The Console Is Not Your Enemy

This idea that the ps4/Xbox is the lowest spec that FD have to code for is a just plain wrong.
A pc game has to run well on a wide range of specs,when i play Ed on my ps4 it will be an upgrade for me.
 
X3 trilogy? you mean the X series.
Anyway , X3 reunion was ment to get an Xbox port. never happened , I would argue its down to hardware... but the audiance is there.
X rebirth based on rumours was ment to have one as well.

I could be wrong but I think sims and civ are on console at least in part.

games on consoles being dumbed down is not due to the audiance being stupid. its hardware limitations , with added salt due to publishers wanting games to be dumbed down because they think that gamers are dumb (simplification of the truth of course)

X3: Reunion, X3: Terran Conflict and X3: Albion Prelude. Yep, there's three of them, although that is only if you count Albion Prelude as a separate thing. Before that, there is obviously X (plus an expansion) and X2, as you pointed out, but I like the idea that they made a trilogy with the last entry being it's own trilogy. With regards to Reunion not being on Xbox, I can see why - the game requires huge amounts of memory and CPU power, things that older consoles lacked (I don't know why it took so long for hardware developers to realise that RAM is quite useful!). I do wonder whether the game could have been made to run on the 360 though, it's lifespan as a product (including TC and AP) was certainly long enough for it to go through, but the question is: would it have sold well enough to warrant the cost of porting?

The older Civ games have actually be ported to several consoles. Granted, the ports weren't well received as they were limited by controller interfaces, but they are there. That sentence was more relating to the age of games though, not consoles vs PC, to show that games nowadays are much more complex in terms of gameplay compared to comparable games from 25 years ago. Even "simple" modern games like the Halo games are still far more complex in gameplay than the likes of Wolfenstein 3D and DooM. Similarly, compare Civ IV/V/VI to Civ 1 to see the difference in complexity, or to compare StarCraft II to Dune II: Battle for Arrakis.

Buying second handed is bad IMO.
It hurts the company.

However, the resale value of a product is an important part of it's overall value. It also encourages developers to make something that people never want to get rid of, as making a product that people will hold onto until the end of their days is the best way to kill off the second hand market, while creating an essentially disposable product just means that it'll end up on a second-hand shelf by Monday after being released on Friday.
 
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Deleted member 110222

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Sorry , I was not clear.
For elite , the consoles have had no impact. or if they have its been minimal. and I think they have done more good than bad in any case.

The rest was talking in genral , outside of elite.

I dont know why FD removed some high quality stuff... sometimes they make downgrades as a WIP workaround and then patch them up (like with astroid rings fog)

Of course in the case of elite , I think the issue is they want the ''ultra'' setting to be for everyone. yet for me ''ultra'' should be the ''its going to melt your PC'' option.

The bad mouthing of consoles in my text was not aimed in context to elite , but more past games. and thats why I have concerns.
But so far Elite dangerous has been the best Xbox port I have seen. (and it will be the same on PS4 I bet)

As they have yet to do anything bad. I just expect the worst when it comes to games as to never be let down

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Buying second handed is bad IMO.
It hurts the company.

I have no love for microsoft but they deserve every penny of Xbox sales , because they made it

Bad or not, law says second hand is okay. Don't agree with it? Fine, pay the premium.

However that won't stop the market, which is much needed for the less affluent in society.

Or do you dare suggest an individual with a low-pay job isn't allowed a bit of entertainment at a cut-price, thanks to a system becoming available after someone else is finished with it?
 
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The consoles arent the most powerful of kit, but the PC master race brigade tend to be the one percenters who run 1080tis with 7700ks and 32 gig of ram. They dont realise they do not represent the mass of PC users who on the whole are playing on kit at less than or equivalent to the current consoles.

The steam survey is a useful guide for this.
The most popular cpu speed is between 2.3 and 2.7 GHZ.
Only around five percent of the player base, play at a resolution above 1080p, whereas over thirty percent play on a resolution of 1366 x 768 or less.
Forty one percent have graphics cards with 1 gig or less of video ram, that figure then rises to sixty five percent that have 2 gig or less of video ram.

