Thargoids, INRA, mycoid virus, first Thargoid invasion war and the present...

[EdgeCrusher420]

I have some questions about the lore of Elite's past and more questions about what we are and are not doing in this new hostile encounter with the Thargoids that I'd like to ask and discuss.

Little background, I have about 1000 hours into the game, doing all different kinds of activities but believe it or not I have never actually encountered a Thargoid personally, let alone attack one. I did kind of always say to myself though that I'f they were to launch a major attack in game on humans and populated space then I would have to join the fight and push them back. I figured It's every humans duty to protect whats ours from aliens, right?

So I've been getting ready to start fighting at this point while I have also been looking up a bit of past information on previous war with the Thargoids and just what has occurred in this new conflict so far and I'm ending up with new questions.

I've read about INRA and how they developed weapons to fight Thargoids and ultimately developed the mycoid virus which was a bio weapon that killed large amounts of Thargoids and won the war when they retreated soon after. We also had a vaccine for it so it did't spread to a genocide. I also read about the shady stuff they did to CMDR Jameson etc. but I will be perfectly honest, most of the arguments against INRA just sounds like the bleeding heart liberal hippy talk that happens around every war and conflict where tough decisions are made. Same people who can't be bothered by fellow humans getting slaughtered every day but go berserk when you shoot a Lion...

My point isn't really to debate whether or not INRA was good or bad though (they obviously did regrettable things) but to answer the questions I have on how that all relates to this current conflict. See, apparently, Thargoids are no 50 or so LY. away from Sol and have been destroying a steady stream of stations, ships and humans lives along the way. Not to forget the whole abducting escape pods thing.

The 2 major questions/issues I have are this. Why does is at least appear that the superpowers of humanity don't seem to care really all that much about this incursion into the bubble? We are supposed to have capitol ships, new anti-Thargoid tech and Guardian technology now and you are telling me we cannot develop massive cap ship versions of these and gather large fleets to completely stop the Thargoids advance? I have seen videos of people soloing Thargoid encounters in Couriers and such ships but yet the navies of the Empire and Federation are either snoozing in dry-dock or found destroyed in Thargoid USS that frankly make no sense to me. What is destroying Cap ships and cutters etc. in the dozens? Nothing we have seen in game, IMO, would have this power. Not to mention what is disabling the stations themselves.

Regardless of whether or not we will ever get to see the Empire or Federation jump into a big Thargoid battle like we have now with capitol ship battles or whether or not we get to have a truly cool battle for human space or not, I still have one more question as it relates to the mycoid virus and the Thargoid retreat in the previous war. Quite simply its this. Why the flying F don't we just mycoid their asses again. I mean truly and honestly, why is this even an issue at all, why are we allowing ONE station to fall let alone leave them to arrive on Sol's doorstep. It breaks the reality of human behavior to just say that INRA was bad um-kay so we got rid of everything they ever developed or learned about how to fight Thargoids.. Your lying to yourself If you don't think we would still absolutely have mycoid missiles pointed at Thargoid space an attack deterrent. To basically tell them this is what you get if you try it again.

It truly does boggle my mind why we allow the Thargoids ANY leeway to kill humans and push us out of our space when we have already developed the weapon that can kill Thargoids immediately and without risk to human lives. We even have new info about how the Guardians basically perished as a race from fighting Thargoids in some forever war but we were able to develop a super-weapon against them in pretty short order. Weren't they supposed to be advanced or something? Even If It never gets used again do you really think people like the terminator Hudson wouldn't bring up even the suggestion of using it again?

Does Frontier really not know how write a real war-time scenario of this scale? I'm sorry to say but it all seems very amateur writing to me. Does nobody really understand war between alien races enough to write a believable one now? I firmly believe NOTHING would ever be more uniting for the human race then a war with a completely different alien race. We are all humans, they are not. Why are we not getting this feeling?

I have not read the books, all what I know I got from in-game or from the wiki etc. I am open to hearing what information I'm missing from them that will make this current situation make sense to me. Let me know below.

