The Console Is Not Your Enemy

[Zeeman]

Explain the dumbing down of textures in the cockpits of various multi-crew ships.

When people say "Dumbing down" it's not the game mechanics they're talking about, its the visuals being reigned in so as not to stress the less powerful consoles, making the game more playable across all platforms and easier to work on as a whole for the developer since they're not breaking the game apart into 2-3 separate entities to satisfy the wants of the various groups of players.

I have noticed this trend. Some of the earlier version visuals (pre XB1) were beautiful - especially asteroid belt "mist". There are some truly beautiful images out there from that period. Ship cockpits, too... Some very recent picks prove this point.

Optimist me hopes it's a step backwards to allow more steps forwards, but cynical me just wants to slap optimist me in the face.

*OUCH!*

Z...

 

[stormyuk]

Think about what you said. Now appreciate why what you said is utterly insulting.

Seems to be the general tone I am picking up here.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

Seems to be the general tone I am picking up here.

The problem is, a lot of these guys are running cards that cost upwards of £500. They certainly brag about it.

But just as a Ferrari driver isn't entitled to use his full horsepower on a public road, an individual with top-spec gear in his computer is not entitled to "the perfect experience" at the expense of people who can't afford his gear, in the form of lower-spec gamers not being able to access a game.

The sense of entitlement in this thread is horrible.

 

[Geraldine]

Old Battles

HEY!!!! ST rules, OK??!?

.......even if I got an Amiga 1200 later.

Well....um...er....I...um kinda done the reverse

Spoiler

sorta wrote: Hey Geraldine! We had MIDI ports

Yea, ok Frank, I will give you that but the Amiga had Paula!

Spoiler

[video=youtube;Y1F0X-rK8HY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1F0X-rK8HY[/video]

Anyways this PC vs Console thing, it has nothing on the great Amiga Vs Atari war. No one won that war by the way, all that is left is survivors and ancient BBS posts.

 

[Enderby]

Ah man the Atari midi capabilities! Loved my ST. RIP.

 

[stormyuk]

Anyways this PC vs Console thing, it has nothing on the great Amiga Vs Atari war. No one won that war by the way, all that is left is survivors and ancient BBS posts.

True fans had both. I had too many of all the variants at one stage or another.

 

[Privata]

I agree , console gamers are not my enemy.

However the under-powered , outdated consoles hardware is.
The game looked better in the early days. and we keep getting minor graphical downgrades here and there.

FD by no means is aiming to downgrade the PC version , but I bet that if FD had an idea that could work , but not on the consoles hardware they would scrap it instead of having it be only on platforms that support it.

However the downgrade in visuals , and gameplay (mostly linked to challenging content) has been around way before the Xbox version of the game. whenever someone has a performance issue , instead of adding new settings everyone gets a downgrade.

Even if its not on purpose whenever they make something today they have to think ''would it work on console?'' so insteaf of making a great model and then making it work on console they might make it work on console first and then just give us that model.

 

[Geraldine]

True fans had both. I had too many of all the variants at one stage or another.

Well said stormyuk, both my Amiga collection and my ST now sit (if somewhat uneasily) next to each other now. Still fire em up too from time to time because sometimes I just gotta have that retro buzz that only these old dinosaurs can give. [yesnod] I oftentimes wonder tho if the generation today will, in later years, get that same buzz from their favorite machines like the X Box 1s and PS4s or maybe it's something peculiar only to the folks who were gaming in the 80s and early 90s. In any case, time will tell.

 

[Starbreaker]

My older brother was not happy when I started talking about selling my Amiga to buy a PC, I got the Amiga when the PC started catching up and surpass it.

It was like I was committing an act of treason, he was one of the first people to own an Amiga in my country, pretty hardcore supporter for a long time even after Commodore folded.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

Well said stormyuk, both my Amiga collection and my ST now sit (if somewhat uneasily) next to each other now. Still fire em up too from time to time because sometimes I just gotta have that retro buzz that only these old dinosaurs can give. [yesnod] I oftentimes wonder tho if the generation today will, in later years, get that same buzz from their favorite machines like the X Box 1s and PS4s or maybe it's something peculiar only to the folks who were gaming in the 80s and early 90s. In any case, time will tell.

The buzz for the Xbox and PlayStation are already a thing. The market for quality original consoles for both system lines is already starting to open up. Give it a decade. A pristine Xbox original will be worth a fortune.

 

[Lngjohnsilver1]

wow - hit a nerve OP well done!!

I think its GREAT that there are some self agrandising PC players who hate consoles - its means i wont bump into them in the black. I fear i might not get past their heads in the mailslots!

'Everything else is rubbish expect PC's and everyone else but PC users are dumb!'

Gosh that's a salient well rounded argument i can't possibly refute. I shall return to my hovel oh master of wisdom - NOT!

