Thargoid invasion - Next target systems?

[Kayvan]

Quick question regarding a Research Cutter build:
What type of shield generator works best? Regular, Bi-Weaves, or Prissies?
Reinforced or ELP?
I generally use Bi-Weaves on most of my shielded ships, the ones intended for combat anyway... but this isn't combat in the usual sense I guess.

 

[Planewalker]

Victory in Hyades Sector YZ-O b6-3!

Just wanted to thank you for making this thread; it makes keeping up a breeze.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Quick question regarding a Research Cutter build:
What type of shield generator works best? Regular, Bi-Weaves, or Prissies?
Reinforced or ELP?
I generally use Bi-Weaves on most of my shielded ships, the ones intended for combat anyway... but this isn't combat in the usual sense I guess.

That is an incredibly good question! Generally you are going to be under attack a lot, especially if solo, so it is as well to use Prismatic if you have it. Attempting to favour regeneration instead can go badly if you get no opportunity for such to occur, much the same as attempting to use a Repair limpet, so it will be better to invest in having a higher total. I started with a normal 8A shield and switched to Prismatic very recently, having started the four-week timer for Aisling Duval back when the initial talk of a Research method started.

That said, there are noticeable differences in shield performance depending on the situation. When I was summoning targets, I found that having only a Cyclops and its swarms actually allows some regeneration time, because drifting backwards makes the Cyclops take more time to reengage and the swarm missiles do not count as a direct strike. Combining that with the lower general Cyclops damage, I found that my hull integrity becomes critical first, and that I needed to use an occasional repair for a few seconds to keep the canopy healthy. This was in total contradiction to the capacity calculation, which said my hull should end up at around a third if the shield were to break—clearly the shield had regenerated a bit, although probably not more than would be provided by using Prismatic.

Conversely, a Medusa or Hydra has a much longer volley; there are some regeneration opportunities if it was summoned, but really the higher damage will overcome it, much like how we need to strike a Hydra together if we want to expose a petal efficiently. Also conversely, I have stopped summoning Thargoids and now operate only in Control systems, where at minimum I have Scouts around, potentially also a swarm if I get a nice early Cyclops interdiction and choose to start harvesting immediately. Both of those cases prefer the Prismatic.

There is also the case where Conflict Zones are present, which are chaotic but generally great for harvesting. The available fodder means that you can get a bit of regeneration and limpet repair done, although not so much that I would plan for that and not use a Prismatic shield. I find it best to embrace the chaos; the number of immediate attackers and the Interceptor behaviour varies wildly, and can result in intervals of high incoming damage and almost no limpets succeeding, but I promise it all evens out over the course of using 128 limpets. It is also slightly variance-reducing insofar as you get multiple Interceptors, giving an opportunity to choose the type you want.

Just wanted to thank you for making this thread; it makes keeping up a breeze.

You are most delightfully welcome! I have updated the progress just recently and there were a good few more Alert systems with fresh activity, though generally everything was as before but with higher numbers, and I have been calming the number of reports until something notable would change where Commanders would prefer to operate.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Victories in Col 285 Sector PM-B b14-5, HIP 20492, Lunguni and Poqomathi! That is two days and two of seven Invasions with the pacing having corrected a little, though I still suggest that port defenders plan ahead for all targets being done by Monday. Alerts are still progressing perfectly with an excellent gradient!

The Col 285 Sector PM-B b14-5 eviction was an INIV job to protect HIP 30260; as promised last cycle, we are going to do Col 285 Sector VN-Z b14-7 next to stem that forward Thargoid foothold at M. Hadad, then experiment a bit before deciding what to do next.

Invasions at 01:00 15th April 3309:
HIP 21724 Invasion 42% — Thor 30 Ly, 5 ports, 145 Ls 0.8g planet + 145 Ls 0.8g planet attack
HIP 20899 Invasion 38% — Indra 23 Ly, 3 ports, 2988 Ls 0.2g planet attack
Holvandalla Invasion 28% — Raijin 21 Ly, 5 ports, 19 Ls outpost + 43 Ls outpost attack

Alerts:
Ge Alert 84% — Taranis 28 Ly, 109 Ls starport, 34 Ls outpost, 45 Ls planet
Baudani Alert 66% — Leigong 25 Ly, 578 Ls outpost, 596 Ls planet
HIP 20485 Alert 54% — Indra 21 Ly, 27 Ls starport
Vogulu Alert 48% — Hadad 21 Ly, 336 Ls starport, 471 Ls outpost
Heng Alert 36% — Leigong 34 Ly, 318 Ls starport, 318 Ls planet
Lahua Alert 28% — Oya 19 Ly, 7 Ls outpost, 19 Ls planet

Clean-up:
Pegasi Sector QE-N a8-5 Control 14% — Raijin 23 Ly, empty
Trianguli Sector BA-A d84 Control 10% — Taranis 28 Ly, empty
Col 285 Sector OC-L c8-11 Control 8% — Hadad 29 Ly, empty

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Victory in Ge!