 

[Factabulous]

I've read about INRA and how they developed weapons to fight Thargoids and ultimately developed the mycoid virus which was a bio weapon that killed large amounts of Thargoids and won the war when they retreated soon after. We also had a vaccine for it so it did't spread to a genocide. I also read about the shady stuff they did to CMDR Jameson etc. but I will be perfectly honest, most of the arguments against INRA just sounds like the bleeding heart liberal hippy that happens around every war and conflict where tough decisions are made. Same people who can't be bothered by fellow humans getting slaughtered every day but go berserk when you shoot a Lion...
.

You should visit the bases in the game - might change your mind.

 

[Quantis Trap]

OP, take care that you're only factoring in parts of the lore which apply to the Elite Dangerous timeline. I believe some of the things you may be factoring in are not in that timeline.

Also, take into account the proven actions of the Thargoids. The Thargoids could have wiped out the entire bubble several times now, but instead they chose to only attack aggressors. Aggressors, being those who fire on them and AEGIS and their affiliates who have wiped out millions of them in the past with the Micoid virus.

When they attack stations, it's only AEGIS stations or affiliated stations and those attacks deal minimal casualties, only disabling the stations ability as a threat.

If Thargoids are invaders, they're the most incompetent invaders the galaxy has every seen!

 

[Mole HD]

You should visit the bases in the game - might change your mind.

^^This. I visited all of the INRA bases out of boredom initially but soon became engrossed with the story behind the voice records left at the stations. I often wondered (like the generation ships) why the entire story just fittered out into nothingness. One of the more intriguing journeys I've made in E-D, I genuinely got caught up tracing the voice records and finding out just what had gone on...

You can find all the INRA bases here as well as many other interesting places to visit... ED Bearing

 

[Quantis Trap]

I have a question I don't know the answer to. Are there any stations which have been attacked so far which were not in directly or indirectly affiliated with AEGIS or Guardian Technology?

 

[Factabulous]

I have a question I don't know the answer to. Are there any stations which have been attacked so far which were not in directly or indirectly affiliated with AEGIS or Guardian Technology?

Yes. None of the recent attacks have aegis links. Well, unless you count the fact aegis pointed them out as being targeted, and even that won't be true soon.

Your earlier post about thargoid not attacking is not entirely correct, scouts attack on sight. Unless you count dropping in on an nhss3 with tea and biscuits as an aggressive act

 

[EdgeCrusher420]

CMDR Quantas Trap. I have heard this notion said before but I feel like its full of all kinds of incorrect premises. I don't believe the attacks are nearly as justified or whatever as you claim they are. Thargoids are killing a path towards Sol and we can't have a policy of appeasement when they get here.

We know this even more now due to the guardian revelations don't we? Can we not dispel this false notion that they are abducting people and bringing them to a happy place? I stand by what INRA did. One of the big points of contention was that they tested the mycoid on a live Thargoid... Is this really supposed to make me feel that bad after seeing Thargoids kill and abduct humans of their own? This is a quote from that scientist in charge of the mycoid virus experiment on a Thargoid.

"I know there are some that will condemn me for my part in this project. Let them, I harbour no remorse.
The Thargoids understand only one thing, destruction. They will not stop until ever last one of us has been reduced to dust. We have created a weapon that can prevent such a catastrophy. We have a moral Obligation to use it."

I guess I agree with him. You cannot let the Thargoids attack Sol freely.. The more tapes I listen to from INRA the more I agree with them and realize that If they were still around, we wouldn't worry a bit about no Thargoids coming around our stuff. And that in no way means I want to slaughter every Thargoid indiscriminately. I'm just a realist that puts his race first.

 

[DNA-Decay]

Placeholder - BRB


Actually, yeah naah.

OP is dog whistling up a bunch of lobster-loving Alt-wrong politics, and he can buy his own beer.

I’m out.

 

[jacob99]

Your earlier post about thargoid not attacking is not entirely correct, scouts attack on sight. Unless you count dropping in on an nhss3 with tea and biscuits as an aggressive act

As do some interceptors I think. Had one do it earlier anyway, threat 6 seemed to use the scouts as bait and then a cyclops jumped in, EMPd and started tearing the place up. Medusa's have been known to be hostile on site as well.

 

[EdgeCrusher420]

I understand the Thargoids mindset in this war its the Humans' mindset that is a mystery to me.

Thargoids were hostile on sight in the first war and they are/will be hostile on sight in this war as well. Ask the Guardians.
I honestly thought we were past believing they were friendly.

