The Empire Should Remember Where it Came From

I acknowledge the irony of my statement if you apply it on RL.

Most of the slaves today work either in prostitution or as workers in manufacturing/harvesting/etc. However even today slaves work much slower and much more unprecise than robots. If you consider the technological advance of 1300 years (and look at the prices of machinery and slaves in the commodities market) it should be pretty unprofitable to use slaves instead of fully automatic manufacturing lines or robots.

Almost all of the 'unregulated' slave trade that takes place in Federation space is in anarchy systems. These are systems where the Federation's rule of law goes unrecognized. When you do see slavery in systems where the law applies it typically is in the selling of slaves on black markets or via unscrupulous persons on the mission boards. Slavery in the Federation is the exception not the rule. I'm still hopeful that Frontier gets around to implementing ways for Commanders to actively oppose the slave trade at the same level that Frontier allows Commanders to participate in it.

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Not to go all politicky, but it's interesting to note that while us (mostly) westerners generally find slavery abhorrent, we help to maintain it at levels never seen before in human history. Are we so sure those numbers of unsanctioned slaves in fed space are indeed any lower?
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19831913
http://thoughtcatalog.com/daniel-hayes/2015/06/facts-about-modern-slavery/
Links are old and picked near at random but there's plenty of info out there. I only bring it up because the premise that having them be illegal in fed space doesn't mean scarce.

The continued existence of slavery in the 21st century is another compelling reason for me to oppose slavery in Elite: Dangerous.
 
Almost all of the 'unregulated' slave trade that takes place in Federation space is in anarchy systems. These are systems where the Federation's rule of law goes unrecognized. When you do see slavery in systems where the law applies it typically is in the selling of slaves on black markets or via unscrupulous persons on the mission boards. Slavery in the Federation is the exception not the rule. I'm still hopeful that Frontier gets around to implementing ways for Commanders to actively oppose the slave trade at the same level that Frontier allows Commanders to participate in it.

I can't see anything wrong with moving unemployed 'Imperial Slaves' around to a place where they can find work and pay off their depts. [yesnod]
 
Funny how it is always the case with despotic entities such like the Empire and their spokespersons empty inside of the terms and rationalize utterly deplorable and monstrous behaviour in an attempt to justify their crimes.



The more i look at this the more i like it... I think i am gonna make this my signature. [cool]

You have to admit that for the Imperials the roleplay is more engaging. They have to deal with slavery and a feudal society while our main issue is corruption.
 
Good read! One thing still bothers me about the Imp's story; If debt is seen as such a disgrace, why do they give out loans and take them on?

I mean, loans are taken for good reasons right? If I would take a loan, I consider, reconsider, calculate, recalculate and make sure a 3rd party is advising me, and lets pick in this case for instance, my dad. So say I just turned 21 in the Empire, and my dad threw me the best coming of age party evah! Still hungover from the U.H. my dad shipped in, we start talking about life choices. We come to the conclusion its time to move out, he feels threatened by my political believes and motivations. Over the coming weeks we look for places around several systems but notice that everything is to expensive, dad blew most of his money on his private stash. Now heres my crux; Thinking about getting a loan is pretty much thinking about doing slavery for some time to get a house... Who would do such a thing, really?

The only reason I can think of why people would get a loan is if something or someone is seriously threatening their life...

Just curious ;)

Anywho, RIP Independant Democracy | Henson Duval ~23rd century, Marlin Duval 4life, death to the Empire, yadayada etc.!
 
Good read! One thing still bothers me about the Imp's story; If debt is seen as such a disgrace, why do they give out loans and take them on?

You see.. because the imps don't care about anything other than having power over others and the status quo. That is why it is not that weird in the Empire to have the other senators daughter assassinated just because she had prettier nail polish than yours or send the aide to a year long trip to the deepest darkest part of the mines because he accidentally misspelled your name to a fellow Duke on introductions. A loan is just an other tool of leverage you can use to force people to do your bidding. Prime example of this is the fabulous Senator Denton Patreus with his ludicrous hairstyle.
 
