The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

Guilds and Player Owned Stations

  • Guilds and limited player-owned stations

    Votes: 788 54.4%
  • No guilds or player owned stations

    Votes: 506 34.9%
  • Guilds but no limited player-owned stations

    Votes: 155 10.7%

  • Total voters
    1,449
  • Poll closed .
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Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Guilds if they existed would have little or no direct influence over players outside of Open. Which means the next step in the inevitable chess opening is "Well if we have our guild and we are doing amazing stuff in Open, it is unfair that our activities are opposed outside of Open mode and we demand separate BGS"...
At which point this whole stalking horse gets merged into the threadnought.
 
Not yet, but here I go: Why/if you dislike the idea of guilds? Why/if you dislike the idea of player owned structures?

All I see is: PRO camp - actually stating why they want it.
Con camp - Shouting NONONO without any solid argumentation and somehow pulling solo/open debate in here.

I've already explained back a few tens of pages but I'll quote myself since you missed it.

How would your proposed guild react to clean independent pilots passing through their territory. Here's some examples of whats not acceptable :

Shoot on sight
Told to leave
Deny docking permission
Refused access to trade
Refused access to repair/refuel/reload
Forced recruitment
Demands for tribute

TL : DR we don't want to see big signs with "no gurls aloud" on them
 
How would your proposed guild react to clean independent pilots passing through their territory. Here's some examples of whats not acceptable :

Shoot on sight
Told to leave
Deny docking permission
Refused access to trade
Refused access to repair/refuel/reload
Forced recruitment
Demands for tribute

TL : DR we don't want to see big signs with "no gurls aloud" on them

Sounds a lot like another game I used to play...
 
I've already explained back a few tens of pages but I'll quote myself since you missed it.
Damn, I knew it was gonna be about cyberbullies cyberbullying. But wait, all of that ALREADY happens, partly thanks to PP. Some call it emergent gameplay and living-breathing, cut-throat galaxy even. You seem to try your best to bargain yourself a safer, more predictable environment where you are always in control in open ended multyplayer game with all kinds of people driven by all kinds of motives. That's pretty uh... I don't know... delusional?
 
No. They don't. They only have different ramifications if you GIVE them such. Stop fearmongering.

So the solution to restricting the (well known) negative aspects of guilds is to restrict them.

ED already did it PP is guilds lite you can support an NPC group but you don't get to be galactic dictator.

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Damn, I knew it was gonna be about cyberbullies cyberbullying. But wait, all of that ALREADY happens, partly thanks to PP. Some call it emergent gameplay and living-breathing, cut-throat galaxy even. You seem to try your best to bargain yourself a safer, more predictable environment where you are always in control in open ended multyplayer game with all kinds of people driven by all kinds of motives. That's pretty uh... I don't know... delusional?

Examples required.
 
Damn, I knew it was gonna be about cyberbullies cyberbullying. But wait, all of that ALREADY happens, partly thanks to PP. Some call it emergent gameplay and living-breathing, cut-throat galaxy even. You seem to try your best to bargain yourself a safer, more predictable environment where you are always in control in open ended multyplayer game with all kinds of people driven by all kinds of motives. That's pretty uh... I don't know... delusional?


Nah...players killing players isn't where the cut throat part of the game comes from, groups running PvE goals are where you truly create conflict in this game! Direct PvP is just a waste of time for in game advancement...and pure fun for Role Players or the nefarious. For those that want to accomplish goals, or wreak havoc, in the game, whether for vertical advancement (more or better ships) or those wanting to affect the game (through Power Play or Community Goals or the Background Simulation) PvE interactions and Cooperation are the only winning strategies.
 
So why add them to the game when we already have them? You have a choice of powers to follow, or you can abstract it a little and just go alliance/fed/imperial/indep or nobody at all. You don't need guilds to have a game. Gamers that need guilds to have a game may need to reflect upon that for a bit.