As you can see, if anything its the PC users that are holding things back. As there is no real demand at the PC level for graphics above 1080p. Which is fine when you consider that most people are rocking graphics cards that would not have the power to run anything above such a resolution.
I dont think low end PC users are holding games back.
Because the ''ultra'' setting to most games are just what the console has but with higher resolution or better postFX.

The issue PC gamers have is that games could have source textures , they could have dev-kits with them , they could have high player count , they could have better options... but they dont.

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Bad or not, law says second hand is okay. Don't agree with it? Fine, pay the premium.

However that won't stop the market, which is much needed for the less affluent in society.

Or do you dare suggest an individual with a low-pay job isn't allowed a bit of entertainment at a cut-price, thanks to a system becoming available after someone else is finished with it?
Oh , I dont want to stop anyone.
Its just my opinion. I dont actualy think its the end of the word. just a bit of a potential issue when it comes to dev teams (but thats another story)
 

Deleted member 110222

D
I dont think low end PC users are holding games back.
Because the ''ultra'' setting to most games are just what the console has but with higher resolution or better postFX.

The issue PC gamers have is that games could have source textures , they could have dev-kits with them , they could have high player count , they could have better options... but they dont.

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Oh , I dont want to stop anyone.
Its just my opinion. I dont actualy think its the end of the word. just a bit of a potential issue when it comes to dev teams (but thats another story)

Fair enough. I'll stand down. Just understand I have encountered people who have quite literally said the poor deserve nothing.

I have no shame in defending the rights of the less well off.
 
X3: Reunion, X3: Terran Conflict and X3: Albion Prelude. Yep, there's three of them, although that is only if you count Albion Prelude as a separate thing. Before that, there is obviously X (plus an expansion) and X2, as you pointed out, but I like the idea that they made a trilogy with the last entry being it's own trilogy. With regards to Reunion not being on Xbox, I can see why - the game requires huge amounts of memory and CPU power, things that older consoles lacked (I don't know why it took so long for hardware developers to realise that RAM is quite useful!). I do wonder whether the game could have been made to run on the 360 though, it's lifespan as a product (including TC and AP) was certainly long enough for it to go through, but the question is: would it have sold well enough to warrant the cost of porting?

The older Civ games have actually be ported to several consoles. Granted, the ports weren't well received as they were limited by controller interfaces, but they are there. That sentence was more relating to the age of games though, not consoles vs PC, to show that games nowadays are much more complex in terms of gameplay compared to comparable games from 25 years ago. Even "simple" modern games like the Halo games are still far more complex in gameplay than the likes of Wolfenstein 3D and DooM. Similarly, compare Civ IV/V/VI to Civ 1 to see the difference in complexity, or to compare StarCraft II to Dune II: Battle for Arrakis.
I agree , games on PC are better.
The input method on PC is better.
The freedom on PC is better

But I still think that the audiance on console is not dumb. and I think they would like it if for once they got a game with all the depth in it.

My logic is ''if it runs , sell it , no exclusives''
Just sell keyboard and mouses on consoles.

I play on PC , I dont like consoles but those who play on them are not stupid.

If a game is not on console for hardware reasons , its fine. but if its because they think the audiance is stupid , then to me thats just wrong

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Fair enough. I'll stand down. Just understand I have encountered people who have quite literally said the poor deserve nothing.

I have no shame in defending the rights of the less well off.
I did not even think of that... thats actualy very shamefull of me.

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This idea that the ps4/Xbox is the lowest spec that FD have to code for is a just plain wrong.
A pc game has to run well on a wide range of specs,when i play Ed on my ps4 it will be an upgrade for me.
100% true.
Its just that in the early days FD mentioned support for very high end users.
They said everything would be in the settings so you could go beyond the default settings... but well making games is hard and that fell to the side. understandable , yet upsetting
 
As does believing it isn't true, doesn't make it a conspiracy eh? ;) :p

Kerrash the type of guy to believe every piece of PR that he reads. :D :p

I included the smilies to show that I, too, can put smilies at the end of a patronizing sentence to alleviate the patronizy bit of the sentence.

