They went the Apple way and the software intentionally decreases performance every year. And they are quite old...
The AI and on-foot combat is actually quite good...
- Thread starter KG_Jedi
- Start date
Do you have some examples of any games where AI isn't "crap"?
The AI in EDO is definitely not one of its current weaknesses. And I don't recall any AI in any shooter being believable by any stretch of the imagination.
So, get to it: Cite examples of how it should be done.
EDO AI beats the AI in GTA5, RDR2, Skyrim, FO4 and CP2077. Which is conceptually the type of game to compare with: games that have an okayish FPS element embedded in a larger open world game.
Maybe not perfect, but very much up to the task.
Maybe not perfect, but very much up to the task.
I've played three of those titles and I can say with quite a bit of confidence that these do not demonstrate "AI" at all and the way the NPCs behave in all three is extremely basic. EDO obliterates them in terms of how its AI behaves, imo.
Good examples. I still loved playing those three games (still play CP2077) despite that issue because I don't think we need MENSA enabled AI in order for a game to be enjoyable.
The only major issue with the AI in EDO, at least from my perspective, is that it appears to bear a significant CPU overhead and likely causes quite a bit of the frame rate issues witnessed at settlements. This can be observed during a CZ when the battle ends and the frame rate (at least for me) jumps up suddenly, as the AI reverts to a basic routine on a loop.
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I don't know, that sounds a bit biased or exaggerated. I'm not hating the AI in Elite, it does it's job. But it's just as basic imho. They follow their predefined patrol route with some idle animations at their waypoints and if they found an enemy, run straight at it and shoot it. Oh, and they can also do the Time Warp I guess. "And then a step to the right."
It does nothing that hasn't already been done what, 20 years ago? The first Far Cry had AI that would coordinate and flank you. I'm not saying Elite needs more than this basic AI, but I don't think it's fair to ridicule these other games and applaud Elite when in my opinion it's pretty much just as basic.
I loved playing all of those three games so I can't really see how it's biased of me to say I think their AI is basic. If I hated even one of them then perhaps then you'd have a point.
In all of those titles I played, the AI is rudimentary, serves a purpose and does very little except move targets about in a very direct and, mostly, thoughtless way for you to kill. Nothing mind-blowing. Yet one is a 2020 AAA title, doing nothing new compared to titles 20 years ago. This doesn't make the game bad. It's just AI. It's not "bad" AI, either. It can sometimes work quite well.
My point is, the guy a few posts up was saying the AI in EDO is "crap" in a thread that's celebrating the game's decent AI, when I can't see it being any worse than many titles I've played. I think they are biased. And I'm willing to bet they don't actually play many games with AI that's not "crap" by the standards they apply to EDO.
The AI in EDO does some pretty neat stuff. It's predictable, it's relatively easy to decipher and it's nothing like real life. Like every game on the planet. But it does some cool things that not all games do. It's pretty good.
It's also not the weakest part of the expansion. I'm unsure where I "ridiculed" other games in comparison to EDO. And perhaps some bias might be lending you to jump to that conclusion when I literally said I loved those games in the post you quoted, albeit in a cherry-picking way. Am I biased when I say I love playing EDO but it's incredibly flawed in several departments? I don't think so.
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rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
My only gripe with the AI is that when they find a dead body they will investigate for a short while, and then just go back to their routine without raising an alarm.
"Oh no, someone killed my fellow guard on duty! Let me investigate... ok, nobody is around here, must have been the wind... just gonna leave my mate lying there and go back to my patrol. Later, sucker!"
"Oh no, someone killed my fellow guard on duty! Let me investigate... ok, nobody is around here, must have been the wind... just gonna leave my mate lying there and go back to my patrol. Later, sucker!"
there are some things that need work.
if the npc uses the plasma ar he will never hit you unless you deliberately stop moving. the plasma bolts are so slow the ai simply can´t use this weapon.
sidestepping is absolutely op against npc´s and will make them miss most of their shots. sometimes they miss every shot because i took a step to the left.
the ai beelining towards you is very easy to abuse(with the executioner, the first shot downs their shield, they stagger, second shot kills, repeat)
i think it should be way harder to clean a whole settlement.
if the npc uses the plasma ar he will never hit you unless you deliberately stop moving. the plasma bolts are so slow the ai simply can´t use this weapon.
sidestepping is absolutely op against npc´s and will make them miss most of their shots. sometimes they miss every shot because i took a step to the left.
the ai beelining towards you is very easy to abuse(with the executioner, the first shot downs their shield, they stagger, second shot kills, repeat)
i think it should be way harder to clean a whole settlement.
