The fallacy of how PvP can protect your system from being undermined.

[Robert Maynard]

IMHO PP should be Open only. I don't care about any other aspect of the game, trading, exploration, mining can be done in solo or private groups, that's fine. But I would like to be able to face those CMDRs in fat cargo ships trying to fortify while I'm undermining. Right now I see none. Probably 95% of PP is done in solo/groups. Out of those 95% probably a good majority of CMDRs choose solo/groups simply because they see no reason to disadvantage themselves for no reason (especially when the opposition they compete with uses solo/private), but they wouldn't mind being forced to do it in Open if everyone is forced to do so.

I'd really like to take a look at the source statistics for this statement....

 

[Harpeizanae]

51TH Massilia Corporation recently lost their home station. It was located in BV Phoenicis system the way I hear it, and their faction was aligned as Independent. Essentially disregarding at least one recommendation from Frontier regarding player controlled minor factions.
I'm not particularly in the know and should clarify I'm only calling it a fiasco due to the very minor fallout it created. Which mainly played out over on the Elite subreddit, link to thread. It's the most recent event that comes to mind.

Quick edit:
I would actually like to see a rep. from Adle's Armada or Mercs of Mikunn comment on this. It would be valuable to hear their input considering their experience.

 

[Goose4291]

I'd really like to take a look at the source statistics for this statement....

It'll be based on common sense, not statistics. If powerplay was being carried out in open, when you were flying in the powers capitals, you'd see a lot of players in traders (as you need to take fortification tokens from a capital to a control system to fortify it successfully), whereas all you see are players from the other powers floating around hoping to catch them on their return legs.

Same goes for Control systems as well. I've spent 2-3hrs in a system undermining at peak UK times, watching the fortification levels go through the roof on the status update page without seeing one person other than the occasional other underminer.

 

[Nerwan]

they can't. simply for game mechanics. no pvp'ler can stop a cobra mkIII or a blockade running clipper or cutter, simply for game mechanics.

tested a lot personally.

I'm not going to explain on the forums (it's not my testing etc to give away), but all of those ships can be countered...

 

[Robert Maynard]

It'll be based on common sense, not statistics. If powerplay was being carried out in open, when you were flying in the powers capitals, you'd see a lot of players in traders (as you need to take fortification tokens from a capital to a control system to fortify it successfully), whereas all you see are players from the other powers floating around hoping to catch them on their return legs.

Same goes for Control systems as well. I've spent 2-3hrs in a system undermining at peak UK times, watching the fortification levels go through the roof on the status update page without seeing one person other than the occasional other underminer.

Given the lack of certainty that any player will be instanced with any other player, personal observations of system traffic can only ever be subjective and any assessment based on that subjective view would be speculative at best.

 

[aymerix]

I have already said it. I say it again, for me undermining is unfair. No tool exists to counter it.
Like many other groups, I ask, once again, to Frontier to respond to this real problem.

Regards

Aymerix
Black Birds Squadron Leader.

 

[Boomer Kay]

I have already said it. I say it again, for me undermining is unfair. No tool exists to counter it.

And yet Eravate is standing.

 

[aymerix]

And yet Eravate is standing.

Right, but undermining is really difficult to counter for smaller groups. Leave it that way only facilitates quantitative and not qualitative. The goal is only to have large groups in Elite?
I find that solo's underminig is not fair play at all. really not.

 

[Goose4291]

Given the lack of certainty that any player will be instanced with any other player, personal observations of system traffic can only ever be subjective and any assessment based on that subjective view would be speculative at best.

You're right, but we can only go on the evidence we have to hand, and unless Frontier provide us with stats, we have to use the best we have by pooling data and personal encounters. The lack of powerplay fortification players in open being observed, particularly when coupled with the fact that the groups that take part in power-play openly encourage this method of gaming within their own spheres (i.e. the subreddits and their own private forums) due to the lack of counter it has from their opposition indicates that this is the case though.

 

[Fracktal]

I have already said it. I say it again, for me undermining is unfair. No tool exists to counter it.
Like many other groups, I ask, once again, to Frontier to respond to this real problem.

Regards

Aymerix
Black Birds Squadron Leader.

Not true.

