The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[Windscreen Smudge]

Then that's where guilders need to nut up. What make more sense:

a) argue for a year to get features added, having to bicker and convince everyone else to agree to what they want, then wait for it to actually be implemented

or b) using a third party program that's free, customizable, and provides most, if not all, of the features they want.

If these people are lazy (and therefore I assume don't use things like VoiceAttack or head tracking software or Shadowplay or anything else like that) then it's up to the people who want to make this happen to make it as easy and convenient as possible.

Come up with an ideal "guild" configuration, with whatever apps are needed already set up, and make it as close to "one-stop-shopping" as possible, rather than being overwhelmed with the idea of having to get a program and then the apps, etc...

Or, you know, they can stick with their nothing for the next year. That works too.


What I'm saying is, encourage people to be problem solvers. I wanted to feel like i was flying in a cockpit rather than a fixed forward viewscreen - I did not spend the last six months demanding that ED implement native head tracking recognition.

This situation is no different.

Guys, any time people bring up the idea of guild communication, mention Overwolf. Encourage them to look into it. And anyone who currently uses it and wants a guild? Why don't you come up with an "ideal" setup for it you can share to make things easier for potential users?

Let's be problem solvers, on both sides of the issue.

What makes more sense: Expecting the gaming community to bend to your will, or them jumping to the next available game that has the features they want, slated to be released next year™?

Frontier is a business. They have to compete. This oversight is giving the competition a strong advantage.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

These people have obviously never played a game of Rust. They have no idea how dark it can be. I came back to Elite after 3 months of that, it was like a relaxing holiday by the sea compared to that. Imagine, stuck in a metal box, whilst men in masks and nothing else pickaxe their way in, screaming obscenities and making vague cannibalistic threats. And they worry that guilds will be a problem in ED

 

[Stigbob]

<snip>

I'll try reading your post again once you've edited the quote's a little better.

 

[mossfoot]

What makes more sense: Expecting the gaming community to bend to your will, or them jumping to the next available game that has the features they want, slated to be released next year™?

Frontier is a business. They have to compete. This oversight is giving the competition a strong advantage.

Option A it is for you. Enjoy!

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Social behaviour within the group or with players outwith the group?

Both. Remember what I said about safety in numbers. If you don't feel threatened you are more likely to act passively.

- - - Updated - - -

Option A it is for you. Enjoy!

What a convenient answer for you.

Not a profitable answer for ED though.

 

[Asp Explorer]

This thread just gets better and better. The sooner a certain other game is released the better

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Benefits to whom, exactly? Again, "benefit" is another subjective term in this context. Much simpler to avoid all the problems by not implementing anything rather than not doing it "right".

I thought that Guilds were not going to cause any problems for non-Guild members? Was that mis-spoken as well?

"Much simpler to avoid all problems by not implementing anything" - Hehe, I am glad you are a forum moderator and not a developer xD - Better to do nothing at all then? By the same logic we probably would not have a game. We could just play FFE. It seems you are willfully trying to misunderstand the OP here. A guild member can cause a problem for a non-guild member in EXACTLY the same way any player can be a problem for any other player. All these people want is recognition of their alliance. I don't understand why the debate has been dragged through so many non-sequitures. Also, yes "benefit" is a subjective term in ALL contexts concerning individuals, so well done! However, I think by "benefit" the OP means that the player may receive a positive experience with another player group. Either way, i'm looking forward to when the professional Dev team at ED start implementing new social features over the coming years, and I am sure they will, with all their expertise and consumer feedback, give the WIDER PLAYER BASE what they want

 

[the100thmonkey]

If I was in a guild in ED
A fellow guildie could tell me about the awesome new trade route that he just found and I could earn credits faster than the route I am currently running. Some stranger is not likely to do that as you would deplete the route faster but a fellow guildie has an interest rising the guild up so would more than likely!