For the rest of the PC players who are sensible humans and also own a PS4 - see you in space..

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

True fans had both. I had too many of all the variants at one stage or another.

Ever see shadow of the beast on the st (shudder) . With only 16 colours and no hardware scrolling it really did suffer with some games. It did have a slightly faster cpu however so a few 3d games had a slight edge over the amiga.

I loved my amiga... ... All of them . I still play amiga games now, just this weekend i did infact, tho i have to emulate it now due to space issues

Btw horizon ZD on my ps4 pro is technically as impressive as anything i have on my pc. Sure my pc "only" has a gtx 980in it but a console is about more than just its pc equivalent specs.

 

[RamirezKurita]

Think about what you said. Now appreciate why what you said is utterly insulting.

Just no.

The comment wasn't really directed specifically at console gamers, although rereading my post I can clearly see why it might be seen that way, particularly in light of the common stereotypes regarding different platforms (although these stereotypes are getting less applicable every generation). The comment was more about marketing and how it affects development (and not just of games, it's pandemic across pretty much all products), how it can turn games from a creative vision and a pursuit of perfection and into a throwaway commodity - the common accusation of "selling out", creating a more basic yet more accessible product in the name of sales. The real issue is whether Braben himself and the other creative visionaries at FD are willing to go toe-to-toe against shareholders, their own marketing department and company profits at large in the name of creating and perfecting their vision for a perfect space sim, or whether they'll cave to pressure and alter the vision of what the game should be in the name of more sales.

It's a similar story to the development of Spore a decade ago (which is nothing to do with consoles, I guess the core issue is of casual vs serious gamers). Early alpha videos of spore showed significant depth, with the game able to understand and harness the creatures' physiologies in fully procedural ways so that your creature design becomes incredibly important to the game. However, later in development it took a sharp change in design focusand creature attributes become simplified to the point that size and location of body parts were inconsequential in an attempt to appeal to the casual market. This caused a massive backlash upon release, as casual players weren't really paying attention meanwhile the serious players who were looking forward to their massive evolution-based physiology simulator ended up disappointed.

Basically, consoles vs PC aside, I worry that the game may turn into GTA in space to chase additional sales, rather than the vision that DB has had for the last 20 years.

 

[Privata]

wow - hit a nerve OP well done!!

I think its GREAT that there are some self agrandising PC players who hate consoles - its means i wont bump into them in the black. I fear i might not get past their heads in the mailslots!

'Everything else is rubbish expect PC's and everyone else but PC users are dumb!'

Gosh that's a salient well rounded argument i can't possibly refute. I shall return to my hovel oh master of wisdom - NOT!

For the rest of the PC players who are sensible humans and also own a PS4 - see you in space..

I dont think any PC gamers hate console gamers.
We often hate console limitations and how console studios seem to treat its players like dirt.

I , still have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about deus ex 2...
It not about the console players , its about how the publishers and some devs see consoles.

That and the limited hardware. I think consoles can be good. but the current gen are going on way , way way too longe.
The PS2 lasted longer than needed , same with XB , PS3 and XB360.

Because after that point , it causes limitations and stagnation.

I dont hate console players. that would be stupid. and I dont think anyone is dumb for playing on consoles.
However I dont think there are any pros to being on console (even price) yet outside of being ignored by most studios there are near zero downsides on PC.

This is not ment to be an attack or anything.

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I presume that he is talking about actual gameplay complexity, not technical complexity. You could have all the number crunching in the world and it might be a massive technical undertaking to program it all, but would it wouldn't necessarily provide any gameplay complexity.

And even then though, he's wrong. Once you step outside overhyped shovelware made for the lowest common denominator, many well-received modern games are incredibly complex. You just have to look at things like the X3 trilogy, Civilisation games or Path of Exile, all games that offer gameplay complexity far beyond any of their predecessors from 25 years ago. The whole worry with consoles is that Elite will deviate from it's attempt to build upon the original trilogy as the greatest space sim ever and instead devolve into shovelware fit only for the most clueless of individuals.

X3 trilogy? you mean the X series.
Anyway , X3 reunion was ment to get an Xbox port. never happened , I would argue its down to hardware... but the audiance is there.
X rebirth based on rumours was ment to have one as well.

I could be wrong but I think sims and civ are on console at least in part.

games on consoles being dumbed down is not due to the audiance being stupid. its hardware limitations , with added salt due to publishers wanting games to be dumbed down because they think that gamers are dumb (simplification of the truth of course)

 

[Deleted member 110222]

I dont think any PC gamers hate console gamers.
We often hate console limitations and how console studios seem to treat its players like dirt.

I , still have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about deus ex 2...
It not about the console players , its about how the publishers and some devs see consoles.

