The Limit Theory Thread

[X2Eliah]

I'm not a backer, but I've been keeping an eye on that project time to time.

Has he discussed gameplay mechanics yet? (balancing, gameplay possibilities, flight/trade mechanics, ship design, stuff like that) The videos that I've randomly happened across have always been about either the UI or the visuals of the game.

 

[Philip Coutts]

I'm not a backer, but I've been keeping an eye on that project time to time.

Has he discussed gameplay mechanics yet? (balancing, gameplay possibilities, flight/trade mechanics, ship design, stuff like that) The videos that I've randomly happened across have always been about either the UI or the visuals of the game.

The last few updates have been more to do with the nuts and bolts gameplay such as mining, missions and trading. Best to look for update videos from around January onwards.

 

[Dinosawer]

Yes, he just wrote in his daily devlog that June's going to be about adding content and gameplay now all the behind-the-scenes stuff is mostly implemented. Exciting

 

[psyron]

I don't think this game will ever become a success.

His scope and ambition is simply to big for a single person.

He always presents a lot of graphic effects (guess he likes playing a lot with some graphic libraries). But i don't actually see fun gameplay.

Always showing a lot of "potential", but bringing the game together, "polishing it" is much more difficult and time consuming than he might anticipate.

Best negative example is Star Citizen - they doing the same mistakes, focusing on graphical details, while ED is focusing on the actual gameplay: flying experience, dogfighting and so on - and this really is a very time consuming process, because you have to tweak and test it a lot of times over and over again.

Just my opinion.

 

[Tinman]

I don't think this game will ever become a success.

His scope and ambition is simply to big for a single person.

He always presents a lot of graphic effects (guess he likes playing a lot with some graphic libraries). But i don't actually see fun gameplay.

Always showing a lot of "potential", but bringing the game together, "polishing it" is much more difficult and time consuming than he might anticipate.

Best negative example is Star Citizen - they doing the same mistakes, focusing on graphical details, while ED is focusing on the actual gameplay: flying experience, dogfighting and so on - and this really is a very time consuming process, because you have to tweak and test it a lot of times over and over again.

Just my opinion.

Elite was made by 2 guys, Minecraft by 1 (in the beginning), just saying.

Focusing on gameplay is just what he has been doing the last couple of months. Graphics work have been minimal. The main work has been in game systems around research, economics, AI, command structures and so on...

I think he has a really good thing going here. It's if course completely different from both Elite and Star Citizen in how it will play though, which is good!

 

[dannysquid]

I share some of these worries. A brilliant interface designer isn't necessarily going to be a brilliant game designer. Not saying it won't be great, but...

I did like the mining mechanics though.

 

[Verne]

Current estimate is still mid-2014, which he considers May-August.

That is correct, Dinosawer (I had no idea you were part of the Community here).

I quote Josh on his latest pronouncement concerning the release date for anyone who missed it on the LT forums.

"If the release date must be changed, then it will be changed - but I cannot and will not do such things casually (such as in a reply to a forum topic). A decision like that is not to be taken lightly, and if it occurs (again), there must be an official announcement, a reasonable explanation, and a new timeline.

Until something like that should occur, my release date estimate remains exactly what it is: the official release date estimate. I have crafted it as best I can taking into consideration the work remaining at the start of the year. I don't think it's helpful to ask "is the release date still valid?" The point of the release date is that it's my best official estimate until changed. Furthermore, let it be known that, as far as I am concerned, 'mid' constitutes the middle 4 months of the year (since we separate the year into early, mid, and late). That means the current estimate is sometime between May and August, inclusive."

He doesn't see speculation concerning this issue as helpful so has taken to locking any thread which he believes to be unhelpful on this subject.

 

[Philip Coutts]

Is LT hugely ambitious, yes it is. Will it fulfil everything that is being muted, maybe not. Will it still be an excellent game. No doubt in my mind at all that it will. I can't help seeing the link between the original Elite and LT. Braben and Bell were told several times that their game wouldn't sell and no-one would play it. Elite was hugely ambitious at the time just as Limit Theory is now. I have a lot of faith in Josh, he talks about where he wants to go and I believe he can get there. LT might not be the perfect game but LT2 well that might well be......

