The 5 Dlc Challange

I want to understand your point.

Planet Zoo implemented diving mechanics in a dlc. And the "backened costs of coding" were not too expensive.

But you are saying that flying mechanics (which already exist in their other game JWE2) are just too expensive to implement.


So diving is possible to code. Flying far too expensive. That makes total sense.

"Here's an entirely new game"
What's "new" about it?
Flying mechanics, they're just like diving mechanics but in the air...and £49.99.
 
"Here's an entirely new game"
What's "new" about it?
Flying mechanics, they're just like diving mechanics but in the air...and £49.99.
I agree. Can someone enlighten me what important, game-changing they could add in PZ2?

If we assume next 5 dlc will bring around 30 animals then final roster could include even 150 species. Many of them from top of players wishlists (with unique animations/rigs). Looking at JWE2, most of them would make final cut in potential sequel.
Question is: How many new species would be part of sequel roster (like amaragasaur is for jwe2)?
Or even better question: WHAT frontier would try to put in dlcs. Yet another South America pack? But this time with animals casuals dont even know, because familiar faces from prequel are in base game now.

I think making one bird pack is more reasonable than developing new game. Birds for me are a lot cheaper than sequel where you need also add many more things.
 
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Flying would be a similar behavior (coding-wise) in the game to swimming: an animal moving in an open environment at different heights. How it would work exactly, not sure, but it'd basically be swimming in the air, right?
 
Okay, I get where this is confusing. Yes, flying is a vertical motion that is definitely akin to swimming as far as moving in 3d space.

The difference is that Planet Zoo defines enclosures as walls (that can be damaged or climbed) and a floor/ground that is impenetrable. Birds would require 3d bounding in a way that seals and penguins don't have. There's basically no "ceilings" to habitats, so unless the collision boundary for walls is infinitely tall (which it isn't if animals can climb over them), then that's going to be a whole thing.

And that's just basically putting a lid on the box box.

Actual flying and perching animations might not be a huge thing. But let's consider perching. You add a tree branch to the iguana exhibit, there are spawn points where that iguana can appear. For birds to fly point to point in a habitat, means they need to have defined perch points. The trees that exist in-game right now don't have that. They'd either have to add/define perches to all the trees that exist, or birds would only be able to land in trees added in the pack that introduce them.

On top of that, there'd need to be multiple sizes of perch points. A space were a small bird could perch wouldn't be suitable for something like an eagle. So there'd need to be "layers" to the trees to differentiate where birds could land based on size.

And I didn't get to things like netting, domes, special doors, etc. My local zoo has a double door system that allows guests to enter the aviary section while simultaneously keeping birds from getting out. But there's not really a mechanism in game for that. Guests in-game aren't supposed to be in an enclosure and that could be a whole thing. Special doors, special staff, new behaviors, and almost certainly a lot of new objects.

And also, there's an element of scale. The game can only zoom in so far, and most small animals are exhibit animals. Up until they added prairie dogs, I was legit expecting the game to skip small animals. A lot of the nuance of having birds is going to be lost from the overview perspective. I can see large birds like hawks, eagles, vultures, owls, parrots, flying foxes being easier to implement than smaller birds.

It's not that I think they need to be a whole new game, just that there's a lot of little things to check off for birds to be in-game and behave correctly, and there's probably a little more to go into flying behaviors than there is for swimming. The game already defined water. There is a boundary, and the animal is basically either in water or out of water. A bird or bat, even perched, is always in airspace.

And I hope I'm wrong. I hope it is as easy to implement birds as it was to add seals. I just don't feel like it will be.
 
I think making one bird pack is more reasonable than developing new game. Birds for me are a lot cheaper than sequel where you need also add many more things.

Yeah, of course it is!

I really would hate a new game that added basically just 20 flying species

To clarify, what I mean is that adding birds is simply going to be a decent amount of code work for the Frontier, just for us the consumers to ONLY get 8 birds (or 7 birds and a bat).

Where I was going with this is that base game appears to be hard-coded for 12 dlc packs, of which we presumably have 5 left.

There are only 2 ways I see an aviary pack making sense.

1. The Aviary Pack is the next dlc and each dlc after 1.8 adds more birds.

2. After the 12th dlc, they go to Planet Zoo v2.0. Not PZ2 as a sequel, necessarily, but the first actual expansion pack.

The reason I'm thinking they're going to go with Option 2 is simply that the 8th dlc in the series is getting a little late to be adding birds/aviaries and we the fans have a laundry list of asks as far as birds go. We've never gotten more than 8 animals in a pack and I without trying can name 8 species of just parrots I want in the game.