Because the less time and effort people have to spend organizing their social groups outside of the game, the more time they can spend playing the game and enjoying it. The more they enjoy the game, the longer they stick around. It'd be nice if 4 years from now ED didn't have a population of 12.

This has only been said 20 times. Strong social tools, and thus strong social groups, keep a game alive and profitable for an indeterminate amount of time. Games lacking such die young. I already pointed out in another thread a game I used to play that has been around since 1990 solely because it had a good community. ED's community is vile, and yet none of you want to do anything to improve it. Time and again we have pointed out how Guilds and social tools improve the overall mentality of a community and yet all you do is feign ignorance and natter on about how it's just another way for the horrible PvPers to hunt you down.

http://www.play.net/gs4/

26 years as an Open PvP game, with a community that is 99% PvE because the players chose to enforce that behavior themselves and because the creators enabled it with strong social tools to help them organize.
 
That obviously is only of import to those who want/need their video gaming to be a social experience. For me it's not - if I want to socialise I go to a bar and meet real people. If I want so combine video gaming and socialising - I either invent friends round or take a machine to their place.

Video gaming as a central (and possibly only) platform for social interaction, I find kind of scary.

Having said that, sometimes it is a heap of fun to slap on the headset, get your online friends together, crack open some beers and enjoy a night of leading your guild to victory :)

Just not in Elite ;)
 
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Examples required.
Is that intentionally obtuse week?
Someone can kill you in open. Someone can demand your cargo. Someone can force you out of the RES/CZ. Someone can demand you join ADL and kill you if you deny.
Same for solo, try and get to unfriendly with a faction. See what happens.
Are you really trying to imply that same things are not possible now? That's irrational bully fobia speaking, time to punch that EVE boogeyman again.

Nah...players killing players isn't where the cut throat part of the game comes from, groups running PvE goals are where you truly create conflict in this game! Direct PvP is just a waste of time for in game advancement...and pure fun for Role Players or the nefarious. For those that want to accomplish goals, or wreak havoc, in the game, whether for vertical advancement (more or better ships) or those wanting to affect the game (through Power Play or Community Goals or the Background Simulation) PvE interactions and Cooperation are the only winning strategies.
Not a native speaker, sorry. Moreso, with an unusually high amount of "interesting" opinions, I'm not sure if that was a sarcastic statement. Not that CG are not part of the living universe, they are.
 
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That obviously is only of import to those who want/need their video gaming to be a social experience. For me it's not - if I want to socialise I go to a bar and meet real people. If I want so combine video gaming and socialising - I either invent friends round or take a machine to their place.

Video gaming as a central (and possibly only) platform for social interaction, I find kind of scary.

Having said that, sometimes it is a heap of fun to slap on the headset, get your online friends together, crack open some beers and enjoy a night of leading your guild to victory :)

Just not in Elite ;)

Now you're fabricating fantasies to support your stance. The rest of us prefer face to face interaction also, that doesn't mean that we can't get something out of knowing our wingmates a little better. If you have no interest in joining a guild in ED that's fine. You're not obligated to. Just don't sit here and petition to have them barred from the game forever simply because it doesn't benefit you. None of us are here asking the devs to enforce PvP interaction, so there is no reason for you to be here demanding that we be forced to have a lack of social interaction.
 
Fabricating fantasies? How do you come to that conclusion? I don't want guilds in Elite as I don't believe it will benefit Elite - unless those guilds are segregated so that they only play with each other.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
And until you can prove that not one person backed down from buying the game because it had poor social networking, it doesn't matter why those people bought it, because just as that theoretical group exists, so to is there a theoretical group of people who would have bought the game BECAUSE it supported guilds.

What you just described about Mobius is a Guild. Only difference is that it is separated from everyone else.

Those that backed the game confirmed to Frontier that there was enough appetite among potential players for their stated game design. Those that chose not to back the game did not affect that outcome.