 

[Philip Coutts]

June update video for all to enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r6N7_HAsZo

Unfortunately it also contains the rather less than welcome news that the game has been delayed again. The latest dates are December 2014 for the Beta and early 2015 for the full release.

 

[Mu77ley]

It's probably needed. It's very pretty looking, but there's actually not much actual game in there yet.

Hopefully he'll nail that down over the next few months.

 

[psyron]

June update video for all to enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r6N7_HAsZo

Unfortunately it also contains the rather less than welcome news that the game has been delayed again. The latest dates are December 2014 for the Beta and early 2015 for the full release.

As i told earlier already:
This project is much too huge for a single person. And even the new release date is not realistic. I doubt that he will ever finish that game with all the announced functionality.
If he decides to reduce it to a very simplistic game he might finish it somewhere 2016. But then again - will he be able to found it anylonger with no other money inflow?

Don't get me wrong, i am a software developer myself and have respect for his ambitions. But working on details always take double the amount of time compared to the work on the core system. He hasn't even finished the core system therefore you can expect 2 more years of work.

And why is he never talking about Elite Dangerous? He knows exactly that what he is trying to build is "Elite Dangerous Light". Even if he will succeed - what's the point of doing so? Nobody will ever seriously play a "light"-version if you can play the real deal.

Respect again to that young man. He might profit from his experiences on future jobs, but this project is not going to be successful imo.

Edit:
And i don't think you can compare LT to the original Elite when it comes to development time because Josh is so much focused on graphics and as we can see with SC, the risk on loosing yourself in graphics is very high because there simply is "no limit".

 

[Philip Coutts]

I've expressed similar concerns over on the LT board. Over there they are pretty laid back and relaxed folks and in general aren't too bothered with the slippage of the release date. I'm not getting bent out of shape about it either but Josh does need to be careful here. He seems to be a perfectionist and my worry is it's always "just a little tweak and then it will be perfect" and this leads to the never ending story. For example he initially said there would be very little modding, then it was a little and now this month he is saying there will be a whole lot of modding in the game.

I think he needs to get a definitive "This is in the game and this is not in the game" list and stick to it like glue. I think this is one of the perils about a one man development team that they can so caught up in their baby that they lose sight of the end point.

 

[jabokai]

And why is he never talking about Elite Dangerous? He knows exactly that what he is trying to build is "Elite Dangerous Light". Even if he will succeed - what's the point of doing so? Nobody will ever seriously play a "light"-version if you can play the real deal.

I may end up playing LT more then ED, depending on how things go on both projects. I don't think it's as simple as you state.

 

[Tinman]

And why is he never talking about Elite Dangerous? He knows exactly that what he is trying to build is "Elite Dangerous Light". Even if he will succeed - what's the point of doing so? Nobody will ever seriously play a "light"-version if you can play the real deal.

Respect again to that young man. He might profit from his experiences on future jobs, but this project is not going to be successful imo.

Elite light?

A lot of Limit Theory (but not all) seems to be about "empire building", industry, research, controlling other ships in a RTS way and so on...very different from what Elite is about so this argument doesn't hold water.

His project is ALREADY successful since he got many times more money during his KS than he originally asked for. ;k)

 

[psyron]

I may end up playing LT more then ED, depending on how things go on both projects. I don't think it's as simple as you state.

I am a software developer with 20+ years of experience and you are?
I feel you have similar kind of character as Josh, always very sure of yourself. Maybe it's related to your young ages? With the speed of 100 km/h towards the wall with full optimism ... and 1m before the impact comes a "oh sorry guys, i guess we will all die!".

I am not trying to bash an unexperienced software developer here. I have faced very simillar problems as Josh in my career. You always think "only this little tweak and everything will be fine". It's so easy to loose the big picture and tweaking on details. Josh is talented, but he is too optimistic and has not enough experiences with those kind of big projects.

But i know - young people don't like to hear this kind of criticism as i didn't like to hear them when i was younger.
He should continue his project. But the backers should be realistic on how the final product will look like.