But hypothetically, lets say they did add 24 animals in the aviary pack. I picked that number as a guesstimate because the base game started with 20-odd exhibit animals. And then let's say each subsequent dlc pack added 2 more flyers. That'd close out the game with 32 species of flyers. Thats honestly not too bad. That should cover parrots, bats, birds of prey, birds of paradise, etc.

But again, we've never gotten a dlc that big before, and that's the only reason I'm thinking it'll be an expansion pack, not a dlc pack.
 
Okay, I get where this is confusing. Yes, flying is a vertical motion that is definitely akin to swimming as far as moving in 3d space.

The difference is that Planet Zoo defines enclosures as walls (that can be damaged or climbed) and a floor/ground that is impenetrable. Birds would require 3d bounding in a way that seals and penguins don't have. There's basically no "ceilings" to habitats, so unless the collision boundary for walls is infinitely tall (which it isn't if animals can climb over them), then that's going to be a whole thing.

And that's just basically putting a lid on the box box.
Why is it possible to define a floor (for swimming), but not a roof (for flying)? - upward movement could be constrained by objects or by some kind of horizontal barrier (mesh, netting, walls etc.) in precisely the same way the same objects can be used to constrain downwards movement.
Actual flying and perching animations might not be a huge thing. But let's consider perching. You add a tree branch to the iguana exhibit, there are spawn points where that iguana can appear. For birds to fly point to point in a habitat, means they need to have defined perch points. The trees that exist in-game right now don't have that. They'd either have to add/define perches to all the trees that exist, or birds would only be able to land in trees added in the pack that introduce them.
Well, you could (maybe) just define 'perch points' using climbable objects (i.e., birds could perch on any claimable point, so long as it is horizontal enough - we know that the game knows how horizontal climbable objects are since they animate climbing differently if an surface is vertical or horizontal).
On top of that, there'd need to be multiple sizes of perch points. A space were a small bird could perch wouldn't be suitable for something like an eagle. So there'd need to be "layers" to the trees to differentiate where birds could land based on size.
Sparrows and similarly small birds are very unlikely to be added as full habitat species. For larger birds, it would be easy enough to only include 'perch points' big enough for the biggest species - they would then be fine for all smaller species.
And I didn't get to things like netting, domes, special doors, etc. My local zoo has a double door system that allows guests to enter the aviary section while simultaneously keeping birds from getting out. But there's not really a mechanism in game for that. Guests in-game aren't supposed to be in an enclosure and that could be a whole thing. Special doors, special staff, new behaviors, and almost certainly a lot of new objects.
Mesh already exists, there's no reason that netting objects couldn't be made too. Guest gates already exist - they should already be airlock doors but aren't (although you can place two in sequence to achieve this effect). What do you mean "Guests in-game aren't supposed to be in an enclosure" - quite a few animals are specifically tagged as walkthrough species.
And also, there's an element of scale. The game can only zoom in so far, and most small animals are exhibit animals. Up until they added prairie dogs, I was legit expecting the game to skip small animals. A lot of the nuance of having birds is going to be lost from the overview perspective. I can see large birds like hawks, eagles, vultures, owls, parrots, flying foxes being easier to implement than smaller birds.
Could be solved by a) not including small birds, or b) by utilising an exhibit-like system with looped animations (could also be used for small mammals).
A bird or bat, even perched, is always in airspace.
So all you' have to do is provide feeders and other enrichment as 'perch points' that birds land on. Many birds land on the ground anyway (e.g., aquatic birds). If perching birds are 'always in airspace' that might even make things a little easier - there's no need to transition between 'land' and 'air'.
 
Again, my point isn't specifically that there's insurmountable issues with adding birds, it's that the effort of adding them - this late in the franchise - doesn't make sense if we're only going to get 8 species.

We could absolutely, absolutely get birds. I am totally on board with birds. But I think we need a lot of birds to really make that worth while.

Even if the implementation of birds is easier than I think it'll be - and I hope it is - I can't get my head around an aviary pack of just 8 birds (or 7 birds and a bat).
 
It makes perfect sense, if we're only getting eight species at first.
And that's a good point. I was speculating that we're at v1.7.1 and that I thought birds might be something for v2.0 and I think I lost people that 2.0 was going to be an entirely separate game rather than a major update.

This is one of few games that might not actually have hard sequels. What I mean by that is that Planet Zoo 2 is probably going to start with all the animals ever released for PZ1. Like loading PZ2 and it allowing you to upload your PZ1 zoo is actually a very realistic expectation. They didn't do that for JWE, but I think that would be possible. Or maybe I'm being optimistic. Like I absolutely hate that no matter how many expansion packs EA has for any iteration of the Sims, the next base game starts at ground zero again, and maybe I'm projecting some of my concerns for Sims 5 on how Frontier is going to handle PZ when we run out of dlc packs.
 