Give me a Cobra Mk.3 loaded with mycoid missiles and I will Jameson an end to this war right now. No more dead or abducted humans, no more destroyed stations and no more war. I stand by my statement in the OP that the opposition to fighting Thargoids is completely misguided hippy nonsense. People like that can never be in charge of a war for humanity.

 

[Sapyx]

Why does is at least appear that the superpowers of humanity don't seem to care really all that much about this incursion into the bubble? We are supposed to have capitol ships, new anti-Thargoid tech and Guardian technology now and you are telling me we cannot develop massive cap ship versions of these and gather large fleets to completely stop the Thargoids advance? I have seen videos of people soloing Thargoid encounters in Couriers and such ships but yet the navies of the Empire and Federation are either snoozing in dry-dock or found destroyed in Thargoid USS that frankly make no sense to me. What is destroying Cap ships and cutters etc. in the dozens? Nothing we have seen in game, IMO, would have this power. Not to mention what is disabling the stations themselves.

I assume it takes time to remodel and re-integrate new tech (in this case, Guardian and AX tech) onto old battle platforms. Capital ships still haven't been adapted to use the current Frame Shift Drive, they use old hyperspace-based propulsion. They also can't do it to the entire fleet all at once, since that would leave them with no ships available for current active duty. One assumes they're working as fast as they can in converting them. Meanwhile, unconverted ships are being attacked and destroyed.

...I still have one more question as it relates to the mycoid virus and the Thargoid retreat in the previous war. Quite simply its this. Why the flying F don't we just mycoid their asses again. I mean truly and honestly, why is this even an issue at all, why are we allowing ONE station to fall let alone leave them to arrive on Sol's doorstep. It breaks the reality of human behavior to just say that INRA was bad um-kay so we got rid of everything they ever developed or learned about how to fight Thargoids.. Your lying to yourself If you don't think we would still absolutely have mycoid missiles pointed at Thargoid space an attack deterrent. To basically tell them this is what you get if you try it again.

You seem to be assuming that they didn't already try this. I would assume that they did indeed try this, and it didn't work.

In 1918, a naturally-occurring variant of the influenza virus killed millions of humans on Earth - it was ten times more lethal than four years of World War had been.

That same variant of the virus is still around today, yet practically no-one dies from it. Why not? The simple answer is: immunity. Everyone alive today is descended from someone who survived exposure to the 1918 virus.

I assume the Thargoids are the same. The current generation of Thargoids are survivors of the human bioweapon that nearly wiped them out. They, and their ships (it's my understanding that the mycoid virus not only was lethal for individual Thargoids, but attacked and crippled their organic-based spaceships) are now immune to the original mycoid virus. Also, the Thargoids are not a nonsentient victim of Human pest control. They're quite capable of genetically engineering themselves and their ships to no longer be vulnerable to the mycoid virus, or any reasonable variant of it.

I assume one of the main (secret) focuses of AEGIS is the research and development of a new, improved mycoid virus (or similar bioweapon that does a similar job), one that works on the current generation of Thargoids. And, preferably, one that is 100.00% effective, rather than 99.95% effective. Because, as we can see with the current Thargoid threat, 99.95% effectiveness simply isn't good enough.

Since the Thargoids are still attacking, one can reasonably assume that mycoid virus v2.0 has not yet been developed.

 

[EdgeCrusher420]

I assume it takes time to remodel and re-integrate new tech (in this case, Guardian and AX tech) onto old battle platforms. Capital ships still haven't been adapted to use the current Frame Shift Drive, they use old hyperspace-based propulsion. They also can't do it to the entire fleet all at once, since that would leave them with no ships available for current active duty. One assumes they're working as fast as they can in converting them. Meanwhile, unconverted ships are being attacked and destroyed.

It doesn't make any reasonable sense that we are caught so unprepared for Thargoids considering we already know them to be an enemy to humans from the past war. Remember, Thargoids might be new to us players but in the lore of ED we should know a lot more about them and we would never just "forget" they exist out there and "forget" how to fight them successfully. It also makes no sense we cannot outfit them fast enough or whatever. There is no urgency by the NPC's and superpowers of the game and its not believable. We would absolutely man up and do what we had to do on triple overtime to save earth from killer aliens... but we are not.

