COMPLETED CG Taurus Mining Ventures Initiative

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Most of the ED economy only makes sense if you presume that the activities we see are just a small slice of the economy. This is as it should be, I think - the game setting is pretty explicit about the fact that, no matter how rich and respected/feared we PFed types may be, we're still a few thousand weirdos in a galaxy with trillions of humans.

So in the case of mined commodities, you have to assume that the published prices are telling you something real, and work backwards from that. MMCs are demanded in huge quantities but command a very low price. What this tells me is that the ton-by-ton laser mining we are equipped for is NOT the primary source of MMCs on the market. Imagine for example that those big extraction bases on icy moons are digging it up by the megaton and shipping it directly to industrial consumers in those ubiquitous bulk hauler megaships. And therefore it really IS irrational for independent miners to waste their time extracting them, and it's economically fine that nobody bothers trying to satisfy that published demand. Except in a special case like this where moderate quantities are needed from a non-standard source on a short lead time - in which case the offer price is much much higher to compensate. In contrast, LTDs have low demand but extremely high prices, which tells you that the available supply is quite small. Individually prospecting and mining out asteroids probably IS the only source for these gems.

And I think this principle really works in a lot of cases - the economic role of independent pilots is to supply and move stuff that the megacorps won't, because it's hard to get in the bulk quantities they deal with, or needed today not next billing cycle, or illegal. That isn't to deny that there's also a lot of economic absurdity, especially when it comes to mission rewards, ship and equipment prices, and so on. Not to mention that NPC miners always seem to be going for water or bauxite or something, when this model tells you it should be just as irrational for them to be bothering with such materials as it is for us.

The issue with this explanation is, if that is the case, why list those minerals at all?

The asteroids we see clearly contain vastly more than we extract from them. Your average icy rock has a radius of maybe 250m, meaning it's got a mass of ~50,000,000 tons. We can mine approximately 10 tons of water from it, so the rest must be useless and automatically ignored by your ship.

So why pay attention to these ones at all? Why even SEE them? It would make far more sense for them to just be ignored by the computer entirely, as well.
 
Tip that I'm currently using:
  1. Zap rock with drilling laser. Get two items to come out. Stop firing. If there's no coltan, move on (and add them to the ignore list).
  2. If there's ANY coltan in either of the two samples, switch to prospector, attach it and let the examination begin. This'll give you the full amount you can get.
  3. Blast away. Remember to add anything you don't want to the ignore list.
  4. Once the asteroid is depleted, move to the next asteroid, repeat.
I found that greatly this greatly speeds up the process. Hope that helps.

1928 hours into the game and you just hit me over the head with the idea of "probing" asteroids with my mining lasers before wasting a prospector on it. One of the reason I still love Elite, despite it's many flaws :LOL:
 
The issue with this explanation is, if that is the case, why list those minerals at all?

The asteroids we see clearly contain vastly more than we extract from them. Your average icy rock has a radius of maybe 250m, meaning it's got a mass of ~50,000,000 tons. We can mine approximately 10 tons of water from it, so the rest must be useless and automatically ignored by your ship.

So why pay attention to these ones at all? Why even SEE them? It would make far more sense for them to just be ignored by the computer entirely, as well.
Yeah, that's a much better question. Flavor and immersion, or design idiosyncrasy? 🤷‍♂️

You can definitely say there's way more commodity types than you'd need for any sort of reasonable economic simulation. But at the same time, the distribution is very strange. The whole world of "stuff humans eat" is lumped into a few categories like "fruits and vegetables" "meat" and "fish", but we've got around fifty distinct metals and ores on the market, of which under a dozen are really ever relevant. Like, I get there being ninety different kinds of rock in a game like Dwarf Fortress, but it seems pretty superfluous here.
 
Well, I've not yet tried chipping rocks instead of prospecting, but since my lasers are the bog-standard short-range ones, I feel like I'd actually be slower doing it that way....
I have one of those engineered class 1 mining lasers but it isn't on my ship. are they any good? better than not engineered class 2?
 