If I was in a guild a fellow guildie could have taken me under his wing and showed me how to do all the things in game that I had to go watch Youtube video's to learn, sometimes I had to sit through a 30 minute video just to find what I wanted to learn. For example it was a while before I learned how to pick a side on the right menu screen when entering a conflict zone.

If I was in a guild in ED and I screwed up like I did this morning. I bought a new power plant yesterday and I didn't have enough credits for a full cargo load, only 90% full. The plan was to do one short load and get the credits up enough for a rebuy then back to a full load. This morning I forgot that plan and I ran insurance free. It was a one jump trade run and all was ok but if it wasn't and I was in a guild guildies could loan me the credits to get my ship back.

If I was in a guild in Ed
I would have an Elite NPC combat expert in my guild that could give me pointers on the pros and cons of this weapon load out or that weapon load out for my Anaconda and we could do it in game in chat instead of reading opinions from strangers on the forum.

If I was in a guild the Elite trader in the guild could tell me which modules I should equip to get the best jump range out of my type 9.


None of that was if I was in a guild we could go and kill everyone else and ruin everyone's gameplay. It can be that but it doesn't have to be!

If I was in a guild a guildie could explain Power Play to me because I googled it and I cam up with a 40 slide slideshow and that's as far as I got. I was like wow that looks complicated blah

If I were in a guild, I wouldn't have to use my brain. Like EVAR.

 

[ianw]

This thread just gets better and better. The sooner a certain other game is released the better

Well they do have guilds and a "social module" coming!

The rest seems to be a rather lengthy WIP so far...

(don't mention the player slider... and I am a backer - I even joined a guild - the ED one - oh the shame!)

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

If I were in a guild, I wouldn't have to use my brain. Like EVAR.

See? Guilds are just there to facilitate the people who are already brainless.

 

[Asp Explorer]

See? Guilds are just there to facilitate the people who are already brainless.

I can agree there!

 

[mossfoot]

What a convenient answer for you.

Not a profitable answer for ED though.

I'm trying to help people solve a problem. I'm sure you think you are as well, but again, people who want this will have NOTHING for the next year, if ever.

FD is not blind to your calls for change - the devs have no doubt had tons of meetings about how much or how little will be implemented and when.

You really really REALLY aren't going to change anything here. It's either going to happen or it won't, but chances are that decision was made long ago and only tweaks to the final plan (if any) remain. So this whole trying to convince people thing is pointless. Seriously.

But you are pointing out concerns actual gamers have. And a solution that actually works right here and now has been pointed out.

So all I'm saying is focus your energy productively. Right now you're neither part of the solution or the problem. You, and everyone else here on either side of the issue, are background noise. Static. That's it.

But it doesn't have to be that way.

Again, I say, anyone here who actually wants to see guild functionality, focus on the tools you already have available to you and how to make them more accessible. How to encourage like minded gamers to use them. Make it a thing. That is a billion times more likely to create positive change in the direction you want than this rather pointless debate.

 

[Robert Maynard]

"Much simpler to avoid all problems by not implementing anything" - Hehe, I am glad you are a forum moderator and not a developer xD - Better to do nothing at all then? By the same logic we probably would not have a game. We could just play FFE. It seems you are willfully trying to misunderstand the OP here. A guild member can cause a problem for a non-guild member in EXACTLY the same way any player can be a problem for any other player. All these people want is recognition of their alliance. I don't understand why the debate has been dragged through so many non-sequitures. Also, yes "benefit" is a subjective term in ALL contexts concerning individuals, so well done! However, I think by "benefit" the OP means that the player may receive a positive experience with another player group. Either way, i'm looking forward to when the professional Dev team at ED start implementing new social features over the coming years, and I am sure they will, with all their expertise and consumer feedback, give the WIDER PLAYER BASE what they want

Indeed you may be that I'm not - although participating in the DDF was an interesting experience.

While the intrinsic mechanisms whereby a Guild member can cause a problem for a non-guild member are the same, depending on how far shared assets / bank / ships went in the hypothetical implementation, the Guild member would not necessarily suffer as badly financially in the event of a ship loss - especially if they were on Guild business.

