The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[The Wallet Inspector]

It did, 3 to 1 against.

And now the tables appear to be turning. Why were you so threatened by the prospect of a new poll?

 

[mossfoot]

Refer back to where we've pointed out that the purpose of asking for guilds is not because guild functions can't be done without official support, but because official support would improve the gameplay experience and quality of life of people who prefer to game socially and increase the game's longevity.

So let me put to you what I put to Malpherian earlier.

Let's assume you're not getting Guilds. Even if you could convince them right now to implement it, it would probably be a very long time before they did because they've already got a roadmap of what they are going to do in the next year.

So, if you're not getting Guilds any time soon, and you want Guild functionality, and you want it done easily in-game without requiring an extra screen, then wouldn't something like Overwolf have what you need? http://www.overwolf.com/

It supports Elite Dangerous and even has an Elite: Dangerous skin available

[video=youtube;kVu--raWO60]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVu--raWO60&feature=youtu.be[/video]

In terms of apps it has a range of chat, social, and other apps which should allow you to keep in touch and coordinate with your guild easily--again, all while in game and with an interface that blends in with the ED hud.

Why couldn't this give you much of what you're asking for?

 

[Gibbonici]

So let's say FD decide that building a strong guild game into Elite. They decide to allow guild owned stations and industry supported by a complex player-run economy. They create mechanics for conquering planets and systems, and build complex command and control systems into the guild structure and management screens. Additionally they commit to the ongoing balancing and content feeding that such gameplay requires to keep it fresh and interesting.

Then they release it as an expansion for £40. Who's still interested?

 

[david6768]

* As a person who recently purchased the game was it recommended to you? how much research did you do first? did you buy without researching and expect guilds to be in the game because its an MMO, or did you realise there are no guilds in the game but bought it anyway with the intention of changing the game?
What research I did do pointed to a game that was still being developed, I knew there were no guilds currently but what I didn't know was that I wouldn't be able to even find players online to look for a group in game or that basically every other form of playing the game together that is generally present in MMO's would be lacking. I didn't find that out until after purchase.

The funny thing all the I'm scared that guilds will take over the game and cause a pvp nightmare rhetoric is all the same complaints from the same people are already using them as the reason why they stay out of open. If you plan to stay out of open and play on Mobius or solo all the time then you really don't have a dog in the fight do you!

So you interpret "I have been a member of the Mobius private group for a long while now" as I only play in Mobius, very strange interpretation but people see what they want to read I guess. I most certainly do have a dog in this fight, I joined Mobius just in case open turned into a cesspit at some point, not surprisingly I rarely used it before Gamma but more after.
Yes I do believe I interepreted that your being a member of Mobuis that Mobius would be the most common mode or only mode you play on. This is a forum if I read something wrong you can tell me and I now understand that you play on multiple modes often, That was easy wasn't it You have corrected me a few times now I think, I can listen to others opinion or facts and be persuaded if I am wrong. I am not one to just keep spouting the argument until I die without actually reading what the counter arguments are. To be fair though my statement was a more generalized observation regarding the arguments I have read on the forums than a statement directed at you though.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

I very much doubt those voters would have changed their point of view significantly. Of course, they were mostly from 'the old audience' (the one that wanted the game DBOBE described in the kickstarter). Now we are awash with folks from a different audience, since FD have bent over backwards to attract them. So I would not be at all surprised if the results were different. And cue more complaints from the old audience about their game still not being delivered and FD changing their vision.

By bent over backwards, you mean "continue to improve and their product". If this game relied on those original backers desires, we would not even have Wings..

 

[Asp Explorer]

So let's say FD decide that building a strong guild game into Elite. They decide to allow guild owned stations and industry supported by a complex player-run economy. They create mechanics for conquering planets and systems, and build complex command and control systems into the guild structure and management screens. Additionally they commit to the ongoing balancing and content feeding that such gameplay requires to keep it fresh and interesting.

Then they release it as an expansion for £40. Who's still interested?