The point is that you shouldn't just believe every piece of information that you read, especially if it comes from businesses. They are in fact businesses and their main goal is to make money. There is no good outcome if a game dev company just says, "Hey, we have to downgrade one platform to achieve parity with the other platforms." That's just simple business at the end of the day. You're free to believe whatever you want, obviously, but jeez.

Edit: I am no way stating which side I fall on the ED console/pc argument of this thread. Just wanted to state that just because someone says they aren't doing something shady doesn't make it true.
 
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The steam survey is a useful guide for this.
The most popular cpu speed is between 2.3 and 2.7 GHZ.
Only around five percent of the player base, play at a resolution above 1080p, whereas over thirty percent play on a resolution of 1366 x 768 or less.
Forty one percent have graphics cards with 1 gig or less of video ram, that figure then rises to sixty five percent that have 2 gig or less of video ram.

Can it run Crysis?

My PC is getting pretty old, still running a i7 920 @3,2 GHz and a GTX 970, and that looks to be alot better than what steam survey shows.
 
What I ment by that is , you can get a PC as powerfull as a console for the same price.

I have to disagree here. I'd be lucky to get a cheap Chromebook running on an Atom processor for the $250 USD that I paid for my PS4, which included the amazing Uncharted 4 game. Even if I built my own PC via NewEgg, I doubt I'd match the price when all is said and done (especially once OS is thrown in).

The other thing you need to consider is that consoles are customized both on the hardware and software level, which means well-written games will run better on a console than a PC with equal specs. Well, caveat, I'm speaking about the PS4 which I'm highly familiar with (can't really make this claim for Xbox).

There are many reasons I left the PC gaming scene behind to become a console gamer, and a big one was price. I'd be happy to share those reasons, but I fear it might cross the line set by our moderators.
 
I agree , console gamers are not my enemy.

However the under-powered , outdated consoles hardware is.
The game looked better in the early days. and we keep getting minor graphical downgrades here and there.


FD by no means is aiming to downgrade the PC version , but I bet that if FD had an idea that could work , but not on the consoles hardware they would scrap it instead of having it be only on platforms that support it.


However the downgrade in visuals , and gameplay (mostly linked to challenging content) has been around way before the Xbox version of the game. whenever someone has a performance issue , instead of adding new settings everyone gets a downgrade.

Even if its not on purpose whenever they make something today they have to think ''would it work on console?'' so instead of making a great model and then making it work on console they might make it work on console first and then just give us that model.

That. Bold RED, That's a FACT.
 
I really don't see why the PC version of the game would even need to be downgraded to get it working on consoles. I heard recently that consoles were holding back planetary landings because consoles couldn't handle the cloud particle effects. So just make it look bad on the console? That's what everybody else does.

I do understand that there's convenience in creating a unified product so it ports more easily to other platforms, but graphical limitations are the easiest of those to work around.
 
I really don't see why the PC version of the game would even need to be downgraded to get it working on consoles. I heard recently that consoles were holding back planetary landings because consoles couldn't handle the cloud particle effects. So just make it look bad on the console? That's what everybody else does.

I do understand that there's convenience in creating a unified product so it ports more easily to other platforms, but graphical limitations are the easiest of those to work around.
I dont think the console version is holding that back... that sounds like reddit.

A while back , before the alpha (I think) they showed us a small vid showing off cloud tech.
Its something that could be done on consoles.

Its important to note they could reduce the samples or make them less if that was the case on consoles.

In fact a few games have had volumetric fog recently , I dont know if they had it on the console versions but I think they did.

I would not worry about stuff like that holding anyone back.
 
I agree , games on PC are better.
The input method on PC is better.
The freedom on PC is better

But I still think that the audiance on console is not dumb. and I think they would like it if for once they got a game with all the depth in it.

My logic is ''if it runs , sell it , no exclusives''
Just sell keyboard and mouses on consoles.

I play on PC , I dont like consoles but those who play on them are not stupid.