I can understand the need for recognition - we have that now for Powerplay affiliates - their Power is displayed along with their name and ship type when scanned. Maybe that's all Frontier will offer - some social features as part of Powerplay / player sponsored Minor Faction to Power gameplay.

It will be interesting indeed if Frontier take notice of this debate and what, if anything, they introduce on the back of it.

Regarding the wider player base - how do we know what they want?

 

[Asp Explorer]

I know! Let's start a poll!

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

I'm trying to help people solve a problem. I'm sure you think you are as well, but again, people who want this will have NOTHING for the next year, if ever.

FD is not blind to your calls for change - the devs have no doubt had tons of meetings about how much or how little will be implemented and when.

You really really REALLY aren't going to change anything here. It's either going to happen or it won't, but chances are that decision was made long ago and only tweaks to the final plan (if any) remain. So this whole trying to convince people thing is pointless. Seriously.

But you are pointing out concerns actual gamers have. And a solution that actually works right here and now has been pointed out.

So all I'm saying is focus your energy productively. Right now you're neither part of the solution or the problem. You, and everyone else here on either side of the issue, are background noise. Static. That's it.

But it doesn't have to be that way.

Again, I say, anyone here who actually wants to see guild functionality, focus on the tools you already have available to you and how to make them more accessible. How to encourage like minded gamers to use them. Make it a thing. That is a billion times more likely to create positive change in the direction you want than this rather pointless debate.

You're trying to solve the problem for people, when it's not people that have the problem. Solve it for Frontier.

 

[Dejay]

I've advocated for more guild based gameplay since the beginning. The game definitely needs more cooperative group missions. Missions that automatically scale to the number of players and their equipment / skill level. Essentially procedurally generated raids for groups. And a group / guild chat. Building communities is just basic MMO design that has been validated over and over again.

 

[Bacalao]

An anallegory on the discussion of to guild or not to guild. By a codfish.

So having followed the last half of this thread, I would sum up the argument for guilds in Elite Dangerous using Taco Bell and Mom&Pop's (a generic diner that is fairly unique on the market) as an example. In this example Mom&Pop's is a guildless Elite Dangerous and Taco Bell is every other game with guilds.

The proponents for large player controlled groups will be known as GP, "guild proponents". OG will be playing the part of "other guy", someone happening on this thread trying to understand, OG is generally satisfied with the way the player grouping system and game as a whole is now, while looking forward to future improvments.


GP: We really want to turn that Mom&Pop's into a Taco Bell.
OG: But why? Aren't there like 6 other Taco Bells on this one block alone? Plus Mom&Pop's is really good, and they keep adding awesome menu items.
GP: Yeah, but those Taco Bells all gave us heartburn but they have way more customers and are way more successful.
OG: But....what? Wouldn't Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell just give you heart burn too.
GP: I didn't hear what you said, Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell would make so much more money than now and have so many more customers!
OG: But, it wouldn't be Mom&Pop's anymore, plus it would give everyone who wants to eat at Mom&Pop's heart burn if they keep eating there, plus you wouldn't be able to get what you can now out of it.
GP: I didn't hear what you said, Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell would make so much more money than now and have so many more customers!
OG: ......
GP: Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell would make so much more money than now and have so many more customers!
OG: Okay, but I don't want it because I like what Mom&Pop's have now, it doesn't give me heartburn and Mom & Pop are making the food they really love!
GP: They'd make so much more money as a Taco Bell though.
OG: But then we'd all get heart burn and there wouldn't be a Mom&Pop's anymore!
GP: Yeah but Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell would be so good and it would make so much more money and be so much more successful! Here's a bunch of research showing that people love Taco Bell and if you don't eat a bunch of the stuff on the menu then you might not get heartburn. It'll still be a restaurant, you can still get food there, it won't change.
OG: But there is a good chance I'll still get heartburn, I mean, it's a certainty that if I keep eating the food I will eventually get it, likely frequently given the track record of the other Taco Bells, and I want the kind of food they have now, it's super good and it's what Mom & Pop have dreamt of doing for years!
GP: Yeah but Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell would make so much more money! Don't be paranoid!
OG: But I ate at a Taco Bell and didn't get any of the stuff that was supposed to give me heartburn and I still got heartburn, it really put me off Taco Bell so I came to eat at Mom&Pop's.
GP: Oh my goodness, stop being paranoid, here's a bunch of research showing that people love Taco Bell and if you don't eat a bunch of the stuff on the menu then you might not get heartburn, plus it makes way more money.
OG: But me and all my friends had the same experience with getting heartburn, plus what about Mom&Pop's food, where will I get that.
GP: You're being paranoid, just don't eat those things, it's all peaches and sunshine. Plus Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell will make so much more money and be so much more successful. Trust me I ate at Taco Bell for years, it gave me terrible heartburn, but I've worked in restaurants forever and Mom&Pop's turned Taco bell will make so much money and be so successful!
OG: Can you hear yourself?
GP: Mom and Pop's turned Taco Bell will make so much money and be so much more successful!

