The core gameplay is boring

[dxm55]

Personally, the games that I find interesting or exciting to play have always been those which involved conflict in some measure. Either against an AI or human opponent. Though I would argue that human opponents always provide for the more interesting gameplay.

Building and exploration games can only go so far before the tedium of repeating the same old process over and over again. Games like these usually have a standard formula, even if it isn't apparent at the beginning. You'll either figure out the SOP that's provided in the game menu, or you'll find one from emergent gameplay. But ultimately, there will be an SOP or 'best practice' style that you will adapt and adopt and repeat it until you tire of the game. Civilization, SimCity (all its incarnations), Tycoon games, All the space 4X games, they end up the same when you play against the environment.

But once conflict comes into the picture, everything changes. When besides building, there is also the possibility of defending what you have built, and the chance to fail at it, and losing it, and having to rebuild it in a different way... that's when things get interesting.



Maybe what the game needs is for two of the factions to break out into all out war. All the border systems would be affected, and turned into lawless zones. Anybody, AI or Players in those systems would be marked lawless and can either pick a side in power play, or even choose to represent the faction by declaring him/herself a citizen, or be a mercenary, or just be wanting to be caught in the crossfire for the challenge. Powerplayers and PVP players could flock there for their dose of action, and to attempt to flip the system at the same time. Allow players to conflict and change the borders through their actions.

For the rest of the contented players, they could stay back in the core systems, and/or away from the conflicting systems to carry on their game of trade or exploration.

 

[CTCParadox]

This game would be a lot more engaging if your actions had an impact on the world.
As much as I love using my imagination when playing D&D, Elite clearly shows you that you have no impact.
Those ships you kill just keep coming forever. Those turrets you nuked? Back in 5 minutes.
Sure a few numbers change in the BGS, but that's it.

If I played in a D&D campaign like that the DM would be out the door after the first session.
It's a testament to how the fun flight model is that I keep putting hours in (currently on a break to play Pillars of Eternity though. Walls of text, I love it).

CMDR CTCParadox

 

[dxm55]

This game would be a lot more engaging if your actions had an impact on the world.
As much as I love using my imagination when playing D&D, Elite clearly shows you that you have no impact.
Those ships you kill just keep coming forever. Those turrets you nuked? Back in 5 minutes.
Sure a few numbers change in the BGS, but that's it.

If I played in a D&D campaign like that the DM would be out the door after the first session.
It's a testament to how the fun flight model is that I keep putting hours in (currently on a break to play Pillars of Eternity though. Walls of text, I love it).

CMDR CTCParadox

Unfortunately, part of the playerbase at least, would be against you or any group of players "making an impact". Some players want to follow scripted stories. Some players are just happy to play a farming game. Not everyone wants to make an impact, or have another player or group's impact affect their game.


That's why I feel that war and territorial control (for the faction, not a player or group) could spice things up for some players. When there is conflict, when the set pieces keep changing, with territory changing hands through players actions, that's when you feel that what you did actually meant something.

 

[CTCParadox]

Unfortunately, part of the playerbase at least, would be against you or any group of players "making an impact". Some players want to follow scripted stories. Some players are just happy to play a farming game. Not everyone wants to make an impact, or have another player or group's impact affect their game.


That's why I feel that war and territorial control (for the faction, not a player or group) could spice things up for some players. When there is conflict, when the set pieces keep changing, with territory changing hands through players actions, that's when you feel that what you did actually meant something.

True, basically a lot of the people happy with the current gameplay are probably quite comfortable. The RES grind, the trade grind, exploring, nothing threatens your gameplay, nothing is unpredictable. Only other players can interrupt making your numbers bigger.

CMDR CTCParadox

 

[kilvenny]

The longer you play any game the more you understand it and the clearer the underlying mechanics become. As you level up or in Elite terms upgrade to the best ships, you remove progressively more risk and uncertainty.

I also think the way one approaches a game changes the way in which we view mechanics.

Take exploring my personal view is there should be more complex stuff around the scanning. I think the galaxy map should only show systems you can jump to, have visited or have intelligence for. However if your exploring outlook is the visuals then you would be happier with the current implementation.

Trading I think is a nightmare for FD. The whole premise of finding routes has been removed by the third party tools. Even if FD introduced some sort of manufacturing/conversion mechanism it would quickly be min/maxed by the third party tools.

Players need to be given reasons to go back to the smaller ships. I would be looking at stations with smaller openings and creating things to do that are profitable but need the small ships.

 

[sbdags]

You just lost the argument. Mirite?



A game doesn't have to have depth to be enjoyable, which is evidenced by the fact that you enjoy Elite Dangerous, since it has little depth. DOOM doesn't have any depth but is an enjoyable game to some. In all fairness, I suspect combat has gotten a bit of depth, if they did actually fix shield cells and powerplant sniping, since it opens up more viable options for combat than "beefy shields and lasers", although they still need to fix missiles. Every other aspect is either broken or shallow as all be damned though.