I acknowledge the irony of my statement if you apply it on RL.

Most of the slaves today work either in prostitution or as workers in manufacturing/harvesting/etc. However even today slaves work much slower and much more unprecise than robots. If you consider the technological advance of 1300 years (and look at the prices of machinery and slaves in the commodities market) it should be pretty unprofitable to use slaves instead of fully automatic manufacturing lines or robots.
Yes, automation is a very interesting topic. I always go to the checkout with a person working the register at the supermarket even if there's a line (within reason) instead of the self check.

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Almost all of the 'unregulated' slave trade that takes place in Federation space is in anarchy systems. These are systems where the Federation's rule of law goes unrecognized. When you do see slavery in systems where the law applies it typically is in the selling of slaves on black markets or via unscrupulous persons on the mission boards. Slavery in the Federation is the exception not the rule. I'm still hopeful that Frontier gets around to implementing ways for Commanders to actively oppose the slave trade at the same level that Frontier allows Commanders to participate in it.

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The continued existence of slavery in the 21st century is another compelling reason for me to oppose slavery in Elite: Dangerous.
I was "poor" in elite dangerous for the longest time because I refused to take the far more lucrative slave shipping missions. Still don't, but now it's easy to earn credits without it.
 
A great summary.

Regarding Imperial Slavery though it should be noted that many of the positive citations can easily be chalked up as propaganda. Here are a few citations that often get left out of the conversation:

Aside from slavery there is plenty of evidence that the Empire is responsible for mistreating it's own citizens. Don't forget that the Emperor himself was directly responsible for the creation of the Maledict plague:

[/I]

Marlin Duval may have had a glorious vision for the Empire but that vision was quickly crushed after her untimely death:

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion! I would note that Luko is quite correct. That's part of why I cited the quote from Reclamation. Their rights were being abused, and they were seeking to have their grievances corrected. But they did note that Imperial Slaves do have rights - something that is usually not discussed.

Again, thanks for your contribution. I was hoping someone would add some counter play in this thread. It looks like I've rep'd you too recently, so I'll have to circle back later. :)

Oh, and regarding your comments in the GalNet submission thread, I agree with your sentiments on slavery. Indeed, in part, that issue (among others) has been why many Imperials fight against Archon Delaine. Archon Delaine is in large part what is wrong with Imperial Slavery. He is taking our people from what is ideally a debters working union and turning them into lifelong slaves with no protections or rights.

Anyway, I want you to know I respect the opinion you expressed in your comment in the GalNet thread, and can certainly understand it. Frankly, I'm hoping Imperial Slaves are taken off the market, and that they are re-implemented in passenger missions. We can both hope, right?
 
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*approves federally*

The problem with slavery is that, while being unregulated in federal Space, the overall number of slaves is much lower there compared to the Empire. And the core of slavery stays the same even if you add an 'imperial'. People get treated and viewn as property.

Also the comparison to signing up for the military may sound nice but remember that drafts are a thing and that the majority of people doesn't sign up voluntarily in times of war. ;)


Good point! Did Hudson mention how he's been swelling the ranks of the Federal military of late? I'm on mobile now, but check th GalNet archive that I linked a few times in the OP. If you do a bit of searching, you'll note that Hudson aimed to recruit the lower class that was on welfare, leaching off the Federal government. One of Patreus' PowerPlay quotes states something to the effect of, "The Imperial navy is the ultimate safety net - something the Federation should take note of." Well Patty, I think Hudson took note.

More seriously, thanks for your comment. I appreciate your willingness to engage in a respectful dialogue. I appreciate that we can banter about opposing viewpoints without letting the discussion get too heated.
 
Good point! Did Hudson mention how he's been swelling the ranks of the Federal military of late? I'm on mobile now, but check th GalNet archive that I linked a few times in the OP. If you do a bit of searching, you'll note that Hudson aimed to recruit the lower class that was on welfare, leaching off the Federal government. One of Patreus' PowerPlay quotes states something to the effect of, "The Imperial navy is the ultimate safety net - something the Federation should take note of." Well Patty, I think Hudson took note.