You seem to be assuming that they didn't already try this. I would assume that they did indeed try this, and it didn't work.

In 1918, a naturally-occurring variant of the influenza virus killed millions of humans on Earth - it was ten times more lethal than four years of World War had been.

That same variant of the virus is still around today, yet practically no-one dies from it. Why not? The simple answer is: immunity. Everyone alive today is descended from someone who survived exposure to the 1918 virus.

I assume the Thargoids are the same. The current generation of Thargoids are survivors of the human bioweapon that nearly wiped them out. They, and their ships (it's my understanding that the mycoid virus not only was lethal for individual Thargoids, but attacked and crippled their organic-based spaceships) are now immune to the original mycoid virus. Also, the Thargoids are not a nonsentient victim of Human pest control. They're quite capable of genetically engineering themselves and their ships to no longer be vulnerable to the mycoid virus, or any reasonable variant of it.

I assume one of the main (secret) focuses of AEGIS is the research and development of a new, improved mycoid virus (or similar bioweapon that does a similar job), one that works on the current generation of Thargoids. And, preferably, one that is 100.00% effective, rather than 99.95% effective. Because, as we can see with the current Thargoid threat, 99.95% effectiveness simply isn't good enough.

Since the Thargoids are still attacking, one can reasonably assume that mycoid virus v2.0 has not yet been developed.

Your first sentence says I'm assuming things and the second sentence starts with how "You assume..." and the rest of your reply is you just assuming things there are not mentioned or supported in game (that I know of). I'm not slow, I thought of all of that before my posting but didn't mention it because there is zero in game evidence for it. In this future a war with aliens would be on every news channel in every human system at all times. News would travel nearly instantly and we have no real info to go on about anything you mention above.

Now if they did say that somewhere and I missed it then I will admit my ignorance and be happy to get more lore about the game but as it is your assumption is too much for me to go along with. If not for simply the reason that once you have WMD technology you cannot put it back into pandora's box. Like nuclear weapons in our present, no country will even NOT have nukes after declaring that they have them. Meaning even if you never intend to use it, you will still need it as a deterrent so others don't use it on you. Mutually assured destruction has prevented more nukes from falling after WW2. My real point is though that SOMEBODY (Aegis, superpowers, another clandestine agency, people like Ram Tah or Palin) would have taken that mycoid virus info and improved on it or at the very least stored it away for safe keeping. Again, I just don't believe that being caught so flat footed is possible giving the history of the human race and the psychology of the real world.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Mycoid likely will not work again. One of our story's climax is likely that we are pressed to use Mycoid again, only to find out that it doesn't work anymore.

According to the Equinox Project, or rather the Mega Ship GCS Sarasvati that was set up to monitor Thargoids approaching human civilization, Thargoids never left, they seeded the worlds, waiting to pop up again like they did. (They can hide in hyperspace/extra-dimension)

Then one of the Inra bases confirm that a vaccine is created, that it cannot reverse the damage done, but can prevent new damage from Mycoid. Considering that they're insectoid, their immune system will pass down when they "breed" new Thargoids.

Also considering the basis of the Mycoid is essentially a fungus, I speculate that the Cyclops are the new Thargoids, Basilisk were damaged by Mycoid, but not severely and were saved by the vaccine, and Medusa was heavily damaged by Mycoid, but survived either on their own or through the vaccine at a very late stage. This would explain the coloration match Mycoid's and the weird spike growth on the Medusa.

The age of their samples when collected also support this theory.

The Thargoid Scavengers are continuously "repairing" and "fertilizing" the Thargoid structures, and "tending" to the large barnacle forests. This is likely repairing Mycoid damage. We know how Thargoids use a special resin to run just about all their tech. When the resin is solid, it's armor that work with meta alloy (produced by their seeds mining planets), when it's liquid, it's lubricating and running to where it's needed (like blood), and when it's gas (super heated), it's corrosive. While damage done by the Mycoid cannot be reversed, but nothing stop Thargoids from repairing the damage by layering on top of the damage.

At least this is what I believe at the current stage.

 

[EdgeCrusher420]

Thanks for the nice info and reply. I appreciate the work you put into thinking about Thargoid immune system etc but doesn't this again just assume that the mycoid virus wont work again with no real in game info to say it wont?