But for the record, I *have* experienced everything. Because when you've gone into the black, doing it again is only an aesthetic experience. Trading is still a cr/h youtube vomit fest. Mining may have become less tedious somehow, and if it did I might pick it up again, but it's not deep by any means. Pirating is broken. Smuggling is basically easy mode delivery service. And what are the rewards for all this? Credits and more credits. Woooooo.

When I was a young boy all I wanted to be was an Astronaut. I wanted to pilot spaceships, fly to other worlds, discover new solar systems. I was obsessed with space and all things about the universe. That dream never came true but I did achieve a degree in astro-physics, with my major dissertation on supernovae and black holes.

That is a true story.

Flying in Elite is my dream come true and no other game offers me the wonders of space travel like Elite does. I get to see those sights I dreamed of as a boy. And on top of that I have a reason to exist in that galaxy, fighting, smuggling, trading, mining, exploring, meeting new people, winging up, travelling to far off places. No other game can offer that depth.

That is my depth.

Thankfully FD created it so I could enjoy it.

 

[Pluvialis]

This:

http://www.elitedangerous-station.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/elite-dangerous-015.jpg

and this:

http://www.mmorpg-center.com/wp-content/gallery/elite-dangerous/elite-dangerous-image9.jpg


would be a start.

Whatever game those screenshots came from*, sign me up - I want to play it!

(* Yes, I know. I was being rhetorical. )

 

[Tanith Low]

Posts like this amuse me. If you find the core gameplay boring why are you playing the game?

I'm not saying you have to enjoy it, or that you are wrong to find the gameplay dull. Different strokes for different folks right? I myself have many games in my library that failed to engage me and my solution to this was to stop playing them. What I didn't do was keep playing them and then go to a forum aimed at people who do enjoy the game and complain about it.

 

[InMemoriamSirocco]

I find threads such as this boring. All they do is complain, but do they offer solutions? Does anybody talk about possible improvements? Nope, just whining and moaning. Obsidian Ant, on the other hand, makes a video about Elite Dangerous gameplay and doesn't whince, does not cry, just analyzes the situation from all angles and offers a set of ideas on how to make gameplay more compelling. That's constructive criticism.

This thread should be titled "How to improve gameplay". Then I would gladly read it.

Just a bit of constructive criticism from me.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The core of Diablo is just to kill monsters over and over again, collect items and level up so you can simply repeat it all over again.
The core of angry birds is to fling your birds at stuff over and over again in slightly different ways.
The core of Counterstrike is just to pew-pew at other players over and over again.

And yet, each is (or was) a seriously addictive game that is/was very popular.

Most games at their core are fairly basic and repetitive.

At least with ED you are not fixed into doing a single type of task repetitively. You are free to chop and change as much as you like, and when that gets a little tiring, you can always go and do some pew-pew in CQC if that is your thing.

 

[smiths121]

Interesting point by the OP.

I agree with some observers views, there could be more depth and variety to each base mechanic. I remember the mining proposal in DDF referenced in this thread, the premise was skill based. At the moment, with the possible exception of flying and combat most activities do not distinguish between the highly skilled and the "dabbler" particularly well. If we take the mining example - I have done a few hours mining, I like the change of pace, and the variety. For example compare mining in a Haz site with 2 x escorts in a wing with mining by yourself in a safer part of the belt - 2 very different experiences. The act of mining though is barebones and not skill based.

I do not agree the actions have no impact.

I would state the impact is over a long period of time, so is not obvious and certainly not immediate. Someone mentioned the pirates keep coming back. At the real space instance this is true in combat zones and res sites for example. Very early on the spawn rates were incredibly low, so once you cleared a res site you moved onto another rather than hanging around farming Pythons. if the scenarios went back to this I think a lot of "bounty hunters" would be up in arms. Very early on (1.0 before 1.02) player trading had far more affect on pricing. Following an Python into a station was a sure sign the buying price was going to be low. People did not like this immediate feedback.

There are changes in a system over time, outside of "real space set pieces", the relative strength of the factions actually dictates the number of pirates in SC more than the security rating of the system (this controls system authority). We took control of a system called Raidar last May. At the time the pirate faction (unfettered, anarchy etc.) had a relatively high influence (around the 15-20% mark). After another month or so our activities pushed the pirate faction below 5%, and the number of pirates in SC became very low, as other factions fell below 10% the make up of the pirates changed - we made the low end "outland" style extraction system civilised.

It is quicker to do things in the BGS now compared to last May, but it takes a lot of player actions to alter more than just numbers in the BGS. For players that do not have "favourite" systems or home worlds, it is hard for them to see any difference even when BGS changes occur - so-and-so runs station X now, does not change the prices or missions, or the pirates in the res site.