Whether it's the BGS or powerplay, it is possible as long as you have the appropriate number of commanders supporting you.

Faction influence in Elite Dangerous is a number game.

Adle's Armada is the best illustration for this.

They asked for support and managed to keep their minor faction influence afloat, even with the handicap of being in a populated system and in the middle of the bubble in the starter system (so lots of traffic).

 

[Robert Maynard]

You're right, but we can only go on the evidence we have to hand, and unless Frontier provide us with stats, we have to use the best we have by pooling data and personal encounters. The lack of powerplay fortification players in open being observed, particularly when coupled with the fact that the groups that take part in power-play openly encourage this method of gaming within their own spheres (i.e. the subreddits and their own private forums) due to the lack of counter it has from their opposition indicates that this is the case though.

Indeed.

The only hard evidence that we have are the displayed statistics. Frontier, on the other hand, have access to all manner of in-game analytics - they know who did what, where, when, to whom and in which game mode.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

51TH Massilia Corporation recently lost their home station. It was located in BV Phoenicis system the way I hear it, and their faction was aligned as Independent.…

Thanks for the reply and link to the relevant informations.

Now I understand why Agony Aunt started this thread.

lol

Interdicting a few players in Open Mode …

LOL

 

[JosiahD]

Affecting the BGS is a PVE only activity, and in my opinion this is the biggest problem. It should be a PVP only activity.

Sorry but you bought the wrong game for that. Right from the start, this game was always going to PvE-focused by design, with (combat-focused) PvP as a sideline. And that was fairly evident right from the Kickstarter, in my opinion. But then, as we also always knew right from the start, this game was never going to suit everyone's taste.......

 

[xDreadnoughtx]

Given the lack of certainty that any player will be instanced with any other player, personal observations of system traffic can only ever be subjective and any assessment based on that subjective view would be speculative at best.

Indeed.

Maybe serves as a reminder that the OP did not intend this as a discussion of PP. The use of the word "undermine" will naturally provoke PPers to jump right on in. That's an entirely different debate.

Edit: PS in favour of open Powerplay incentives.

 

[Boomer Kay]

Right, but undermining is really difficult to counter for smaller groups. Leave it that way only facilitates quantitative and not qualitative. The goal is only to have large groups in Elite?
I find that solo's underminig is not fair play at all. really not.

It's a huge Galaxy and still a big enough uncivilized bubble.
Why would you want to put your small group in the center of attention?
It's both quantitave and qualitative. You play the game better, you have an advantage. You have more numbers, you have an advantage.
That's the "open world MMO" part. If you want to test how well 5 of your friends fare in PvP, there's Arena and the PvP league and so on. As a "political power" (and that's what the BGS is about), they're insignificant.

 

[ShimEnki]

Affecting the BGS is a PVE only activity, and in my opinion this is the biggest problem. It should be a PVP only activity.

Go ahead CMDR and deny PVE action re bgs. The only question is will you foot the bill to keep this game alive once PVE'ers say "bye bye" hmm?

 

[aymerix]

OK I'm wrong. No problem. I get the echo of players in the french groups (or not) that are discouraged and leave the game.
I think it's a shame. And if the 51th left the game because of that, I would be very unhappy.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

So are you suggesting that PVP flags include minor factions? If so, I am all for it

Actually, more or less.

I'd even go as far as to say if there were in-game mechanisms that would highlight who your faction is at war with and friendly with, and there were strong penalties for killing friends and good rewards for killing enemies, it would be a good thing, possibly even attract more people into open.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

OP: Is that your personal opinion or is that FD's stand as well?

i thought moderators are supposed to be impartial about the views of players...

I am not employed by FD, therefore i cannot speak for them. However, good news! It means I am allowed to have my own opinion! Yay!

 

[Boomer Kay]

OK I'm wrong. No problem. I get the echo of players in the french groups (or not) that are discouraged and leave the game.
I think it's a shame. And if the 51th left the game because of that, I would be very unhappy.

Well, they could band together and help each other out?
Where were the other players when 51st was attacked?
I know where I was, when Eravate got attacked (from whoever, however .. don't care .. might be just the new players flying missions for the opposing faction, because they're more numerous on the BBs). In Eravate. Countering the attack with what little I could contribute.