I have one of those engineered class 1 mining lasers but it isn't on my ship. are they any good? better than not engineered class 2?
Well I'm not sure how quickly they mine stuff (is the damage per second a useful gauge of that?) but they have 5 times the range so chipping bits off instead of prospecting wouldn't need such a close approach.
Having said that, I tried it this evening and it wasn't as slow as I expected. I didn't quantify it so no idea if it's faster or slower than prospecting but clearly it makes your limpet supply last longer. (My patience is shorter than my Python's 192 limpet supply though, even when using prospectors! :))
 
Most of the ED economy only makes sense if you presume that the activities we see are just a small slice of the economy. This is as it should be, I think - the game setting is pretty explicit about the fact that, no matter how rich and respected/feared we PFed types may be, we're still a few thousand weirdos in a galaxy with trillions of humans.
Fundamentally disagree on that point. The player experience (i.e the reason someone purchased a game) must be the primary motivation for all mechanics put into a game.

This is not to be confused with "making the player the center of the game"... it's entirely reasonable to have the player be a forgotten unknown within the universe and have an enjoyable play experience, but that enjoyable experience must be front and center to the mechanics which support it. Conversely, delivering mechanics which don't contribute to that experience or are made easily redundant is a bad idea. This is one of those cases.

Take Papers Please as an example. It's UI if objectively bad. You could argue that it's because it's a dystopian setting... but that alone simply isn't good enough. Instead it's also central to the underlying game loops. It gets in the way of your effective progress... you can buy upgrades to work around that but at the cost of potentiality saving your family and yourself in the future. It's an active, considered choice of how you deal with that.

Cheap, mining- only minerals take the same effort as expensive things to move, and maintain their cheap value despite having no available supply on the market.... let's suggest it's because of big mining giants squeezing us out. So what? Can i fight back? Can i exploit this? Is there alternate use for these goods? Can i do anything that has meaningful impact to my play experience with this?

If there's no answer beyond "flavour", then it's just bad game design.

So in the case of mined commodities, you have to assume that the published prices are telling you something real, and work backwards from that. MMCs are demanded in huge quantities but command a very low price. What this tells me is that the ton-by-ton laser mining we are equipped for is NOT the primary source of MMCs on the market. Imagine for example that those big extraction bases on icy moons are digging it up by the megaton and shipping it directly to industrial consumers in those ubiquitous bulk hauler megaships. And therefore it really IS irrational for independent miners to waste their time extracting them, and it's economically fine that nobody bothers trying to satisfy that published demand. Except in a special case like this where moderate quantities are needed from a non-standard source on a short lead time - in which case the offer price is much much higher to compensate. In contrast, LTDs have low demand but extremely high prices, which tells you that the available supply is quite small. Individually prospecting and mining out asteroids probably IS the only source for these gems.
Except this is provably not the case, as there is no market supply of these materials in the game.

I don't take the same issue comparing say, Indite and it's low value, versus that of Gold, since there is market supply of Indite (although that has other game impacts). This exists entirely because there are these "unseen operators", and that is how they're observed. You could argue that "they must deal directly with consumers", but likewise you could argue not all producers can find consumers, or some producers have supply overrun that they have to offload on the markets.

This is the problem with "magic" as explanations, because suddenly everything including dissenting considerations are possible because "magic"

The truth is far more simple though; the market implementation is naive, and just presumes value is (inversely) proportional to supply/demand. Cheap products must be in common supply and demand, expensive products must be in scarce supply/demand (notwithstanding BGS state modifiers). It's as simple as that, but it breaks down as soon as you look at mining for goods that have no supply, but magically have substantially different values despite equal opportunity costs.