Something that is not noticed has no value. I am not sure what FD can do to give noticeable feedback to actions, as we are just small specs of dust in the universe. The obvious one, clearing out res sites and not repopulating after a super hero farmer has been in the res site for 5 hours is just going to annoy a large minority of the community. I am no even going to suggest tweaking the trading action value back to 1.0 days.


Simon

 

[CTCParadox]

Something that is not noticed has no value. I am not sure what FD can do to give noticeable feedback to actions, as we are just small specs of dust in the universe. The obvious one, clearing out res sites and not repopulating after a super hero farmer has been in the res site for 5 hours is just going to annoy a large minority of the community. I am no even going to suggest tweaking the trading action value back to 1.0 days.

Indeed, most of the changes occur on the kind of "meta" BGS level. Nothing changes in real space outside the cockpit.
Even without real changes like clearing a RES or CZ, you could have NPCs make comments about your efforts to clear the system, make pirates fear your name and flee, have fireworks around stations when a war is won.

CMDR CTCParadox

 

[rootsrat]

And every one of them with no depth... The Imp got assassinated, personally I was in rage mode (there isn't many others to be fair) someone had to answer, if we find out its a Fed backed plot it will be WAR! Even if it was a outsider with Feds funding it (CIA in middleeast anyone? ? it will be all out war! - outcome??? Some bad gang did it, here have a hug!
The rest on the list are the same bar barneys, but its a cert that will end badly or some totally dumb outcome! (They aren't thargs, they are giant worm fossils from .err... the moon!

Lord of the Rings - just a little guy that takes a piece of jewellery to a mountain and a bad guy tries to stop him. No depth.
Space Odyssey - just a bunch of monkeys praying to a stone and a couple of guys going in a space ship to Jupiter.
Ubik - just a story about stuff that falls apart. No depth.
Mass Effect - just a game about a bloke that saves the world. No depth.

Your fault, not Frintier's. There was/is depth to Elite storylines, maybe you just couldn't find it?

No offense intended. Glad you are enjoying your crew's fantasy. Because that is what it is. A bunch of guys pretending. But some of us don't have the time or imagination to make up a bunch of stuff like that. Its a casual night of playing where I want to engage in some meaningful fight or missions or "event".

Its sort of like when I play DCS or ARMA and some people take it so serious that they think its real life. They need to act like they are in the military and you have to behave and follow orders and all that .... and nobody seems to remember its just a game.

Its just a game. I'd like the sandbox to have some form of interaction with me instead of me just pretending like I'm a 12 year old. I'm not asking for massive amounts of content just something more than nothing.. which is what we have for content.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



Also my quote said "Engage the person's emotions and make them feel like they are part of the story. Not detached and meaningless."

Elite Dangerous DOES NOT do this. YOU Do this on your own. You are making it all up as you go. That is the point. The game doesn't do it. YOU HAVE TO. Every other game out there has some form of tool or something to aid you or provide it.

DCS has a mission editor and it has missions and campaigns. Arma has Zeus and a whole slew of tools. What does ED have?

But Elite was always that kind of game. It gave you little hints, some tools and the story had to be made up by yourself. I'd even say it's the ESSENCE of this game, and it's every previous iteration. I don't know if you've played the previous games, but if you have - why were you expecting anything else in this iteration? If you haven't - well, I'm sorry Elite hasn't turned up what you were hoping for

 

[CTCParadox]

But Elite was always that kind of game. It gave you little hints, some tools and the story had to be made up by yourself. I'd even say it's the ESSENCE of this game, and it's every previous iteration. I don't know if you've played the previous games, but if you have - why were you expecting anything else in this iteration? If you haven't - well, I'm sorry Elite hasn't turned up what you were hoping for

I tried writing commander logs for a while. Roleplaying my commander's motivation and thinking and all that. I didn't last long.
"Log Entry #245 Killed a thousand pirates in an ring and cashed bounties".
"Log Entry #246 Killed a thousand pirates in an ring and cashed bounties".
Actually I switched to Cubeo so now it looks like
"Log Entry #278 Killed 4 generators and some skimmers and cashed in missions".
"Log Entry #279 Killed 4 generators and some skimmers and cashed in missions".

I mean if I play with no regard for making credits it's more interesting, but if you actually want to make cash it ends up looking like above.

CMDR CTCParadox

 

[Muetdhiver]

I will go as far as saying the having easy to learn / short loops mechanics is a requirement of a good game.

Then to have a great game one needs : simple interactions of the base mechanics (as in easy to understand / learn) leading to complex gameplay (usually labeled as "depth").
Think Civ games : base mechanics are simple, and some are optional for a beginner. (moving unit : simple, attacking : simple, building a city : simple). Yet the way all these simple
mechanics interact lead to rich gameplay.