Invasions at 09:00 15th April 3309:
HIP 20899 Invasion 62% — Indra 23 Ly, 3 ports, 2988 Ls 0.2g planet attack
HIP 21724 Invasion 58% — Thor 30 Ly, 5 ports, 145 Ls 0.8g planet + 145 Ls 0.8g planet attack
Holvandalla Invasion 40% — Raijin 21 Ly, 5 ports, 19 Ls outpost + 43 Ls outpost attack

Alerts:
Baudani Alert 66% — Leigong 25 Ly, 578 Ls outpost, 596 Ls planet
HIP 20485 Alert 58% — Indra 21 Ly, 27 Ls starport, 27 Ls planet
Vogulu Alert 52% — Hadad 21 Ly, 336 Ls starport, 471 Ls outpost
Heng Alert 40% — Leigong 34 Ly, 318 Ls starport, 318 Ls planet
Lahua Alert 32% — Oya 19 Ly, 10 Ls outpost, 19 Ls planet
Namayu Alert 28% — Taranis 27 Ly, 255 Ls planet

Clean-up:
Col 285 Sector VN-Z b14-7 Control 32% — Hadad 27 Ly, empty
Pegasi Sector QE-N a8-5 Control 14% — Raijin 23 Ly, empty
Trianguli Sector BA-A d84 Control 10% — Taranis 28 Ly, empty
Col 285 Sector OC-L c8-11 Control 8% — Hadad 29 Ly, empty

 

[Kayvan]

Attempting to favour regeneration instead can go badly if you get no opportunity for such to occur, much the same as attempting to use a Repair limpet, so it will be better to invest in having a higher total. I started with a normal 8A shield and switched to Prismatic very recently

Care to post your current build? ^^
I'm plugging some numbers, but my EDSY-Fu is a bit rusty. Off hand I get the following baselines:
8C Bi-Weaves ELP Fast-Charge + 6x HD Shield Boosters = 4600 Shield, 490s regen (50->100%) = 4.7/s
8A Prismatics Reinforced Hi-Cap + 6x HD Shield Boosters = 8900 Shield, 3180s regen = 1.4/s
[pips to SYS affect regen rates equally so we can ignore them]

So, what's the break-even point - how many seconds of regen time do you need for Bi-Weaves to be better than Prismatics? That would be when
(8400 + 1.4*x) - (4600 + 4.7*x) = 0; which comes down to
2.357x = 2200;
x = 933

--> That's some 15 minutes of regeneration time. At this point, Bi-Weaves and Prissies will have afforded the same total shield strength. So if your typical sortie allows 20 min regen time, and you can keep each run short enough not to lose your shield entirely, Bi-Weaves are better. If you feel you can't regen more than, say, 10 minutes anyway, Prissies are the way to go, which will also allow you more time on target on a single run.
BTW I also ran the numbers for Reinforced Bi-Weaves; it makes little difference (maybe 40 seconds or so).

Of course any longer period of regeneration would require running away first, which probably means you have to tank some parting shots, which means more regen time needed; it all seems to be a bit unrewarding.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Care to post your current build? ^^

Of course! Originally I was using a solo Cutter loadout for summoning in Alert systems, and that was also prior to having the Prismatic shield with my anti-xeno Commander. With the Shield cell bank and 4 to SYS without regeneration, that is 26413 shield. That should need 2935 hull to support it, and it has 3471. As I noted above, it was able to regenerate a bit depending on Interceptor, though keep in mind that you will start getting continual swarms well before that 15 minutes. Flying well can help, except for moments when one needs to stop for limpets to return.

I am now running Wing research in Control systems; Col 285 Sectors PM-B b14-5 yesterday and VN-Z b14-7 just now (likely yet to update) were completed using a Cutter with regeneration beams. They do not have to be Short range, but that gives a lot of regeneration for very little distributor power (2 to WEP), and we do not move at all during this process. This is possible mostly because we choose a planet and drop there at around 50 km altitude, fly inverted so that limpets can return more easily, and enjoy having no swarms while shooting at Scouts for fun. This was very effective and we were harvesting well over the 64-sample capacity each, taking corrosive damage in the process, and I have therefore just now changed mine to have 80 corrosive cargo and no shield cell.