That and the limited hardware. I think consoles can be good. but the current gen are going on way , way way too longe.
The PS2 lasted longer than needed , same with XB , PS3 and XB360.

Because after that point , it causes limitations and stagnation.

I dont hate console players. that would be stupid. and I dont think anyone is dumb for playing on consoles.
However I dont think there are any pros to being on console (even price) yet outside of being ignored by most studios there are near zero downsides on PC.

This is not ment to be an attack or anything.

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X3 trilogy? you mean the X series.
Anyway , X3 reunion was ment to get an Xbox port. never happened , I would argue its down to hardware... but the audiance is there.
X rebirth based on rumours was ment to have one as well.

I could be wrong but I think sims and civ are on console at least in part.

games on consoles being dumbed down is not due to the audiance being stupid. its hardware limitations , with added salt due to publishers wanting games to be dumbed down because they think that gamers are dumb (simplification of the truth of course)

I'm sorry, but price is absolutely a factor.

 

[Old Duck]

Exhibit A:

I agree , console gamers are not my enemy. However the under-powered , outdated consoles hardware is.

Exhibit B:

However the downgrade in visuals , and gameplay (mostly linked to challenging content) has been around way before the Xbox version of the game. whenever someone has a performance issue , instead of adding new settings everyone gets a downgrade.

You admit that the downgrading predates the consoles, so how can you blame the consoles? I think it's fair to blame FDev if they are taking shortcuts to make their lives easier at the expense of people who invested in a better game (updates should never downgrade a paid product). This "if" seems to be debated by representatives from FDev, and I don't have the personal experience with the product to pick sides.

I'm still perplexed by the notion that Frontier would throw away high-quality models that they've already spent time to build and replace them with low-quality models and assets. It really is trivial to provide multiple assets and configurations so that the game runs well on lower hardware while also taking advantage of better hardware. They've had to have been doing something like this all along so that ED runs on both minimum spec PCs (which fall below the consoles in capability) and also on the higher end PCs.

 

[Privata]

I'm sorry, but price is absolutely a factor.

What I ment by that is , you can get a PC as powerfull as a console for the same price.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

What I ment by that is , you can get a PC as powerfull as a console for the same price.

Not necessarily. Most people I know bought second hand Xbox's.

 

[The Chairmaker]

The consoles arent the most powerful of kit, but the PC master race brigade tend to be the one percenters who run 1080tis with 7700ks and 32 gig of ram. They dont realise they do not represent the mass of PC users who on the whole are playing on kit at less than or equivalent to the current consoles.

The steam survey is a useful guide for this.
The most popular cpu speed is between 2.3 and 2.7 GHZ.
Only around five percent of the player base, play at a resolution above 1080p, whereas over thirty percent play on a resolution of 1366 x 768 or less.
Forty one percent have graphics cards with 1 gig or less of video ram, that figure then rises to sixty five percent that have 2 gig or less of video ram.

As you can see, if anything its the PC users that are holding things back. As there is no real demand at the PC level for graphics above 1080p. Which is fine when you consider that most people are rocking graphics cards that would not have the power to run anything above such a resolution.

 

[Privata]

Exhibit A:


Exhibit B:


You admit that the downgrading predates the consoles, so how can you blame the consoles? I think it's fair to blame FDev if they are taking shortcuts to make their lives easier at the expense of people who invested in a better game (updates should never downgrade a paid product). This "if" seems to be debated by representatives from FDev, and I don't have the personal experience with the product to pick sides.

I'm still perplexed by the notion that Frontier would throw away high-quality models that they've already spent time to build and replace them with low-quality models and assets. It really is trivial to provide multiple assets and configurations so that the game runs well on lower hardware while also taking advantage of better hardware. They've had to have been doing something like this all along so that ED runs on both minimum spec PCs (which fall below the consoles in capability) and also on the higher end PCs.

Sorry , I was not clear.
For elite , the consoles have had no impact. or if they have its been minimal. and I think they have done more good than bad in any case.

The rest was talking in genral , outside of elite.

I dont know why FD removed some high quality stuff... sometimes they make downgrades as a WIP workaround and then patch them up (like with astroid rings fog)

Of course in the case of elite , I think the issue is they want the ''ultra'' setting to be for everyone. yet for me ''ultra'' should be the ''its going to melt your PC'' option.

The bad mouthing of consoles in my text was not aimed in context to elite , but more past games. and thats why I have concerns.
But so far Elite dangerous has been the best Xbox port I have seen. (and it will be the same on PS4 I bet)

As they have yet to do anything bad. I just expect the worst when it comes to games as to never be let down

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Not necessarily. Most people I know bought second hand Xbox's.

Buying second handed is bad IMO.
It hurts the company.

I have no love for microsoft but they deserve every penny of Xbox sales , because they made it