When presented with the silly idea that we did not use the virus again right away on them I understand that we will try to fill in the blanks and try to figure out why that is. It makes sense what you are saying from a speculative point of view but I don't really see it as being good enough without in game proof.

I mean for every time somebody says that "the Thargoids probably became immune to mycoid because you know, humans have developed immunities to some past diseases" isn't it just as true that they may never be immune to it. It doesn't really matter how many years we have known about plague or anthrax those are always going to be deadly to us. Some things you don't just develop immunities to. Also, after developing the initial strain, if the Thargoids did develop an immunity couldn't we just make a new strain. We do that stuff with diseases and vaccines today.

It just feels like the Thargoids just appeared on the scene yesterday but, in reality, they have been around and threatening for a while now and in reality the arms race never truly ends. You are always preparing for the next war/invasion and humans wouldn't have just forgot about developing anti-thargoid tech after the first war. For example Aegis, I'm fine with the idea that INRA was shut down and Aegis was started as basically a "morally ethical" INRA but what happened in between the hundreds of years without them. Nobody cared to research Thargoids anymore? Nobody thought it was a bad idea to just let all our research and weapons developed to fight Thargoids just rot away and be forgotten?

If we did as a race forget about the first war and how it was won then we deserve to get rolled over by Thargoids.

 

[jacob99]

Thanks for the nice info and reply. I appreciate the work you put into thinking about Thargoid immune system etc but doesn't this again just assume that the mycoid virus wont work again with no real in game info to say it wont?

When presented with the silly idea that we did not use the virus again right away on them I understand that we will try to fill in the blanks and try to figure out why that is. It makes sense what you are saying from a speculative point of view but I don't really see it as being good enough without in game proof.

I mean for every time somebody says that "the Thargoids probably became immune to mycoid because you know, humans have developed immunities to some past diseases" isn't it just as true that they may never be immune to it. It doesn't really matter how many years we have known about plague or anthrax those are always going to be deadly to us. Some things you don't just develop immunities to. Also, after developing the initial strain, if the Thargoids did develop an immunity couldn't we just make a new strain. We do that stuff with diseases and vaccines today.

.

Realistically though, would the Thargoids really turn up again if they hadn't found a cure or become immune to mycoid in some other way? They must know that we had the means to wipe out their entire species last time, so it would be irrational for them to turn up again without some assurance that this threat has been dealt with.

 

[Surprised Brony]

I mean for every time somebody says that "the Thargoids probably became immune to mycoid because you know, humans have developed immunities to some past diseases" isn't it just as true that they may never be immune to it. It doesn't really matter how many years we have known about plague or anthrax those are always going to be deadly to us. Some things you don't just develop immunities to. Also, after developing the initial strain, if the Thargoids did develop an immunity couldn't we just make a new strain. We do that stuff with diseases and vaccines today.

I'm sure Thargoids are intelligent enough not to walk back into a toxic place without a countermeasure. They've been around for millions of years. They're not going to let a primitive species with only a millennium of interstellar travel under their belt wipe them out with the same strategy twice.

Not only would knowingly returning to certain death be stupid, but new strains aren't just simple to pop out. You can't simply mutate one protein and send it out. You would likely just neutralize whatever life form you were trying to create. AND we might not have enough data about their development since our last encounters to just throw a new Mycoid out. I'll bet its being worked on regardless, though.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Everything we've seen seems extremely twofold, almost schizophrenic on the Thargoid part.

- despite nearly being wiped out, they returned for some reason
- despite getting their rears handed left&right by primitive Cobra Mk.III's w/ Military Lasers, they chose to come back fully knowing (Probes) our tech has developed and evolved, making us a formidable and even more lethal threat to them
- despite them supposedly being advanced, they're unable to conduct in even the most basic communication to transmit their needs? Ridiculous for such a vulnerable species that almost went extinct.
- despite them having shared Universal Translation equipment with the Alliance and held limited Diplomatic Relations with peaceful parts of mankind in the distant past, they forgot all the benefits of that approach?