More seriously, thanks for your comment. I appreciate your willingness to engage in a respectful dialogue. I appreciate that we can banter about opposing viewpoints without letting the discussion get too heated.

Hehe, thanks :D

I have to admit I enjoy the occasional Imp-Fed propaganda trashtalk xD
 
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The Empire Should Remember Where it Came From

Yes, it should. It came from Henson Duval embracing the fact that Might Makes Right. I pity the poor fellow, and hope his soul doesn't get to see how groveling and apologetic his legacy has become. An Empire built on strength and an iron grip of power, and for what? Apologies for slavery, eulogy of social welfare, denigration of private profit, calls to act for the greater good of mankind... Whatever happened to being born privileged, thoroughly enjoying it and wanting to make sure nothing ever disrupts that order of things, shedding whatever amount of blood is required in the process because you can? Of course the peasants and slaves get a passably correct quality of life, it makes better business sense: less expenditures on disciplining/replacing them. But by Henson's bones, who cares?! The Empire forged itself as an iron fist in a Gutamaya white velvet glove, radiating beauty and power from the top, and its children these days all seem to keep arguing about the merits of the lowly plebs dental plan. Who the heck do you think you have to justify your staff's work contract to? Is that any business of theirs? Is that really what it has come to, a desperate cry for attention and recognition? Where is the art? Where is the strength? The fruits of privilege are there to be enjoyed and protected, not to be justified.

Look Empire, you used to be cool... Where did it all go wrong?
 
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A lot of citation needed in here.

Perhaps the Empire should get their slave armies to scour databanks for information sources? ;)

But I guess there are more important things on their minds at the moment, such as exploiting and eradicating entire alien species.
 
Thanks for your contribution to the discussion! I would note that Luko is quite correct. That's part of why I cited the quote from Reclamation. Their rights were being abused, and they were seeking to have their grievances corrected. But they did note that Imperial Slaves do have rights - something that is usually not discussed.

Again, thanks for your contribution. I was hoping someone would add some counter play in this thread. It looks like I've report you too recently, so I'll have to circle back later. :)

Oh, and regarding your comments in the GalNet submission thread, I agree with your sentiments on slavery. Indeed, in part, that issue (among others) has been why many Imperials fight against Archon Delaine. Archon Delaine is in large part what is wrong with Imperial Slavery. He is taking our people from what is ideally a debters working union and turning them into lifelong slaves with no protections or rights.

Anyway, I want you to know I respect the opinion you expressed in your comment in the GalNet thread, and can certainly understand it. Frankly, I'm hoping Imperial Slaves are taken off the market, and that they are re-implemented in passenger missions. We can both hope, right?

Yeah. The fact that any Commander can grab a hold full of Imperial Slaves and fly them to a Federation black market is evidence that the 'rights' of Imperial Slaves aren't being respected. Once they've entered the black market system all bets are off. The only way guarantee an Imperial Slave's well-being is for the Empire to control both sides of supply chain.

Seriously enjoyed your post and the opportunity to delve into the lore for a bit :)
 
Yeah. The fact that any Commander can grab a hold full of Imperial Slaves and fly them to a Federation black market is evidence that the 'rights' of Imperial Slaves aren't being respected. Once they've entered the black market system all bets are off. The only way guarantee an Imperial Slave's well-being is for the Empire to control both sides of supply chain.

Seriously enjoyed your post and the opportunity to delve into the lore for a bit :)

Is that evidence of corruption, or is it evidence of bad game mechanics? I would say the latter.
 
I'm still waiting for passengers. Originally iSlaves were meant to be only transported in cabins, and moving them into cargo canisters or hacking their ID chips was a felony in Imperial worlds and would put a bounty on your heard.
 
I read the last 2 sentences and have no clue. Did that pretty much sum up the wall of text? :)

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Tl;dr version

People who hate democracy took off to a far away planet then committed genocide on an entire sentient alien species to settle in then established a monarchy because clearly that is the best way to rule. They did this because of the evil Federation which never did those in more than over a thousand years by the way.