• In elite most of the mechanics are short loops, but not always easy to learn (mainly due to confusing/obfuscated information, but things are getting better).
• The crunchy bits are in the piloting gameplay (hard to learn at first, many controls). Having crunchy/hard to learn mechanics is good so long as the crunchyness stays concentrated in one gameplay mechanic. (otherwise you have a mess of a game and confused players that will drop out of it fast). Having a crunchy piloting gameplay is required to have a great space flight sim.
• The part where elite is really lacking (and so, falls short in the good / great game gap) is in the interaction between the different non-flight game mechanics. This lack of game mechanics interactions leads to the "collection of minigames"/themepark feel of elite.

In short, elite is a great space flight sim with ok/good gameplay. People with an interest mainly centered on the flight sim part are happy as is.
Others that would have more of an interest in the adventure/RPG part of the game could feel that it is falling short. (but it has great potential, or in other words : not there yet)

 

[InMemoriamSirocco]

A mission editor for players to design missions, complete with mission text and (reasonable) rewards attached, would indeed be a great idea! I would love to design some missions, given the right tools and an easy-to-use interface for it.

The game is lacking some missions with a compelling cause behind them. So far we only get those via community goals.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

Fold

In your opinion the above may well be true. I'm sure that some very good points have been raised but I didn't ave the time to read them, sorry but I will say this to the OP...

I, like many others here, work long hard hours and when we get home it's nice to have at least one game that is not an action packed FX spectacular game that lasts for 20 hours before becoming another dust collector or space hog.

You want simple mechanics? Call of Duty & GTA V role of the tongue without thinking... Two of the biggest franchises in the industry but when you break them down to game mechanics they are both the most shallow games ever created - Maybe the industry understand peoples desire for simple things in life...

You want a complex game? Come and be my accountant!

 

[dxm55]

The game needs a major player involved event that changes the territorial/political landscape fast, other than through that tediously slow BGS stats.

Maybe it's time to have stations and their security force be mission targets. Or CZs AT the stations themselves, followed by a capital ship jump-in and a forceful takeover of said station or system.

Because really... all that trade/economic type of control manipulation is getting tiresome. A bit of direct action may bring some kick back into the playerbase.

 

[rootsrat]

I tried writing commander logs for a while. Roleplaying my commander's motivation and thinking and all that. I didn't last long.
"Log Entry #245 Killed a thousand pirates in an ring and cashed bounties".
"Log Entry #246 Killed a thousand pirates in an ring and cashed bounties".
Actually I switched to Cubeo so now it looks like
"Log Entry #278 Killed 4 generators and some skimmers and cashed in missions".
"Log Entry #279 Killed 4 generators and some skimmers and cashed in missions".

I mean if I play with no regard for making credits it's more interesting, but if you actually want to make cash it ends up looking like above.

CMDR CTCParadox

I disagree. Have a look at these Commander Logs: http://www.eliteandreal.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=24&sid=cac62f4128079a980c31611a257b331d

Not sure if this forum is opened to guests though.

But it could be said about every single game. I used to write my character diaries in Skyrim. They were quite descriptive, but they could look like this:

Killed 10 bandits in a bandit camp.
Killed 20 bandits in another camp.
Sold 200 gold coins worth of loot to a local vendor.
Killed 40 bandits in a camp.

Did you actually try to READ the mission descriptions?


There is another thing that all the complaining players don't seem to appreciate. Elite is at VERY EARLY stage of it's life. They are still building the basis for more complex mechanics. If you feel it lacks in so many departments you don't find it enjoyable, why do you keep playing it? Can you answer that?

It's not perfect, but if Frontier wanted to release a fully completed project, we'd have to wait another 10 years. I'd rather play what we have now and make the MOST of it, than wait another 10 years.

 

[Cynaqq]

I tried writing commander logs for a while. Roleplaying my commander's motivation and thinking and all that. I didn't last long.
"Log Entry #245 Killed a thousand pirates in an ring and cashed bounties".
"Log Entry #246 Killed a thousand pirates in an ring and cashed bounties".
Actually I switched to Cubeo so now it looks like
"Log Entry #278 Killed 4 generators and some skimmers and cashed in missions".
"Log Entry #279 Killed 4 generators and some skimmers and cashed in missions".

I mean if I play with no regard for making credits it's more interesting, but if you actually want to make cash it ends up looking like above.

CMDR CTCParadox

Aaaaah...

Sorry to point out but, you are quite bad at writing capt.'s logs apparently. A captain writes logs including his motivation, plans and purpose. Then lists the outcomes and gives a review. Also can talk about hopes from the future.

If you give a literal report of the most basic movements without assigning any purpose to them, of course you are left with a pretty boring list of same stuff. When someone asks you what you did with your day, do you answer in the most literal form possible?