If a game is not on console for hardware reasons , its fine. but if its because they think the audiance is stupid , then to me thats just wrong

The hardware issue shouldn't be a real issue with sufficient LoD scaling. As people have pointed out, the minimum specs for PCs are actually pretty low, and there's no real reason why they can't take consoles as the "minimum" detail settings and ramp everything up for PCs in the detail settings. I guess the worry here amongst players is that "can" does not necessarily mean "will"; will they continue to offer massively increased detail options for PCs despite the additional development resources required to produce high-detail assets for PC users? CPU and RAM issues should be fairly minor for ED as the part that is really CPU intensive - the BGS - is all done remotely. It's not like the game has to accurately simulate or calculate much, particularly compared to a lot of games, and textured can be downscaled through appropriate LoDing. If the game's development truly does continue for 10+ years of development, they could even port it to the eventual next generation consoles - identical game but just using high detail presets taken from the PC version.

I think most of my complaints regarding the stereotypes about gamers on different platforms (which, for me, is more of a divide between hardcore gamers and casual gamers rather than relating to platforms) involve a healthy dose of hyperbole, which isn't really reflective of reality but unfortunately is all-too-often taken as gospel by publishers and marketing teams. So let's run with this hypothetical scenario:

Imagine the worst player. They are the most impatient, the most obnoxious, the most intolerant, the most hateful and the most self-entitled gamer ever to terrorise the planet, let alone whatever online servers he is on in a given moment (note that I never said "unskilled", while the worst player may perform poorly and blame it on the game, that is not necessarily the case). Obviously, they can't be representative of any group of players as they are literally, by definition, the worst (or worse) of whatever group you could ever consider. We shall call this caricature That Guy. Now, imagine that there's a high-level boardroom meeting with David Braben, Sandro, a couple of other important Devs, a few major shareholders for the company and some of the marketing execs and they sit down to discuss the future of Elite: Dangerous. It all goes well as they discuss business matters, until the marketing execs bring up a lecture slide about how to break into potential new markets with the game by stripping down content and long term plans to make the game more accessible - a lecture slide that contains a picture of That Guy as perfect example of a new potential market that they could expand into. After all, if it's the sort of game that That Guy would buy and play, surely anyone would consider buying it? More importantly for us, any game developed specifically to cater to That Guy, would we want to play and love it?

Again, healthy dose of hyperbole there, but it is the logical conclusion of what can occur if publishers and marketing teams demand the developers pursue sales at the expense of the quality of the game. I'm not afraid of the game being ported to consoles for console players and that'll somehow bring about the apocalypse, I'm worried that the marketing teams will go mad from the intoxicating taste of a new market and try to expand the market for the game further by altering the course of development rather than by simply breaking hardware barriers through ports.
 
@Ramirez - interesting but fallacious logic.

You do not market your material at That Guy. You market your product at 80% of your market - which is highly unlikely to be That Guy. That Guy is at best (worst?) 10% of your possible market.

You would be better to ask what is the 80% demographic of the PC market vs the 80% of the console market? I suspect there are some telling statistics in there about age, sex, income, attention span, preferred game mechanics etc.

In terms of gameplay vs controls - yes absolutely true there has been a large historic division between what is achievable on PC vs Console because of the UI - but that does not PROVE that a console game is less complex just because the UI is different. It is simply a hardware issue that developers need to work around. Complex textual or keyboard interfaces DO NOT guarantee a better game! Trust me i have played some rubbish on PC AND Console that had nothing to with UI limitations on either side. I think developers, especially now, are demanding and making games for console that require 'more complex' interfaces and technology is catching up to allow this to happen - eye tracking, controller tracking, controller key inputs, HOTAS etc. etc.

I think everything else is largely technical argument best had between PC users and FDev which has apparently already been answered elsewhere - they aren't compromising to bring on board consoles - they are modifying the system for other reasons - speed of instancing changes etc.
 
@Ramirez - interesting but fallacious logic.

You do not market your material at That Guy. You market your product at 80% of your market - which is highly unlikely to be That Guy. That Guy is at best (worst?) 10% of your possible market.

You would be better to ask what is the 80% demographic of the PC market vs the 80% of the console market? I suspect there are some telling statistics in there about age, sex, income, attention span, preferred game mechanics etc.