The theoretical group that might have backed if the game had included Guilds is hypothetical - unless another Kickstarter was run with Guilds added we'd not know the outcome - and it's too late for that as Elite: Dangerous (no-guilds) has already been backed.

If Mobius is a Guild, why do Guilds not flock to Private Groups?
 
Is that intentionally obtuse week?
Someone can kill you in open. Someone can demand your cargo. Someone can force you out of the RES/CZ. Someone can demand you join ADL and kill you if you deny.
Same for solo, try and get to unfriendly with a faction. See what happens.
Are you really trying to imply that same things are not possible now? That's irrational bully fobia speaking, time to punch that EVE boogeyman again.

You complained that nobody would explain what the issue with guilds are I listed some for you, your reaction to receiving the information you asked for (aside from childish insults) is to try and treat it as a solo/pvp issue.

You've missed the point guilds comprise lots of people, random PvP is limited in size to a wing. Stations and the services they provide are (largely) unaffected by ganking wings, but would be effected by guild control.

So here it is again go through the points from the perceptive of the effects on an independent pilot and that pilots ability to blaze his own trail, bear in mind wing based PvP is not an issue.

How would your proposed guild react to clean independent pilots passing through their territory. Here's some examples of whats not acceptable :

Shoot on sight
Told to leave
Deny docking permission
Refused access to trade
Refused access to repair/refuel/reload
Forced recruitment
Demands for tribute
 
And until you can prove that not one person backed down from buying the game because it had poor social networking, it doesn't matter why those people bought it, because just as that theoretical group exists, so to is there a theoretical group of people who would have bought the game BECAUSE it supported guilds.

What you just described about Mobius is a Guild. Only difference is that it is separated from everyone else.

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The same way that PowerPlay only benefits those that support and participate, and has no benefit to anyone else. The same way that Community Goals only effect people that participate, and no one else. The same way that Exploration, Trading, and Bounty hunting only benefit their participants.

And in so doing they only proved that the absence of guilds wouldn't prevent the polarization of the community.

You've gone a bridge to far here mate, you're really stretching now. You may want to reexamine exactly what you think you're saying. Mobius as a guild, yup....please. Mobius is no more a guild than open is a guild.

The fact is the developers made a choice during the backing phase as to the dogma they wanted to back their game and they chose the ideal of not having formal player controlled groups, by making it clear there would not be guilds. Your point about people that might have backed if there were guilds is moot. Add onto that that the whole spirit of the game as players is independence. We all belong to the pilots federation and that's it, we're a loosely affiliated group of individuals each making our own way in the galaxy and organizing into formal, in game groups completely goes against the atmosphere and culture of the game, you effectively make it into something it isn't.

There isn't a adversarial division between powerplayers and non-powerplayers because it is administered by a neutral third party that makes no such distinction, and any individual that decides there is a division only has the power of that individual to influence the game that way, he has no in game tools to spread that doctrine to other players or organize other players who adhere to it, he is hindered from that kind of unwanted behavior simply by the lack of tools and the game mechanics. If you introduce a guild structure players automatically and naturally assume an adversarial stance with those not in their guild and you not only give them the tools to organize that kind of behavior but the action of giving them the tools endorses it; they tell players they want them to do that.

Powerplay has no effect on the non-participants because it is overlaid as a separate structure. It has its rules etc, administered by devs, but it is separate, yes I see powerplay affiliates, but I will not be attacked by a person because of powerplay unless I associate myself with powerplay, it has 0 net effect on my gameplay, I suppose someone could try to force me to pledge and attack me for not being pledged, but they gain nothing by doing so, indeed they will get a bounty even in their faction leaders home system for attacking me, the behavior is discouraged by the game mechanics as they are now laid out, and the mechanics are carefully monitored by a responsible neutral third party (devs).