Of course any longer period of regeneration would require running away first, which probably means you have to tank some parting shots, which means more regen time needed; it all seems to be a bit unrewarding.

The worst part is the time spent without Research limpets active! Most likely it is best just to get a bit more shield, last a bit longer, and replace the time spent fleeing with time spent storing the harvest—though do not let me dissuade you from testing Bi-weave necessarily!

While solo, you should find that either a normal or Prismatic shield are already enough for a Cyclops that your hull is the limiting factor, even if Bi-weave might actually have been better. Basilisks would be an interesting case, because they overshoot so much that you have to follow them ever so slightly and you can get a good amount of regeneration time. With Medusa or Hydra, a Bi-weave likely will not last long enough to be worth considering the time spent regenerating.

 

[Northpin]

490s regen (50->100%) = 4.7/s

with the mention 8c Bi-weaves with Low power (the recommended experimental for size 7 PD) is 5.8
(and bigger with fast regen, but the size 7 PD cannot cope with it)

Edit: i'm using 8C bi-weaves on my AX cutter and i did tried the Prismos before, but i found the bi-weaves more effective generally speaking (i dont engage in soloing medusa or hydra in the Cutter)

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Victories in Col 285 Sector VN-Z b14-7, Baudani and HIP 20899! The third of seven Invasions is done with a fourth to follow soon, though the pacing is actually better now; the projected capacity is down to ten. Meanwhile, the Alerts are proceeding very strongly, so thank you to all who were/are happy to adapt to the situation!

Yukait is another INIV job, the third this cycle, this time a populated Control system. It seems to be 3–4 times more difficult to move than those similar unpopulated Control systems, though I am very sure that we can do it. This is not an experiment, at least not directly—additional progress there is very welcome!

Targets at 21:20 15th April 3309:
HIP 21724 Invasion 80% — Thor 30 Ly, 5 ports, 145 Ls 0.8g planet + 145 Ls 0.8g planet attack
Holvandalla Invasion 52% — Raijin 21 Ly, 5 ports, 19 Ls outpost + 43 Ls outpost attack
Yukait Control 28% — Hadad 26 Ly
HIP 117177 Invasion 14% — Raijin 25 Ly, 3 ports, pending attack report

Alerts:
Vogulu Alert 84% — Hadad 21 Ly, 336 Ls starport, 471 Ls outpost
HIP 20485 Alert 82% — Indra 21 Ly, 27 Ls starport, 27 Ls planet
HIP 6913 Alert 64% — Oya 20 Ly, 350 Ls outpost, 3682 Ls planet
Namayu Alert 64% — Taranis 27 Ly, 255 Ls planet
Heng Alert 54% — Leigong 34 Ly, 318 Ls starport, 318 Ls planet
Lahua Alert 50% — Oya 19 Ly, 10 Ls outpost, 19 Ls planet

Clean-up:
Pegasi Sector QE-N a8-5 Control 14% — Raijin 23 Ly, empty
Col 285 Sector TS-Z b14-5 Control 10% — Hadad 22 Ly, empty
Trianguli Sector BA-A d84 Control 10% — Taranis 28 Ly, empty

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Victories in HIP 20485, HIP 21724, Namayu and Vogulu!

Targets at 07:20 16th April 3309:
Yukait Control 66% — Hadad 26 Ly
Holvandalla Invasion 64% — Raijin 21 Ly, 5 ports, 19 Ls outpost + 43 Ls outpost attack
HIP 117177 Invasion 16% — Raijin 25 Ly, 3 ports, pending attack report
Kuruma Invasion 2% — Raijin 26 Ly, 1 port, pending attack report

Alerts:
HIP 6913 Alert 68% — Oya 20 Ly, 350 Ls outpost, 3682 Ls planet
Heng Alert 64% — Leigong 34 Ly, 318 Ls starport, 318 Ls planet
Lahua Alert 62% — Oya 19 Ly, 10 Ls outpost, 19 Ls planet
Gliese 9035 Alert 34% — Oya 20 Ly, 556 Ls planet
Ebisu Alert 30% — Taranis 21 Ly, 358 Ls starport, 1798 Ls planet
Minawara Alert 28% — Oya 23 Ly, 412 Ls planet
Kagutsuchi Alert 26% — Indra 22 Ly, 42 Ls starport

Clean-up:
Trianguli Sector BA-A d84 Control 20% — Taranis 28 Ly, empty
Pegasi Sector QE-N a8-5 Control 14% — Raijin 23 Ly, empty
Col 285 Sector TS-Z b14-5 Control 10% — Hadad 22 Ly, empty
LTT 11707 Control 10% — Oya 28 Ly, empty

 

[Kayvan]

General overview: this week we have 47 systems that are either on alert or being invaded. 12 of these are already resolved.
Then I just realized that this week we have 17 Unpopulated Alerts again. I thought the Goids were supposed to de-priorize those? That bothers me somewhat, because I suppose any that aren't quenched as Alerts will eventually flip due to lack of CZs.