Let's say $400 and you've got a deal

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

How does this all work in SOLO/GROUP? How does it even work with the whole instancing in Open? And considering I have spent over half a billion, 400 mill just on my T9/Python/conda - How much do I need to start saving before I can buy my own starport?

Am struggling to see how this would all work.. I could see tiny player owned settlements once planetary landings come into place, but an entire starport?

It is better than having nothing at all to save up for. What were you going to do with the money after you have a kitted conda, more smaller ships you have already played with? Legislative contracts for Powerplay lol?

 

[ianw]

FD is not the only one with figures on player retention

http://steamspy.com/app/359320

Is that the entire player base? Of course not. But 280,000 is a sufficient sample size out of 650,000. In this day and age 25% is not "terrible", but it's not great either.

Your immediate response is that guilds will be used to step on solo players more. My entire argument has been that when social tools are added to games, and thus anonymity removed, people act more congenially towards each other, and even provided documentation to support it.

Everyone says that the primary problem with antisocial behavior on the internet is directly linked to the anonymity that it offers. Remove a layer of that anonymity in ED and see if things don't get a little brighter around here, both in the forums and in the game.

It is a reasonable size of the player base - but also represents a large number of post release players who clearly didn't know what they were getting and may be unhappy for any number of reasons - as we all know the game is far from finished.

I agree people do things under the shield of anonymity but I'm not sure how guilds remove anonymity? Are you saying that if they were introduced you would change your name to CMDR Reginald Spratt - 44 Acacia Avenue?



However there is also a well documented phenomenon of pack behaviour causing/allowing people to do things they otherwise wouldn't do due to the influence of peer pressure.

FWIW I don't expect guild players to be so very different to non guild players. Most of the guildies I've encountered have only had one head and seem to be absolutely fine.

 

[Malpherian]

* As a person who recently purchased the game was it recommended to you? how much research did you do first? did you buy without researching and expect guilds to be in the game because its an MMO, or did you realise there are no guilds in the game but bought it anyway with the intention of changing the game?

Eta if there was a complaint in the post you replied to it was about the poll choices and people emailing their mates to start a forum account to vote on something as a favour

I did a lot of research actually myself. The game is primarily advertised, and listed as an MMO, In fact most of the advertisements are very EvE robesque.. In Nature. While no, there is no mention of "Guilds" Specifically, there is a lot of ground work which you can see and view, that says there is support for them, In fact they advertise "Groups" as the guild feature, yet once you actually buy the game you find out real quick that Groups, are a far and long cry from anything which would be considered a guild, by any MMO player.

The game also states that it is still in development, and is not finished, I believe Steam has it listed as Early access.

---

The adds for the game are in fact a bit misleading, allowing the Users and MMO player's previous experience to color their assumptions about the game before purchase. Honestly it's a bit shady. Even their description on steam leads the consumer to make false or not entirely correct assumptions about the game.

But then if their listing said this:

* Mainly Solo Play with Co-Op, and Limited Social Interaction with other players in "Open" Mode.
* No guild Support
* Limited Content, but were working on Adding more for another 59.99$ After you buy the original Game for 29.99
* Lot's of Grinding

They wouldn't sell very many copies? Would they? Especially not to the MMO crowed, since the game is Listed and Heralded as an MMO but has little to none of the features other MMO's have. The misleading, and assumptions (Because there really is very little information, especially if you bought in a bit early) is why 100's of thousands of people bought the game, and then summarily, stopped playing.

They purchased a game under the assumption, that what they were getting was very different then what they got. And you can say they should have done the research all you want, but that doesn't work when the company itself's adverts are misleading, and when much of what you learn about he game you wont learn until your actually in it.

It's like EvE in that aspect as well, you can research EvE all you want, but you'll never get an actual idea of what it's like until you log in and play it. It's why they give a free Trial. If FD did that with ED, they would sell very little me thinks, especially to the MMO crowed (which is where the money is in today's market). Which is why ED does not offer a Free Trial. They know their sales would plummet after people found out how empty and unsporting of social groups and features it actually is, and how UN-MMO like it is, even by definition it "Barely" fits the general description and that only in a limited lackluster way.

Smart move on their part actually.