By introducing a guild structure I am automatically enrolled in it, whether I want to be in a guild or not other players can and would interact with me because they are in a guild and I am not in a guild. Players will automatically assume an adversarial division between those in their guild and not in their guild. We know this to be true because the second you see a hollow icon on the scanner you sharpen your senses for a potential adversary in that individual, because we are both individuals we are on even footing. Not every guild will take active hostile actions towards those not in their guild, no, but it doesn't take every guild. They would get whatever reward their loose cannon GM set for attacking non-guildies. You see, because it is player administered they cannot efficiently or effectively keep it in check without cutting those players who are a lesion to the community off completely, which is not a healthy way to run a game community, especially when you gave them the tools to behave that way. The sheer size of the task would make it impossible to monitor effectively, it becomes a beast of it's own only kept in check by itself and we can see how that plays out in other games, and the effect it has on players who want to play as individuals (the whole point of this game!).

The fact that there are already player groups organized out of game without in game guild functions that practice the kind of behaviors that have been referenced over and over and over and over in this thread is undeniable proof that that kind of behavior would proliferate to a much greater degree given in game communication/recruitment/status tools. Now there are good groups that help the community, the fuel rats for example, but knowing human tendency, having in evidence years of game experience, we know where the majority of the energy would be put, and it wouldn't be to racing eagles across hostile space for giggles.
 
You complained that nobody would explain what the issue with guilds are I listed some for you, your reaction to receiving the information you asked for (aside from childish insults) is to try and treat it as a solo/pvp issue.

You've missed the point guilds comprise lots of people, random PvP is limited in size to a wing. Stations and the services they provide are (largely) unaffected by ganking wings, but would be effected by guild control.

So here it is again go through the points from the perceptive of the effects on an independent pilot and that pilots ability to blaze his own trail, bear in mind wing based PvP is not an issue.

How would your proposed guild react to clean independent pilots passing through their territory. Here's some examples of whats not acceptable :

Shoot on sight
Told to leave
Deny docking permission
Refused access to trade
Refused access to repair/refuel/reload
Forced recruitment
Demands for tribute
How else would I treat it if your cons consist of "I don't want other players affecting me in a wrong way in a multiplayer game"? How I supposed to cosider your opinion serious even?
That's exactly what childish is: You are demanding a safe passage everywhere basically and everyone should follow your code of honor.
Limited wing size and p2p instancing already make it easier for people like you but that's not enough.
The fact that all outcomes chosen by you are negative speaks of your bias.

Oh and AGAIN things from your list already happen to a lone player, no matter open or solo. What wing size has to do with anything? You're getting waxed by 4 bad guys or 16 changes what? You should have boycotted wings then.

And I've missed that gem.
Here's some examples of whats not acceptable
Acceptable by who? Are you now in charge of the rulebook that everyone should follow? And you dare talk about childish? Wow.
 
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Well, if I were FD, I'd add guilds. They already have the money of those that didn't. Many have even purchased life time upgrades. There isn't much to lose. Onwards to new markets!
 
Well, if I were FD, I'd add guilds. They already have the money of those that didn't. Many have even purchased life time upgrades. There isn't much to lose. Onwards to new markets!

This HAS been their motto so far hasn't it?

"Ehh, We've sold them on Kickstarter packages, Alpha Access charges, Premium Beta access charges, Beta access charges... Yeah, we can tell them there isn't going to be an Offline mode now."
 
How else would I treat it if your cons consist of "I don't want other players affecting me in a wrong way in a multiplayer game"? How I supposed to cosider your opinion serious even?
That's exactly what childish is: You are demanding a safe passage everywhere basically and everyone should follow your code of honor.
Limited wing size and p2p instancing already make it easier for people like you but that's not enough.

The fact that all outcomes chosen by you are negative speaks of your bias.

You demanded examples I've given them to you, you can't or won't answer the points I've raised.

To clarify for you, I enjoy PvP when I'm in the mood, I enjoy Mobius when I'm in the mood and I enjoy solo when I'm in a mood.

I already have safe passage in the form of my A rated FDL.

I just don't like the effect guilds have on games, they restrict non-guild players and encourage mass-attery.
 
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