System map overhaul needed

[Sylveria]

I've also posted previously regarding plotting route navpoints and so forth- but FWIW I'll go ahead and repost the desire here as well.

I think it's important that people have more choice available to them, as I stated before. Having the ability to choose between 3D (Orrery) or Flat (current) maps would be useful, and I think it would also help those with the desire to use a navpoint/wavpoint plotting system to chart courses. This is NOT an autopilot, but rather just the ability to plan out trips. This is useful for almost anyone who travels more than a couple systems away- or even trades locally between systems to determine priorities in navigation.

Currently, we must keep opening GalMap/SysMap numerous times even in a simple trip. This does not increase "difficulty" in the game, it just makes it tedious and annoying. For an Explorer, it's very aggravating to not be able to fine tune long-distance trips- currently we're stuck with what the system picks out for us.

As a side note, I'd like to thank those who have contributed ideas- I think it's great to have a community that actually provides solutions and ideas rather than just "problems". Always easier to point out problems than it is to provide solutions or ideas, IMO.

Doesn't take much brain activity to moan and complain.

 

[danteuk]

Thats what a map is :facepalm:

Scale isn't actually needed on a map.

Rubbish.

The 'System Map' is not a 'map' - it's actually just a System Catalogue ( a list of objects that appear in that system )

It doesn't tell you where you are or how to get to anywhere - so it can not be used as a navigational aid - ie it can not be used as a map!

Even simple hand drawn pirate map has compass point / directions and distance ( 10 steps from big rock towards the palm tree then 4 steps towards the setting sun ).

 

[amigacooke {macOS}]

Where's this to do list you keep referring to?

It's on the to do list.

 

[Darkslayer]

A simple 2D top down view with distances between orbit lines is all I am asking for. All these other ideas seem great but if they complicate the matter to the point of it never being implemented then they could be looked at later.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

A simple 2D top down view with distances between orbit lines is all I am asking for. All these other ideas seem great but if they complicate the matter to the point of it never being implemented then they could be looked at later.

Except that there's no 'top' in a lot of systems. Sol is essentially a flat plane, but multi-star systems can have bodies orbiting at much more extreme relative alignments.
Distances between orbit lines don't work for places like Alpha Centauri where the defining characteristic of the system is emptiness, not to mention orbits can be highly elliptical which further confuses things.

 

[Cosmos]

There's a lot of factors to consider with something like this. What does it really add? I'm not disputing the fact that the orrery view would be immense and show things off in such an awesome way, but it has to be easily usable. There's so much data to show, so many different aspects of the game that need to be/could be visualised to give a greater experience. This is a huge technical challenge not just from a "how do we display the stellar/planetary bodies" angle, but also you have to consider what data would be relevant to explorers, what would be relevant to mission/passenger runners, combat pilots, system states, trading, and so on. There's so much data in the game, and it would be great to show it all. But each thing is a "cost" as far as development, querying the data, system resource, and also screen space. These are only the things that I can think of from the perspective of someone who doesn't really know the first thing about effective UI design, and that's already a tough set of questions to answer...

I wish I understood the finer points of UX/UI design to really engage in conversation here more... but I don't. Every so often the topic comes up internally and people think a bit more about it, but please don't hate me for setting a realistic expectation: it's an unlikely thing for us to see within the foreseeable future. Just know that I, and probably quite a few others, would love to see this feature in game. Actually, there's a lot of these kinds of features we'd love to see... hence the 'wishlist'.

Well if you want honest feedback the present system map is about as basic as we could get. It looks cheap, and has the quality of a dodgy indy game. There is nothing exciting or interesting about it, its functional.. Thats about it.

The orrey mockup picture shows something that would be a pleasure to use and looks like someone put a bit of effort into it, unlike the current one which, and I'm being polite, any intern could have knocked up in a few days.

Is it really necessary to cheap out on things like this and do the bare minimum?

The orrey could also lead to improved gameplay.. exploring, locating things.. Do you guys not think the current honk and scan, picture of a system, is incredibly simplistic and dull?

 

[shadragon]

It's not a map, it's a picture of the bodies in the sytem. There's no scale.

Scale is impractical on a system map.

Not saying improvements can't be made, but don't overlook the practical limitations of accurate representation when dealing with a solar systems scale.

Pluto is 19,680 ls from the Sun.

See this link for how big this is: http://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pixelspace_solarsystem.html

Hutton Orbital is 6,784,404 ls from it's sun. How do you accurately display Hutton Orbital's orbit without shrinking the rest of the system around the main star to a pixel sized dot? Explain how to represent that to scale with full functionality and I'll back you up.

 

[EUS]

Scale is impractical on a system map.

Not saying improvements can't be made, but don't overlook the practical limitations of accurate representation when dealing with a solar systems scale.

Pluto is 19,680 ls from the Sun.

See this link for how big this is: http://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pixelspace_solarsystem.html

Hutton Orbital is 6,784,404 ls from it's sun. How do you accurately display Hutton Orbital's orbit without shrinking the rest of the system around the main star to a pixel sized dot? Explain how to represent that to scale with full functionality and I'll back you up.

You realize there's already a zoom feature?
Zoom out, select/focus on target, zoom in.

This is not rocket science.

 

[NecasekO]

Scale is impractical on a system map.

Not saying improvements can't be made, but don't overlook the practical limitations of accurate representation when dealing with a solar systems scale.

Pluto is 19,680 ls from the Sun.

See this link for how big this is: http://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pixelspace_solarsystem.html

Hutton Orbital is 6,784,404 ls from it's sun. How do you accurately display Hutton Orbital's orbit without shrinking the rest of the system around the main star to a pixel sized dot? Explain how to represent that to scale with full functionality and I'll back you up.