If it's being run by a hive intelligence, it must be either
- suicidal
- or so desperate that it accepts the insane risk
- or so stupid that it repeats the exact same Mistake once again
- or suffers from insanity/some hive mind disease

Either way, they're not too bright by not clearly communicating. Their tech is probably too primitive to Analyze our Communication and Language at this time.
And since they have little to no effect anyway, their presence almost blends in with the mayhem humans cause amongst themselves anyway. Stations temporarily falling into a "need some Repairs" State being the only exception, although UA Bombing used to have similar effects, minus the amount of Materials required to patch it back up.
(all those Superpowers and Factions involved aren't too bright either, though... They can hire NPCs to do these delivery jobs just as well but refuse to do so. Their loss for only accepting Pilots Federation Members as support)

 

[Surprised Brony]

Everything we've seen seems extremely twofold, almost schizophrenic on the Thargoid part.

- despite nearly being wiped out, they returned for some reason
- despite getting their rears handed left&right by primitive Cobra Mk.III's w/ Military Lasers, they chose to come back fully knowing (Probes) our tech has developed and evolved, making us a formidable and even more lethal threat to them
- despite them supposedly being advanced, they're unable to conduct in even the most basic communication to transmit their needs? Ridiculous for such a vulnerable species that almost went extinct.
- despite them having shared Universal Translation equipment with the Alliance and held limited Diplomatic Relations with peaceful parts of mankind in the distant past, they forgot all the benefits of that approach?

If it's being run by a hive intelligence, it must be either
- suicidal
- or so desperate that it accepts the insane risk
- or so stupid that it repeats the exact same Mistake once again
- or suffers from insanity/some hive mind disease

Either way, they're not too bright by not clearly communicating. Their tech is probably too primitive to Analyze our Communication and Language at this time.
And since they have little to no effect anyway, their presence almost blends in with the mayhem humans cause amongst themselves anyway. Stations temporarily falling into a "need some Repairs" State being the only exception, although UA Bombing used to have similar effects, minus the amount of Materials required to patch it back up.
(all those Superpowers and Factions involved aren't too bright either, though... They can hire NPCs to do these delivery jobs just as well but refuse to do so. Their loss for only accepting Pilots Federation Members as support)

+rep

Two main possibilities.

First one: It's humorous that some people point to clues that humans and Oresrians secretly work together, yet these mostly-docile Thargoids in-game won't even attempt communication. If they wish to avoid unnecessary death, they better start talking. Even if we're a meat shield to them, diplomacy would make us a compliant meat shield.

Second try: And even if all the crazy conspiracies are true, whoever is pulling the strings is seriously not thinking straight. I don't see the benefit to fanning the flames of war. Must be a case of "bad guy thinks he's the hero" complex.

Starting to hope this narrative doesn't let me down.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I mean for every time somebody says that "the Thargoids probably became immune to mycoid because you know, humans have developed immunities to some past diseases" isn't it just as true that they may never be immune to it. It doesn't really matter how many years we have known about plague or anthrax those are always going to be deadly to us. Some things you don't just develop immunities to. Also, after developing the initial strain, if the Thargoids did develop an immunity couldn't we just make a new strain. We do that stuff with diseases and vaccines today.

The vaccine description from the INRA base clearly describes it as "can stop further Mycoid damage, but cannot reverse damage already done by Mycoid."

That is pretty much confirmed immunity right there.

 

[jacob99]

Everything we've seen seems extremely twofold, almost schizophrenic on the Thargoid part.

- despite nearly being wiped out, they returned for some reason
- despite getting their rears handed left&right by primitive Cobra Mk.III's w/ Military Lasers, they chose to come back fully knowing (Probes) our tech has developed and evolved, making us a formidable and even more lethal threat to them
- despite them supposedly being advanced, they're unable to conduct in even the most basic communication to transmit their needs? Ridiculous for such a vulnerable species that almost went extinct.
- despite them having shared Universal Translation equipment with the Alliance and held limited Diplomatic Relations with peaceful parts of mankind in the distant past, they forgot all the benefits of that approach?

If it's being run by a hive intelligence, it must be either
- suicidal
- or so desperate that it accepts the insane risk
- or so stupid that it repeats the exact same Mistake once again
- or suffers from insanity/some hive mind disease

Could it possibly be down to the supposed second species of Thargoids attacking to other species? The current lot could be getting badly beat by the other lot, hence they return to human space as a last resort to try a distract the others while they get away. It's certain death v possible death, so of course they'll choose possible and come through human space.