So, 18 more populated systems that are under threat this week.
I predict one of them will be a goner -- Kuruma has 1 small outpost over 200.000ls far out -- ain't nobody got time fo' dat.
The rest are populated alerts, and without checking them out in detail rn, we should be able to handle the usual 10 or so if they slip into invasion state.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Then I just realized that this week we have 17 Unpopulated Alerts again. I thought the Goids were supposed to de-priorize those?

"De-prioritise" was an odd way of putting it. The Frontier-English translation can sometimes be a bit "close but not quite" synonym at times.

The cost to the Thargoids of them placing an Unpopulated Alert was multiplied by 4 (to make it equal to the cost of Populated Alerts), but their target priority selection wasn't changed to make them otherwise less likely.

It certainly reduced the number of unpopulated alerts that they placed - but at least in the short term, it also reduced the number of populated ones.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Victories in Yukait and HIP 6913!

Yukait was a little taxing, but @CMDR Vulkarius and I are quite proud of that. According to @Ian Doncaster with the alert report it should also represent Tau Puppis not being targeted next cycle, in addition to being one system retaken! At M. Hadad that leaves Ahol and Ramandji each with two empty attackers. It would be quite nice if we could stop at least one of those as well, though not before a quite nice break!

I am aware of the irony; the Alert drive limited the number of Invasions, and now our Control actions are limiting the possible Alerts, at least in theory. I did say that the next goal for Alert teams should be to adapt to Control, I would not have said it without doing it myself, and I would like to think that driving a Maelstrom back that way should be the outcome we all want!

Invasions at 15:10 16th April 3309:
Holvandalla Invasion 80% — Raijin 21 Ly, 5 ports, 19 Ls outpost + 43 Ls outpost attack
HIP 117177 Invasion 20% — Raijin 25 Ly, 3 ports
Kuruma Invasion 2% — Raijin 26 Ly, 1 port

Alerts:
Heng Alert 82% — Leigong 34 Ly, 318 Ls starport, 318 Ls planet
Ebisu Alert 70% — Taranis 21 Ly, 358 Ls starport, 1798 Ls planet
Lahua Alert 66% — Oya 19 Ly, 10 Ls outpost, 19 Ls planet
Gliese 9035 Alert 42% — Oya 20 Ly, 556 Ls planet
Hyades Sector AV-O b6-5 Alert 36% — Taranis 24 Ly
Kagutsuchi Alert 34% — Indra 22 Ly, 42 Ls starport
Minawara Alert 28% — Oya 23 Ly, 412 Ls planet

Clean-up:
Trianguli Sector BA-A d84 Control 28% — Taranis 28 Ly, empty
LTT 11707 Control 16% — Oya 28 Ly, empty
Pegasi Sector QE-N a8-5 Control 14% — Raijin 23 Ly, empty

Then I just realized that this week we have 17 Unpopulated Alerts again. I thought the Goids were supposed to de-priorize those?

Well, there were 23 populated Alerts, which is a higher number than 17...

That bothers me somewhat, because I suppose any that aren't quenched as Alerts will eventually flip due to lack of CZs.

I think you meant "quashed" there, and not necessarily! At INIV we have evicted three Control systems thus far this cycle, two empty and one populated, where one of those empty systems had Conflict Zones. In a Wing with regeneration beams, it was very much simpler just to drop above a planet, although it is quite true generally that choosing systems with Conflict Zones can be wise if other Commanders seeking to help.

I predict one of them will be a goner -- Kuruma has 1 small outpost over 200.000ls far out -- ain't nobody got time fo' dat.
The rest are populated alerts, and without checking them out in detail rn, we should be able to handle the usual 10 or so if they slip into invasion state.

Likely, yes—Invasions rate is slowing a bit with much seemingly moved over to Alerts, and could indeed leave Kuruma behind. It occurs to me that such a system can also be inconvenient for summoning, which is where adapting to Invasion/Control enables harvesting anywhere, especially if there is some closer planet to use.