Well, you do it exactly like FE2 did - you hide smaller bodies (and their orbit lines) when zoomed out and only display them when their size / orbital trajectory becomes relevant with your chosen zoom level. All of this is actually already implemented in ED and used in your scanner and supercruise rendering.

 

[Non Grata]

Explain how to represent that to scale with full functionality and I'll back you up.

A logarithmic scale (e.g. same as the scanner).

 

[dannysquid]

Scale is impractical on a system map.

When I was doing my (still not finished) mock up of how the system map could be enhanced with faction stuff, the paths of ships, point of interest etc I originally started off with a sort of idealised scale for everything with things positioned at nice neat distances and everything scaled around it. But very weird things start happening with elliptical orbits, offsets and any paths or areas you want to represent. A log scale works nicely for our solar system but I've no idea how it would work for larger, weirder systems with multiple stars etc

It gets quite fiddly if you're not careful.

I still think the actual benefits in terms of clarity and the sense of agency the player would have make it a problem worth solving. For many of us, the BGS is something you don't rally notice, with things like conflict zones, checkpoints, seeking foods etc... just bits of text to be ignored. If you could see all these things on a map, with faction control indicated and the movement of ships through a system represented (however abstractly) it would really bring this stuff to life and make it harder to ignore. You'd feel like you were exploring and investigating rather than just seeing things in a list of text.

 

[BarFly]

Hello,

instead of a orrery view map i would vote for a in system route calculator.
Mouseclick on the planets to explore and the calculator would give you the optimised route between them.
The parameters are all known and a average computer should handle that calculation with ease. What i don't know - how complex is it to implement and to program?

 

[Jools]

One of the areas this game is heavily lacking in in comparison to its two most recent predecessors, is the space ballet.

Without stardreamer and an orrery map there is no way (other than maybe waiting whole day for a single time lapse) to enjoy the beauty of the dancing systems

One of the greatest marvels to see in the former games - killed at the very beginning by short sighted cheap profit driven decisions

 

[Franc Kaos]

...Every so often the topic comes up internally and people think a bit more about it, but please don't hate me for setting a realistic expectation: it's an unlikely thing for us to see within the foreseeable future. Just know that I, and probably quite a few others, would love to see this feature in game. Actually, there's a lot of these kinds of features we'd love to see... hence the 'wishlist'.

Depressing, I'm guessing the engine isn't quite as modular as David Braben sold in the kickstarter, would explain the horror of the recurring bugs at every update and the glacial pace of development (and yes I'm not a programmer but I still have an opinion)...

Maybe in 2020 [yesnod] I'll wait.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

its strage,
a game that can render a whole galaxy in a few seconds, where you can zoom in and out seamlessly from whole to single stars.
it generates a star system in a few seconds when you first enter it, with all orbits and whatnot available from the first person perspective..

but it cant generate a navigatable 3D map of said starsytems?

 

[Wobblin-Gobblin]

Why is the system map not like the galaxy map? I want to manipulate it from any angle and see the exact positions of every object. That way I can plot a route for surface scanning that passes the most planets in a line. I don't like that the system maps shows the distance of the planets from the star but I cannot see my relative exposition to them. What do you guys think?

100% agree.

+1 rep for you.

Overhaul the system-map.

I can remember some pics shown where the sys-map displayed in 3d. I don't know where it was. It looked great.

 

[M66]

Why can't FDEV render it in the side screens? Turn your head and see the system map view.

Instead we get: hit a button and have the map view shot straight to our visual cortex, or the system view directly forced into my view..We are pilots...I don't want to take my eyes of the flying. having this 'map/system view' appear out of nowhere is embarrassing.

 

[Mengy]

its strage,
a game that can render a whole galaxy in a few seconds, where you can zoom in and out seamlessly from whole to single stars.
it generates a star system in a few seconds when you first enter it, with all orbits and whatnot available from the first person perspective..

but it cant generate a navigatable 3D map of said starsytems?

Sure it can, it would just require Frontier to develop it first. Heck the game all but makes the orrery map now, we just fly through it and don't have a "browser" to look at it in a concise manner.

 

[filthyneon]

let me say it before everyone else does...
Orrery Map please!!!!

YES! It has been long enough! How can they put off something that has been requested from DAY 1? Given the nature of actually generating a solar system, how much harder would it be to generate a 2D zoomable system at the same time?

I don't know, but I love the game anyway, I'll never create a "I'M DONE WITH THIS GAME!" thread, I'm hooked for life.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

I was a tad on the stompy side with those hopes and dreams wasn't I? So let me try to explain. There's a whole load of improvements that can be made to the current system, some additions, some refinement. This could happen in the next year of updates, so I won't say no on that. There's a lot of buzzing going on in the office as people are working hard the game. Loads being done across the game. We don't have unlimited funds, resources, and time so we have to be smart about what we do. What is being suggested and discussed in this thread (by some people) is going into the territory of a 3D orrery map with data points and contextual information accurately plotted. Essentially a to-scale replica of the system as an interactive (or at least a move/pan-able) entity.

Rebuilding the entire mapping system is an unlikely thing right now, which is what would probably be required (again, speaking from the perspective of a layman) for such a gargantuan task. Improvements and refinement, I could see that happening as you sometimes see in milestone updates. Rebuilding...? not for the foreseeable.

Both the Galaxy Map, as well as an Orrery System map open up so much potential for the game.

Right now, none of the maps are used anywhere near to their full potential. All manner of data could be portrayed on the galaxy map, along with variety of exploration tools to use. The galaxy map, really could be the starting point for any task within the game...but you are right, it would no doubt require a huge amount of reworking how the map functions. However I can't help but feel the current iterations of all the maps is a massive missed opportunity, they could very easily form the new foundations of the improved game.