 

[jabokai]

I am a software developer with 20+ years of experience and you are?

I'm the same. Not games, but business applications though. I understand the part of your post I didn't quote and comment on which is what you're re-replying to here... no idea why.

My comment was based solely on the bit of text I quoted... funny that.

 

[psyron]

Elite light?

A lot of Limit Theory (but not all) seems to be about "empire building", industry, research, controlling other ships in a RTS way and so on...very different from what Elite is about so this argument doesn't hold water.

His project is ALREADY successful since he got many times more money during his KS than he originally asked for. ;k)

So money is the measurement for success?!?
Then i guess SC also is a success?

Sorry but i evaluate a game merely on its final state, not on the surrounding PR or the number of backers and fanboys. And till now i don't see any valuable gameplay. In contrast to this in ED Alpha, even being an Alpha, there was already al lot of great gameplay.

 

[psyron]

I'm the same. Not games, but business applications though. I understand the part of your post I didn't quote and comment on which is what you're re-replying to here... no idea why.

My comment was based solely on the bit of text I quoted... funny that.

Ok, but you have to agree that he is constantly talking about procedural generation but THE godfather on this topic is obviously David Braben and the original ELITE. So why does he never even mention ED? (I watched all of his videos, did i miss it?)

He is only talking about Freelancer, never mentioning ED. He obviously fears the comparison, as CR does with SC.
Josh is a clever guy - but not honest on this regard.

 

[Verne]

Ok, but you have to agree that he is constantly talking about procedural generation but THE godfather on this topic is obviously David Braben and the original ELITE. So why does he never even mention ED? (I watched all of his videos, did i miss it?)

He is only talking about Freelancer, never mentioning ED. He obviously fears the comparison, as CR does with SC.
Josh is a clever guy - but not honest on this regard.

Josh Parnell has huge respect for David Braben and has stated this on the LT forums although it's doubtful he has ever played any of the earlier Elite titles in any depth. He mentions Freelancer on a more than regular basis because that's his primary inspiration for Limit Theory. It's always been his bible as far as game play is concerned. He doesn't mention Star Citizen either if you've taken the time to notice. He isn't making a copy of another game. Limit Theory is the game Josh wants to play. It is true that he has added elements to it which don't compromise his own vision (to be more inclusive in regard to the Limit Theory Community) but it will always remain HIS game.

You may or may not be aware that he has been a member of the Elite Community in spirit since the early days of the KS and pledged for his package like the rest of us. If he had more time he would be out there in the Elite universe doing his thing. Unfortunately, that is not a priority for him at the moment although I'm sure he must have logged in to have a quick blast at the asteroids in ED on one of his monthly days off. It would have been far too tempting for him to resist.

He's fascinated by all things procedural, psyron, he's even tried to convince me that the future of games music is procedural.

 

[Dante80]

Josh Parnell has huge respect for David Braben and has stated this on the LT forums although it's doubtful he has ever played any of the earlier Elite titles in any depth. He mentions Freelancer on a more than regular basis because that's his primary inspiration for Limit Theory. It's always been his bible as far as game play is concerned. He doesn't mention Star Citizen either if you've taken the time to notice. He isn't making a copy of another game. Limit Theory is the game Josh wants to play. It is true that he has added elements to it which don't compromise his own vision (to be more inclusive in regard to the Limit Theory Community) but it will always remain HIS game.

You may or may not be aware that he has been a member of the Elite Community in spirit since the early days of the KS and pledged for his package like the rest of us. If he had more time he would be out there in the Elite universe doing his thing. Unfortunately, that is not a priority for him at the moment although I'm sure he must have logged in to have a quick blast at the asteroids in ED on one of his monthly days off. It would have been far too tempting for him to resist.

He's fascinated by all things procedural, psyron, he's even tried to convince me that the future of games music is procedural.

This is a great post.

JP is making the game that he dreams, and each and every update makes the game better and better. I wholeheartedly support him, as well as the other crazy solo developer that is making Space Engine (Vladimir Romanyuk). :smilie: