflict state. At the end of the expansion state the faction attempts to expand to the nearest system within 20ly fewer than 7 factions present and if successful loses 15% of their influence in the system they expanded from. During the expansion state, they gain bonus influence for actions in that new system. If there is no valid system within 20Ly the expansion will fail and the faction will go into an investment state where actions will allow the next expansion to reach 10ly further. If a system is full but there is a faction with very low influence presence the expansion will work and immediately trigger an invasion war in the new system.

During the expansion state, the faction will offer expansions missions and ask for exploration data to be sold at the system they are expanding from. These actions have an unquantified positive effect on the starting influence in their new system.

 

[goemon]

you are correct.

invasion cancels retreat since fc update at least.

 

[Zombi3]

Thanks. Will whomever loses the war be removed from the system?

 

[goemon]

Thanks. Will whomever loses the war be removed from the system?

correct.
tick after the conflict has ended.

 

[Zombi3]

Much appreciated.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

And I believe I've just found my answer:

This is broadly right, wherever you found it, but there are some subtleties it misses, and a lot of pre-3.3 information which is out of date - I'll try to cover the bits it's missing.

A faction will attempt to expand to a new system when their influence reaches 75% in a system and they are not being blocked by a conflict state.

As of the 3.3 release, conflict states no longer block expansion. Though you will have difficulty getting to 75% influence while in a conflict state in the same system, of course, due to the influence lock ... you can start a conflict after the expansion has gone pending and it won't interfere with the expansion.

At the end of the expansion state the faction attempts to expand to the nearest system within 20ly fewer than 7 factions present

"within 20LY" is imprecise - the expansion range is measured on a cube with the centres of each face 20LY from its centre (i.e. a cube with sides 40LY long centred on the expansion system) which is aligned to the galaxy map grid. This means that expansions up to ~34LY are possible if the target system is in the correct direction.

Additionally, at this stage factions will try to avoid systems they have already retreated from - any previously-retreated-from system will be considered to be further away than any fresh system. How recently the retreat was, and whether the faction has retreated from it once before or ten times before, doesn't matter.

and if successful loses 15% of their influence in the system they expanded from.

Slightly surprisingly for information that mostly seems to be pre-3.3, this is correct and was added in 3.7 just a few months back.

During the expansion state, they gain bonus influence for actions in that new system.

I'm not sure what this is trying to say but it doesn't sound right.

If there is no valid system within 20Ly the expansion will fail and the faction will go into an investment state where actions will allow the next expansion to reach 10ly further.

Since 3.3 failing to expand no longer triggers an investment state - Investment is now caused by high levels of positive economic activity and does not affect expansions at all. The range is still extended, but this is not marked by any special states.

If a system is full but there is a faction with very low influence presence the expansion will work and immediately trigger an invasion war in the new system.

"very low influence presence" is true but incomplete - there are further conditions:

• the target faction must not be native to the new system
• the target faction must not already be in, pending or recovering any sort of war or election
• the target faction must have the lowest influence of all target factions allowed by the above rules in the entire expansion cube - it's not the nearest ... but equally the target influence can be very high in some cases.

During the expansion state, the faction will offer expansions missions and ask for exploration data to be sold at the system they are expanding from. These actions have an unquantified positive effect on the starting influence in their new system.

This may no longer be true. If it does still work, the effect is now fairly subtle.

 

[Zombi3]

Thanks for those clarification, they're very useful to know.

What rotten luck to have an invasion happen to the system we were trying to prep!

 

[goemon]

I'm not sure what this is trying to say but it doesn't sound right.

i think i can clear that up.
that source tries to explain different starting values after expansion.
of course it's wrong.
but you can actually push a faction to higher influence levels pre tick of expansion (as influence calculation happens after it).
for exampel -inf actions on all other factions not in conflict, or redeeming bounties via FC the tick before expansion should (will) lead to a higher starting influence.

 

[CMDR Melbridge]

@Ian Doncaster You seem to know a lot about this so wonder if you could help?
Does an invasion always trigger a war or will it be an election if e.g. both factions are Democracies?

 

[goemon]

@Ian Doncaster You seem to know a lot about this so wonder if you could help?
Does an invasion always trigger a war or will it be an election if e.g. both factions are Democracies?

it will trigger an election.

it is unknown, whether you still can invade a controlling faction by election (we failed at date of the FC update - might be patch related or not).

 

[Ian Doncaster]

@Ian Doncaster You seem to know a lot about this so wonder if you could help?
Does an invasion always trigger a war or will it be an election if e.g. both factions are Democracies?

This has changed back and forth but at the moment it's always a War (or possibly a Civil War if both factions were originally from the same system, but that'd be very rare).

 

[goemon]

This has changed back and forth but at the moment it's always a War (or possibly a Civil War if both factions were originally from the same system, but that'd be very rare).

independent of goverment types?
e.g. have you seen a invasion conflict war between two democracies for exampel?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

independent of goverment types?
e.g. have you seen a invasion conflict war between two democracies for exampel?

Most recent invasion out here was Social-Social and was a war

Looking at it this seems to have changed between May and July this year ... in May a Social-Social was an election, in July it was a war.

 

[goemon]

Most recent invasion out here was Social-Social and was a war

Looking at it this seems to have changed between May and July this year ... in May a Social-Social was an election, in July it was a war.

so around FC update most probably. well - our invasion election have been pre FC update.

i hope your exampel isn't one of those, where a player-backed minor faction description does not match the BGS behaviour?

do both factions go to elections with social non-player factions otherwise?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

i hope your exampel isn't one of those, where a player-backed minor faction description does not match the BGS behaviour?

There are a lot of those in Colonia, NPC factions too, with unusual ethos for their government.

As a result I know exactly which ethos everyone has - these are definitely both Social.

do both factions go to elections with social non-player factions otherwise?

Yes. And with each other, when there's not an invasion on

 

[goemon]

There are a lot of those in Colonia, NPC factions too, with unusual ethos for their government.

As a result I know exactly which ethos everyone has - these are definitely both Social.


Yes. And with each other, when there's not an invasion on

well, that is VERY interesting! we will atempt an invasion election at some point again, so - it will be interesting what will happen.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Here's a hopefully clear example of the change:
ICU Colonia Corps (Social Communist)
Likedeeler of Colonia (Social Democracy)

Kinesi (Eol Prou PX-T d3-1134) - History

cdb.sotl.org.uk

ICU invades on 27 April 3306, fights invasion election versus Likedeeler, wins.
Likedeeler re-invades on 22 July 3306, fights invasion war versus ICU

 

[goemon]

Here's a hopefully clear example of the change:
ICU Colonia Corps (Social Communist)
Likedeeler of Colonia (Social Democracy)

Kinesi (Eol Prou PX-T d3-1134) - History

cdb.sotl.org.uk

ICU invades on 27 April 3306, fights invasion election versus Likedeeler, wins.
Likedeeler re-invades on 22 July 3306, fights invasion war versus ICU

uhb - thank you! how strange! even if the idea of an invasion-election was very undemocratic for me as well...

 

[iiMStevo]

Thanks for those clarification, they're very useful to know.

What rotten luck to have an invasion happen to the system we were trying to prep!

I've legit just had the same, except from a player faction, that's in multiple states of conflict before expanding into my system