And I think this principle really works in a lot of cases - the economic role of independent pilots is to supply and move stuff that the megacorps won't, because it's hard to get in the bulk quantities they deal with, or needed today not next billing cycle, or illegal. That isn't to deny that there's also a lot of economic absurdity, especially when it comes to mission rewards, ship and equipment prices, and so on. Not to mention that NPC miners always seem to be going for water or bauxite or something, when this model tells you it should be just as irrational for them to be bothering with such materials as it is for us.
I don't think irrationality of the system is a justification to maintain irrationality elsewhere. There's no denying the entire economy needs a from-scratch do-over, but the reality of that is buckleys and none, so the need is to work within what's possible in the current mechanics to adjust.
It doesn't matter how rare a material is, markets work on what someone is willing to pay for them.
Yes, and if you think about what the motivations of what someone is willing to pay for something, it's
  • How badly you want it (Demand)
  • How much of it there is (Supply)
  • Opportunity cost; and
  • Available funds

Available funds is virtually not a consideration for players and definitely not NPCs, and Opportunity cost only relates to mining as an activity. That leaves just supply and demand being the motivators. And that's the naive system FD delivered, but mining is clearly an afterthought in this.
 
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Thought I'd fly out there and have my mining Anaconda delivered to the next best port but that would cost me 30mil, so nope, not worth the investment.
 
Yesterday I used 180 Limpets for 42T LH and 49T MMC and a little Bromellite and Tritium - most went on prospectors.
Some rings are better than others, some places in some rings are better than others:)

This morning in a single run I took about 240t of LH and MMC along with 60t of LTD's and 50t of Tritium, 400 limpets used in a T9. Would have preferred a bit more Tritium but you cannot win them all.

That was in an LTD hotspot 21k away, am mining and jumping my way back to the bubble.
 
If you have a FC and are in the bubble
Mining map has leaked/released... no more RNGing increase your rate once every 3 hours...
https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteMiners/comments/tuippm Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteMiners/comments/tuippm/mining_map_to_support_the_taurus_mining_ventures/
u177lwzbfbr81.png
 
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I wish someone would have told me to trade in my Carbon and Sulphur back home, I wasn't aware you can make so much just by mining....
 
Still can't believe people would put down an enthusiast in 2022
I'm not talking about the post, I'm talking about actually doing mapped mining. I can't imagine anything more immersion-breaking than referring to screenshots of asteroid fields, especially when they are predominantly used for money making in a game that virtually throws credits at you.

But hey, you do you.
 
I'm not talking about the post, I'm talking about actually doing mapped mining. I can't imagine anything more immersion-breaking than referring to screenshots of asteroid fields, especially when they are predominantly used for money making in a game that virtually throws credits at you.

But hey, you do you.

If I cared about immersion, the way the economy works would break that way more than the way asteroids do.
 
If I cared about immersion, the way the economy works would break that way more than the way asteroids do.
'Asteroids' don't break my immersion. Tabbing out of the game or looking at a second screen to check screenshots of them on google drive would though. There are levels of immersion; we all know the game economy is a joke in many ways but if you find it impossible to immerse yourself in the experience of playing that game at all because of it. you have my sympathy.
 
Mapped mining is not my style either, although I do use a second screen set on EDSM for spotting higher value planets - moons when traveling - exploring.
 
'Asteroids' don't break my immersion. Tabbing out of the game or looking at a second screen to check screenshots of them on google drive would though. There are levels of immersion; we all know the game economy is a joke in many ways but if you find it impossible to immerse yourself in the experience of playing that game at all because of it. you have my sympathy.

Is tabbing out to check Inara for the best prices really any better? By comparison, following a 'treasure map' is practically immersion building!
 
Is tabbing out to check Inara for the best prices really any better? By comparison, following a 'treasure map' is practically immersion building!
I don't know, ask somebody who does it. I will say that quickly glancing at live price information (which you would expect to be available in the game considering it's literally current technology) and slavishly referring to screenshots of the game for 'fly here, now fly here' instructions of how to game asteroid mining aren't even in the same ballpark for me, but like I said it's a question of where you draw the line for immersion breaking I guess.
 
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