And that's a good point. I was speculating that we're at v1.7.1 and that I thought birds might be something for v2.0 and I think I lost people that 2.0 was going to be an entirely separate game rather than a major update.
I think it's important to remember that we only know about the next five DLC's because that's what's in the files now. They weren't there before, and after the 12th DLC there might be another five in the files. It's also good to note that the version numbers can extend past 10; they're not counting in decimals. So we can get 1.10.0, 1.11.0, and so on.

That said there's probably a finite amount of content they can add while still experiencing high numbers of sales. At a certain point the "core" fanbase will be the only ones buying new packs, and I'm not convinced this "core fanbase" is large enough to sustain the game on its own.

As for a sequel, you might be right, but there is a lot that can be improved upon with a new game engine; the pathing system, the way guests interact with the world around them, the way lighting works, the in-game clock, weather, and seasons, the simplistic biome system, making backstage areas actually functional, hyper-custom exhibits, and so on. I also don't think they'd need to include all the current animals in a sequel; a lot of people would buy them again in DLC's, and a lot of the newer players would be willing to buy DLC.
 
I'll admit, I thought the gamecontent12 thing meant that after 1.12, that was going to be it, either major expansion to 2.0 or actually go to sequel. If we are getting 1.13 and beyond, who knows.

And I'm not saying a sequel would have to start with the full library of PZ1, but I really, really hope. If we get 8 animals in each of the next 5 dlc packs, and these do turn out to be the last five packs for the game, then the game ends at 156 animals. That's not impossible to add back to PZ2. I agree with everything you're saying about changes to engine, path system, interaction, I'm just saying for a Steam game, I don't inherently see the poly count jumping or anything, so all the models, textures, animations, etc could carry over... if they wanted to.
 
  • Aviary Birds DLC (Xmas 2021)
  • 1. Scarlet Macaw
  • 2. Toco Toucan
  • 3. Rhinoceros Hornbill
  • 4. Bald Eagle
  • 5. Harpy Eagle
  • 6. Great Grey / Snowy Owl
  • 7. Andean Condor
  • 8. African Grey Parrot

  • Rewilding Europe DLC + Russian Theme (Spring 2022)
  • 1. Eurasian Lynx
  • 2. Przewalski's Wild Horse
  • 3. Alpine Ibex / Chamois
  • 4. Wolverine / European Pine Marten
  • 5. Griffon Vulture

  • Arboreal Mammals + enhanced climbing mechanics (Summer 2022)
  • 1. Sloth
  • 2. Hamadryas Baboon / Gelada
  • 3. Black Howler Monkey
  • 4. Lar Gibbon
  • 5. Common Squirrel Monkey
  • 6. Emperor / Golden Lion Tamarin
  • 7. South American Coati
  • 8. Chameleon

  • Australia Pack 2 DLC (Autumn 2022)
  • 1. Wombat
  • 2. Tree-Kangaroo
  • 3. Tasmanian Devil
  • 4. Platypus
  • 5. Emu
  • 6. Spectacled Flying Fox
  • 7. Kookaburra
  • 8. Frilled-Neck Lizard / Thorny Devil

  • Aquatic Pack 2 DLC (Winter 2022)
  • 1. Capybara
  • 2. Grey Reef Shark
  • 3. West Indian Manatee
  • 4. Amazon River Dolphin
  • 5. Pacific Walrus / different seal species
  • 6. Reef Manta Ray
  • 7. Leatherback Sea Turtle
  • 8. Great White Pelican
 
I’ll complete the sentence:

…. if they wanted to reduce their profits


Lol what are you saying? I mean this with all due respect, because sometimes I struggle to understand where people are coming from.

"all the models, textures, animations, etc [from planet zoo] could carry over to Planet Zoo 2 but only if they wanted to reduce their profits"

What a sentance.

1) You think reusing assests is reducing profits??
That's not how reusing models works. I have a very remedial understanding or programing and I know reusing models is done throughout the industry to save money and time.

2) So, this hypothetical Planet Zoo 2...wouldn't have any of Planet Zoo's old models/animations/textures....but will add flying mechanics.

So, if Planet Zoo wants to increase profits they will create every model and animation from scratch for Planet Zoo 2, is what you are saying?

Your logic is absent.
 
For me it would make more sense for frontier to sell as lot DLCs as possible when the selling stays high enough. In fact they can make 90 Euros with 72 animals (when you take 9 further animal packs until 2023, with normal packs even more) instead of about 50-55 Euro which was the base game price. I somehow do not think that a planet Zoo part 2 will come within the next 5 years because the old game still works good. The thing is that we already have most of the must have animals in the actual game. What would be the new highlight animals for a new game in middle future? So I think the possibility to get stuff in 2023 is still a very valid Option (when frontier still makes Profit with the game).
 
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