Oh i nearly forgot, imps absolutely love their slaves too. You can't have a royal mine the materials needed for his/her starship for a year just to visit the royal aunt at Capitol after all, that time surely must be used to polish ones nails or admire the new curtains on one's personal palace. The motto of imps usually goes as everything is possible once you throw enough human death and suffering at it.

Empire... the literal space cancer.

While it's quite funny to hear your Federation propaganda rant, you have to remember that it's at least as dangerous to believe the own propaganda as it is to believe the propaganda of the opponent :D
 
Thus the Federation was forged during the first quarter of the 23rd century. Forged through conquest and the imposition of the will of Sol on the early human colonies.

Honestly the way this was presented, it throws a Shade of Grey on the Federation's reputation of being this warmongering conqueror. The way most of the lore is written out, it tries to paint the Federation in a very black light.

A few interesting things to note. Most of calls for preservation of the various native life were from Sol. The very same Sol that, as stated in the Birth of the Federation, suffered Nuclear World War Three. Destroying most of the planet as we currently know it leaving behind a very vivid and terrible picture of what humans will do if left unchecked. I wouldn't be surprised if to this day, the inhabitants of Sol still carry the very vivid scars of that war even if the planet recovered.

Following the discovery of life on Mars and the fascination humans have with otherly world life, these events together would make sense that there would be a desire to preserve what we found as we expanded to the stars.

Especially given the Federation is a tech heavy power. Many technological innovations come from observing life around you and using their natural gifts as inspiration to come up with a mechanical means for humans to achieve the same.

Of course, there are always those that have to let their greed rule their desire and ruin it for the rest of us. The "Land Rush" triggered by the hyperdrive caused everyone to gleefully rush out there and grab as much stellar real estate as they could and exploit it. Even at the cost of the native life.

"It wasn’t until some of the ecological excesses of these early colonists became apparent over a century later that Earth took its first steps, founding the Federation and becoming the colossal entity it is now, creating some order in what had become an unruly free-for-all. "

So with everybody running wild all over the place. Sol remembered WWIII and tried to start reigning in the nightmare it had more or less unleashed.

Of course, once you open Pandora's Box. You can't close it again. Cue Tau Ceti and that entire mess.

In my eyes, the Federation earned it's reputation as a bully in the early days out of necessity. It was trying to limit how much damage humans were doing the very few habitable Earth-like Worlds.

Because lets face it. They're rare enough to begin with and as the flavor text on Alpha Centari points out, just because you breath on a planet without the need for a pressurized life support system doesn't mean it's a great place to live.

Quite possibly the early days of trying to reign everybody in and with them only responding to Force, the Presidents had to take a war standing to retain popularity. Eventually the Federation just became the bully FDev wanted them to be. To me however, there's something noble and proud under all that armor plating and twisted babbling of the whispers of the Corporation. An entity that's trying to take responsibility for what it's done and getting the message lost in all the corporate advertising and democratic bureaucracy.

To me, Marlin Duval saw that noble vision and was unhappy with how the Corporation was twisting things to it's advantage. She tried to take like minded individuals and create a "pure" version of the Federation free from it's trappings. Ultimately following her death, her vision was hijacked by her brother who immediately corrupted it into the early version of the Empire we have today. What could be seen as one woman's quest to show the Federation what it was supposed to be ended up the vision of one man's greed and lust for absolute power given physical form.

There's definitely elements of bias in the lore. The Federation some twisted corrupt warmonger while the Empire painted in a more shiny grey with a few elements to give them some moral question marks but there's a lot more positive lore about the Empire from what I can find while everything Federation is seen with a very negative look. Everybody else to include the Alliance is a giant question mark to me.
 
While it's quite funny to hear your Federation propaganda rant, you have to remember that it's at least as dangerous to believe the own propaganda as it is to believe the propaganda of the opponent :D

Just remember this when watching TV.

This thread is impressive! I can't join though because my english is not good enough for this. Hats off for you guys.
 
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