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I completely agree.
And you were saying the AI in those other games was crap and Elite obliterates them while I think they are pretty much on the same level. That's why I said your post was a bit biased.
Yeah, thanks. That was unnecessary.
This is one of those realism vs fun debates isn't it? At the moment they will investigate, find nothing and return to patrol. If they find more bodies then it seems to me that they spend longer looking around already, which adds to the tension if you want to snipe them (and encourages you to kill nearby NPCs before they go on alert).
What's the more 'realistic' option?
NPC spots the body - someone has been killed! They alert all the other NPCs to switch on their shields and start searching. NPCs know about snipers so probably a good idea to check the building roofs.
That's more realistic, but now there's zero point to your super sniper rifle - as soon as the first body is spotted their shields go up and it's a slug-fest as you can't one-shot them. Which is fine, but has removed all uses for sniping outside of assassinations (probably)
God-Like bot level in the 20+ years old UT could be quite frustrating at times.
I vaguely recall this. Unsure if "godlike" is an example of AI that's supposed to behave like a human
The body discovery AI routine works almost exactly like CP2077's. Works well enough I think.
At some point, AI has to reset. It can't start living a realistic life ongoing from the moment something we do triggers it to react
"Oh no, my buddy got killed! I need counselling..." /calls shrink for an appointment, attends appointment, goes into long-term therapy, loses wife and children(Yes, this was slippery slope fallacy but the point is clear: AI must reset so that the game continues. Even raising the alarm, as you point out, must eventually reset because they may never find you and someone else may turn up to play the game too).
I agree and I did edit that out before you'd finished replying so that was ships crossing in the night, I'm afraid.
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I vaguely recall this. Unsure if "godlike" is an example of AI that's supposed to behave like a human
Those bots were able to do what humans could do too... runs, dodge, evade, actually aim when firing and not at last, taunt you
Compare with a 5 chevron grunt in EDO - almost no evasion at all (the only ones showing some signs of evasion being sharpshooters), no jumping, not using the surroundings, firing like stormtroopers.
As i said above, the only notable difference is in the behavior of the sharpshooters. They usually evade and try to take cover after getting hit. They use the environment to take cover and shoot from cover
Ah, and one more notable mention - grenade throwing is quite accurate, as opposed to firing their weapons where they behave like stormtroopers.
The AI during CZ is also disappointing and could (and should) be polished a lot.
For me there is little joy into clearing an on-foot CZ, unless there is an incentive like the CG that just ended (and in which i did exclusively on foot CZ and got 2 of my toons in top 10% with 61 and 59 millions in combat bonds, one of the toons being in G2/G3 store equipment with no engineer unlocked)
Last night myself and Torgny decided heists were back on the menu.
We headed out having found a local boom system.
Upon landing near the targeted base we raced one another srvs to the settlement.
Found the location of the alarms
and whilst just about to switch em off all hell broke loose within the cmd centre.
Guards civvys techs all dying like flys as we let rip.
I could see the alarm panel not 20 feet away but the 2 doors meant crossing to it was certain death...must've been a dozen of em lobbing grenades in and rushing our position.
Things were desperate!@ death was discussed in discord... we rallied as the enemy's thinned...their corpses scattered willy nilly.
I heard my shields pop to max.. I ran to the panel switching it off.
Minutes later all was calm.
We had to remind one another why we'd come here?!.
I looked at the top right panel expecting failed mission....But the gig was still ON.
wow..!!
Amazing fight!!
We grabbed the sample and drove to our dismissed ships.
They came down side by side landing simultaneously.
Fab gameplay. Coop rocks
We headed out having found a local boom system.
Upon landing near the targeted base we raced one another srvs to the settlement.