 

[Rick Venus]

Search for threads on the 'Transponder' that allowed CMDRs to not be identified as PCs (and thus looked like NPCs). This is what a significant number of players wanted (more than double those that wanted the current 'flashing blue light' for all). Sandro even said they were 'leaning towards it' and that they would probably test it out in the beta. Nothing happened, of course, so significant numbers of CMDRs ran away and hid in solo.

Performing to the level of an NPC would be a huge struggle. I would have to be sober to even have a chance.

 

[Robert Maynard]

By bent over backwards, you mean "continue to improve and their product". If this game relied on those original backers desires, we would not even have Wings..

Wings were discussed quite some time ago in the DDF - you should take a look at the archive. Lots of interesting potential (and already implemented) game features in there.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Mine hasn't. I would suggest that the reddit and this Forum have different audiences.

Here we go again.. What is with this weird attitude? It is like you are saying "I don't want it, so you can't have it". I would also suggest to you that the Reddit audience and the Forum audience are BOTH PLAYING THE SAME GAME.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

So let me put to you what I put to Malpherian earlier.

Let's assume you're not getting Guilds. Even if you could convince them right now to implement it, it would probably be a very long time before they did because they've already got a roadmap of what they are going to do in the next year.

So, if you're not getting Guilds any time soon, and you want Guild functionality, and you want it done easily in-game without requiring an extra screen, then wouldn't something like Overwolf have what you need? http://www.overwolf.com/

It supports Elite Dangerous and even has an Elite: Dangerous skin available

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVu--raWO60&feature=youtu.be

In terms of apps it has a range of chat, social, and other apps which should allow you to keep in touch and coordinate with your guild easily--again, all while in game and with an interface that blends in with the ED hud.

Why couldn't this give you much of what you're asking for?

Already use Overwolf. I was on TS before the cool kids heard about TS. Not everybody uses it though, or wants to. Many people prefer to have all of the social tools built within the game and balk at using third party apps. Gamers are lazy, you have to spoonfeed them.

I play alone almost exclusively. Guilds will not benefit me one bit directly. That doesn't mean that I don't recognize their use and purpose in MMO gaming. It has been a cornerstone of the market for 30 years and games without the features flounder and eventually flop. Indirectly guilds will benefit me by ensuring the long term success and popularity of the game.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

I swear one backer told me on this very forum the game went downhill with wings, because the players were too powerful, and claimed it wasn't in the vision of the game. My point exactly moderator. They confuse their vision for what was proposed. Also, the idea that this game cannot evolve beyond the DDF is a spurious one, and evidence suggests it has already crossed that line.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

It is a reasonable size of the player base - but also represents a large number of post release players who clearly didn't know what they were getting and may be unhappy for any number of reasons - as well all know the game is far from finished.

I agree people do things under the shield of anonymity but I'm not sure how guilds remove anonymity? Are you saying that if they were introduced you would change your name to CMDR Reginald Spratt - 44 Acacia Avenue?



However there is also a well documented phenomenon of pack behaviour causing/allowing people to do things they otherwise wouldn't do due to the influence of peer pressure.

FWIW I don't expect guild players to be so very different to non guild players. Most of the guildies I've encountered have only had one head and seem to be absolutely fine.

And that's exactly why they act more Benignly instead of malignantly, because they are being held accountable by their peers. It's one thing to ram a trader to death in Lave as a lone wolf and snicker to yourself. It's another thing to do it while you've got 3 trader guildmates undocking in the same area and asking what's going on over TS.

Edit: To be clearer, the studies you're referring to refer to juvenile delinquency. Links I posted earlier are specifically about online social groups, and they prove what I've stated.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Here we go again.. What is with this weird attitude? It is like you are saying "I don't want it, so you can't have it".

It's more that Frontier (in the person of DBOBE) have expressed concerns regarding behaviours facilitated by allowing players to form large groups. There are players who disagree with this stance and players who agree with it.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

It's more that Frontier (in the person of DBOBE) have expressed concerns regarding behaviours facilitated by allowing players to form large groups. There are players who disagree with this stance and players who agree with it.