It appears that your Alert discussion has also summoned @Ian Doncaster, to whom I was about to apologise in the analysis thread for disrupting M. Hadad so much, though on second thoughts I am sure the above will suffice!

 

[Blaggerdy]

So, 18 more populated systems that are under threat this week.
I predict one of them will be a goner -- Kuruma has 1 small outpost over 200.000ls far out -- ain't nobody got time fo' dat.

Although you don't have to go to the outpost? There are AX conflict zones from 4ls out, and combat aftermath or ax patrol sources. With only 3 invasions left one of which is near complete I think it could be achievable.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

It appears that your Alert discussion has also summoned @Ian Doncaster, to whom I was about to apologise in the analysis thread for disrupting M. Hadad so much, though on second thoughts I am sure the above will suffice!

There's not that much point in being able to predict Alerts if it's not at least sometimes used to shut them down ahead of time. Excluding a few extra controls from the list and re-running it at the end of the week will take about a minute.

 

[yttrbio]

Yukait was a little taxing, but @CMDR Vulkarius and I are quite proud of that. According to @Ian Doncaster with the alert report it should also represent Tau Puppis not being targeted next cycle, in addition to being one system retaken! At M. Hadad that leaves Ahol and Ramandji each with two empty attackers. It would be quite nice if we could stop at least one of those as well, though not before a quite nice break!

Do you have a sense of the total number of tissue samples it ended up needing?

 

[CMDR Vulkarius]

Do you have a sense of the total number of tissue samples it ended up needing?

Yep, almost exactly 1800, plus casual scout kills while doing it.
The first anaconda load of 144 was 8%, then exactly 360 more was another 20%.
Lost track of the third drop which put it on 66%, but then used the 144 = 8% "anaconda index" to estimate 34% for the last drop and it worked!

By the end there it was more efficient to keep one cyclops around above AB 1 and trade its attention so we can run to the carrier and back.
That left no time to measure the 2% quantum some more, but the first 2 drops were clear enough to go with 1800 total.
Hope that helps!

 

[yttrbio]

That's a lot less than I was expecting. HIP 8825 (19.96 ly out) was needing something like 10000. More than 5 times easier at 26.15 ly is definitely something. Arietis Sector JR-V b2-2, unpopulated but at the same range, was moving at about twice as fast, but a 2x populated modifier seems new, I recall it being much higher.

Were you in a wing when you turned the samples in to the rescue ship? I wonder if the wing multiplier applies here, too.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Victories in Ebisu, Heng and Holvandalla! Alerts are still going very strongly (well done!), the projection being around 19 at the moment, all populated. Two Invasions remain, one of which is understandably unappealing. Empty Control clean-up activity elsewhere has picked up a bit now, and in anticipation of protecting Ramandji I will be aiming to clear Col 285 Sectors RX-Z b14-0 and RX-Z b14-8.

Invasions at 00:40 17th April 3309:
HIP 117177 Invasion 34% — Raijin 25 Ly, 3 ports, 213 Ls outpost attack
Kuruma Invasion 2% — Raijin 26 Ly, 1 port, 251k Ls outpost attack

Alerts:
Lahua Alert 82% — Oya 19 Ly, 10 Ls outpost, 19 Ls planet
Gliese 9035 Alert 80% — Oya 20 Ly, 556 Ls planet
Hyades Sector AV-O b6-5 Alert 72% — Taranis 24 Ly, 22 Ls planet
Kagutsuchi Alert 40% — Indra 22 Ly, 42 Ls starport, 85 Ls outpost
Minawara Alert 32% — Oya 23 Ly, 412 Ls outpost, 412 Ls planet
Putas Alert 26% — Hadad 23 Ly, 572 Ls starport
Garongxians Alert 24% — Leigong 28 Ly, 5998 Ls starport, 6149 Ls outpost

Clean-up:
Trianguli Sector BA-A d84 Control 46% — Taranis 28 Ly, empty
LTT 11707 Control 40% — Oya 28 Ly, empty
Pegasi Sector QE-N a8-5 Control 14% — Raijin 23 Ly, empty
Pegasi Sector NY-O a7-2 Alert 12% — Raijin 25 Ly, empty
Col 285 Sector TS-Z b14-5 Control 10% — Hadad 22 Ly, empty
Pegasi Sector NY-O a7-3 Alert 10% — Raijin 25 Ly, empty

Were you in a wing when you turned the samples in to the rescue ship? I wonder if the wing multiplier applies here, too.

We were indeed! I had not considered any potential Wing multiplier, though I can say that the Wing was present throughout.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Kuruma will be a test of your mettle.
I'm expecting you to fail at that.
Prove me wrong.