Found the location of the alarms
and whilst just about to switch em off all hell broke loose within the cmd centre.Guards civvys techs all dying like flys as we let rip.
I could see the alarm panel not 20 feet away but the 2 doors meant crossing to it was certain death...must've been a dozen of em lobbing grenades in and rushing our position.
Things were desperate!@ death was discussed in discord... we rallied as the enemy's thinned...their corpses scattered willy nilly.
I heard my shields pop to max.. I ran to the panel switching it off.
Minutes later all was calm.
We had to remind one another why we'd come here?!.
I looked at the top right panel expecting failed mission....But the gig was still ON.
wow..!!
Amazing fight!!
We grabbed the sample and drove to our dismissed ships.
They came down side by side landing simultaneously.
Fab gameplay. Coop rocks
It can be improved. But not before performance is dramatically improved (everywhere, including optimising the AI) because AI requires CPU cycles and the more advanced it is, the more it'll slow processing down.Those bots were able to do what humans could do too... runs, dodge, evade, actually aim when firing and not at last, taunt you
Compare with a 5 chevron grunt in EDO - almost no evasion at all (the only ones showing some signs of evasion being sharpshooters), no jumping, not using the surroundings, firing like stormtroopers.
As i said above, the only notable difference is in the behavior of the sharpshooters. They usually evade and try to take cover after getting hit. They use the environment to take cover and shoot from cover
Ah, and one more notable mention - grenade throwing is quite accurate, as opposed to firing their weapons where they behave like stormtroopers.
The AI during CZ is also disappointing and could (and should) be polished a lot.
For me there is little joy into clearing an on-foot CZ, unless there is an incentive like the CG that just ended (and in which i did exclusively on foot CZ and got 2 of my toons in top 10% with 61 and 59 millions in combat bonds, one of the toons being in G2/G3 store equipment with no engineer unlocked)
CZ AI has more opportunity to fall short, the variables are dramatically more complex. So I agree that's where it needs most work.
Or you have to time your shots so the corpses dont lay in open view. I wish they would trigger the settlement alarm way, way sooner. And while EDO is more challenging than the ship bits of ED, it could be upped a bit. Or have it be security-dependent. High-security settlements trigger alarm instantly when something weird happens. Heck, make them suspicious when you bunny hop around rooftops in secure military settlements.
Deleted member 182079
D
You should try MGS5. AI is pretty decent iirc (been a while, I no longer play games on my PS3). And it's 6 years old now so should be available for next to nothing. Runs smoother as well
As for CP2077, I'm not so sure - I play on the harder difficulty and I think this impacts the dumbness of the AI. I've engaged with them in firefights where they would lob grenades (more tactically, not the kind of silly spamming you see in EDO) and move cover, and even flank me (unless it was a bug
).
The average player doesnt bother about gameplay implications when they complain.
rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
Or we could go the mid-ground and instead of raising shields they call for reinforcements to increase patrols? More targets to snipe, but also more danger of being spotted.
A dead body just shouldn't mean that all goes back to normal after 2 minutes like nothing's happened.
Someone mentioned Cyberpunk, but I think in that game "back to normal" is much more realistic (in lore context) due to people getting killed much more often AND you are usually killing wanted criminals - quite the opposite to Elite Dangerous universe, where a sudden death of a guard in a remote settlement is not that common and definitely should mean more than "must have been the wind".
Well, as I said - the more you kill the longer until they return to patrol (I believe). Not sure it's realistic for the guard to say "Hey everyone, come over here where Jake was killed! We'll switch off our shields in 2 minutes though as it's probably fine!"
And is it more fun
If you want to stealth kill everyone then all it does is make you wait longer (because there are now more to kill),and if you plan to rush them then it's no more of a challenge.I think I'm pretty happy with the stealth aspect of NPCs - they still detect me at some stage (because I get lazy), and having them sneak up behind me on a rooftop while I think I'm hunting them makes for variety. I think if anything the mobbing behaviour could do with work - once they know where you are it too often ends up with 'run around, shoot the NPC that follows. If they outnumber you run around the next corner, repeat until done'. Or remove all the G5 armour - I might have to give that a try