In terms of gameplay vs controls - yes absolutely true there has been a large historic division between what is achievable on PC vs Console because of the UI - but that does not PROVE that a console game is less complex just because the UI is different. It is simply a hardware issue that developers need to work around. Complex textual or keyboard interfaces DO NOT guarantee a better game! Trust me i have played some rubbish on PC AND Console that had nothing to with UI limitations on either side. I think developers, especially now, are demanding and making games for console that require 'more complex' interfaces and technology is catching up to allow this to happen - eye tracking, controller tracking, controller key inputs, HOTAS etc. etc.

I think everything else is largely technical argument best had between PC users and FDev which has apparently already been answered elsewhere - they aren't compromising to bring on board consoles - they are modifying the system for other reasons - speed of instancing changes etc.

While not the main target 10% extra profit is always on sight. If they can they will.

Yes i don't really care about all those flaws of hardware (graphics) at all, this is all in my opinion. But controller X Keyboard is a true reality. Elite is already complex on a Xbox controller, and this limits new functionality to be added to the game, FACT! Controller is taken into consideration while creating new stuff, FACT. If something is not possible , or very bad when done in the control probably be sketched, FACT.

For example we cant have sub targeting on the new multi crewed turret I wonder why is that... maybe because you couldn't use the left panel to target subsystem on the controller?! (i don't think controler dont have a hotkey for subtarget) Mystery...
 
While not the main target 10% extra profit is always on sight. If they can they will.

Yes i don't really care about all those flaws of hardware (graphics) at all, this is all in my opinion. But controller X Keyboard is a true reality. Elite is already complex on a Xbox controller, and this limits new functionality to be added to the game, FACT! Controller is taken into consideration while creating new stuff, FACT. If something is not possible , or very bad when done in the control probably be sketched, FACT.

For example we cant have sub targeting on the new multi crewed turret I wonder why is that... maybe because you couldn't use the left panel to target subsystem on the controller?! (i don't think controler dont have a hotkey for subtarget) Mystery...

Mate, you can't say 'probably' and then say 'FACT'. That's not how facts work.
 
So let's run with this hypothetical scenario: Imagine the worst player. They are the most impatient, the most obnoxious, the most intolerant, the most hateful and the most self-entitled gamer ever to terrorise the planet, let alone whatever online servers he is on in a given moment (note that I never said "unskilled", while the worst player may perform poorly and blame it on the game, that is not necessarily the case). Obviously, they can't be representative of any group of players as they are literally, by definition, the worst (or worse) of whatever group you could ever consider. We shall call this caricature That Guy. Now, imagine that there's a high-level boardroom meeting with David Braben, Sandro, a couple of other important Devs, a few major shareholders for the company and some of the marketing execs and they sit down to discuss the future of Elite: Dangerous. It all goes well as they discuss business matters, until the marketing execs bring up a lecture slide about how to break into potential new markets with the game by stripping down content and long term plans to make the game more accessible - a lecture slide that contains a picture of That Guy as perfect example of a new potential market that they could expand into. After all, if it's the sort of game that That Guy would buy and play, surely anyone would consider buying it? More importantly for us, any game developed specifically to cater to That Guy, would we want to play and love it?

Again, healthy dose of hyperbole there, but it is the logical conclusion of what can occur if publishers and marketing teams demand the developers pursue sales at the expense of the quality of the game.
Yeah, they did that, and we got Telepresence.
 

stormyuk

Volunteer Moderator
Btw horizon ZD on my ps4 pro is technically as impressive as anything i have on my pc. Sure my pc "only" has a gtx 980in it but a console is about more than just its pc equivalent specs.

Yes, Horizon Zero Dawn is technically very impressive, its even a good game with a good narrative. It shows what even lowly PS4 hardware is capable of.

Yeah, they did that, and we got Telepresence.

Yeh and the console forums were full of posts begging for Telepresence right? Wrong.
 
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Truth be told, I pretty much stopped looking at graphics quality somewhere around the PS3 era.

If you're counting pixels then you're doing it wrong. IMHO, obviously.
 
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