His concerns don't reflect reality. I'd like to speak with him and introduce him to the mountain of evidence that proves it.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

The guilds issue has cropped up an many an occasion and always (thankfully) gone away.
introducing guilds seriously alters the basic premise of the game.
The idea that guilds would operate innocuously and unobtrusively within the game is folly. Guilds compete and grow and in order to succeed require areas of control. It may start with a single player controlled station but what happens when a dozen of them sign up to the same guild? You have a large area under one guilds control... Who will stop them shooting anyone who doesn't belong? I play ED cuz it has no guilds... If I'd wanted guilds I'd play eve

Who will stop them? I mean, it's an open universe. There is nothing to stop one player shooting another for ANY reason. Your complaint is basically that you may get killed by going through someone elses patch. That sounds like an exciting and dynamic part of the game. I would see it as a challenge, not be scared of it lol. I like how you end with "If i wanted guilds i would play eve", because that is the difference between Eve and ED right lol? One thing I have noticed throughout all the opposition is that they are motivated by FEAR. If that was the case, there is always solo mode. You have a dangerous combat rating as well hehe...

 

[Stigbob]

I realize your trolling, but seriously... At least learn what the terms I was using mean first. I was not a recruiter. I was an Executor, Meaning I ran, Managed, and Funded the Entire alliance. Which influenced and employed more people then FD does. Most people that play EvE are successful, There are US diplomats which play, senators which play, Business owners, and other well to do. One of the US ambassadors which belonged to Goonswarm was killed in that one Embassy Bombing a few years back.

You do understand that FD is real and your guild in EVE was just make believe in a game right ?. And be wary of people claiming to be the king of Nigeria on the internet.

Also I wasn't made paranoid, that was another poster, I got tired of playing EvE and didn't have the time to dedicate to it anymore. A Valid reason for moving to another game.

If you are tired of EVE why are you lobbying for EVE features, why not play the game as is.

Resulting to personal RL insults? Really? weren't you the one trumpeting your righteousness and how we Pro Guilders where just insulting you all and trying to destroy your game....

Actually if you look through the threads the vast majority of you anti Guild people are the ones lobbing the insults, while the Pro-Guild Union (with a few exceptions) Generally makes it's case, pointing out and linking evidences and citations. All you all are doing is slamming people with insults and the above is proof of that.

Link us some examples please, the guildies have certainly been flinging some mud.

* You state reasons for why guilds should not be in game, But fail to present actual Evidence, resulting to trolling and personal insults as a way to block out what you perceive as "bad". Your acting like little kids who have been told Santa clause is not real, and you shove your fingers in your ears and go "No" No' No".

You need to calm down and stop insulting people.

* We state reasons for why Guilds should be in game, and then link spam citations, studies, and marketing models which prove such.
* When asking you for evidence your only comment is "We can not provide such at this time" (And that reasonable and honest comment came from the Mod). For the most part, The rest of you, resort to deflection and trolling.

You give an opinion nothing more, we give ours. Both are equally valid (but ours is the right one).

On me,

I do not work at a petrol station, I work at a Factory, I also Own a Business I run as a hobby which makes Gaming computers and sells gaming equipment, It's called Guinea Pig Gaming, and you can find my store on Ebay. http://stores.ebay.com/Guineapiggaming?_rdc=1 I do Custom builds as well so email me if anyone is interested.

I am Former US Army, 19-D cav scout, and I have 3 degrees. 1 in Business Management and Economics, One in Behavioral Psychology, and Philosophy, and One in Religious History (Which I took in the Military as I figured it would be useful since the war was against a country governed by, Religion.).

I have been a Dev/Creative Consultant for several AAA Studios, I have worked For a Multi Billion Dollar Industrial and Resource Allocation Company, managing 6 facilities, and over 10,000 people.

I refer you to my earlier point about the king of Nigeria

Before you insult someone, and if you are going to insult someone, you should at least know a little about them, otherwise you just "look" stupid and like a fool.

Now you're insulting him again.

 

[Cody]

One thing I have noticed throughout all the opposition is that they are motivated by FEAR.

<chortles>