It's at this point that OG leaves shaking his head, feeling confused and exasperated when AOG "another other guy" comes in and the cycle repeats itself.

The end.

 

[david6768]

If I were in a guild, I wouldn't have to use my brain. Like EVAR.

Thank you for your well thought out, thought provoking argument.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

So having followed the last half of this thread, I would sum up the argument for guilds in Elite Dangerous using Taco Bell and Mom&Pop's (a generic diner that is fairly unique on the market) as an example. In this example Mom&Pop's is a guildless Elite Dangerous and Taco Bell is every other game with guilds.

The proponents for large player controlled groups will be known as GP, "guild proponents". OG will be playing the part of "other guy", someone happening on this thread trying to understand, OG is generally satisfied with the way the player grouping system and game as a whole is now, while looking forward to future improvments.


GP: We really want to turn that Mom&Pop's into a Taco Bell.
OG: But why? Aren't there like 6 other Taco Bells on this one block alone? Plus Mom&Pop's is really good, and they keep adding awesome menu items.
GP: Yeah, but those Taco Bells all gave us heartburn but they have way more customers and are way more successful.
OG: But....what? Wouldn't Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell just give you heart burn too.
GP: I didn't hear what you said, Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell would make so much more money than now and have so many more customers!
OG: But, it wouldn't be Mom&Pop's anymore, plus it would give everyone who wants to eat at Mom&Pop's heart burn if they keep eating there, plus you wouldn't be able to get what you can now out of it.
GP: I didn't hear what you said, Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell would make so much more money than now and have so many more customers!
OG: ......
GP: Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell would make so much more money than now and have so many more customers!
OG: Okay, but I don't want it because I like what Mom&Pop's have now, it doesn't give me heartburn and Mom & Pop are making the food they really love!
GP: They'd make so much more money as a Taco Bell though.
OG: But then we'd all get heart burn and there wouldn't be a Mom&Pop's anymore!
GP: Yeah but Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell would be so good and it would make so much more money and be so much more successful! Here's a bunch of research showing that people love Taco Bell and if you don't eat a bunch of the stuff on the menu then you might not get heartburn. It'll still be a restaurant, you can still get food there, it won't change.
OG: But there is a good chance I'll still get heartburn, I mean, it's a certainty that if I keep eating the food I will eventually get it, likely frequently given the track record of the other Taco Bells, and I want the kind of food they have now, it's super good and it's what Mom & Pop have dreamt of doing for years!
GP: Yeah but Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell would make so much more money! Don't be paranoid!
OG: But I ate at a Taco Bell and didn't get any of the stuff that was supposed to give me heartburn and I still got heartburn, it really put me off Taco Bell so I came to eat at Mom&Pop's.
GP: Oh my goodness, stop being paranoid, here's a bunch of research showing that people love Taco Bell and if you don't eat a bunch of the stuff on the menu then you might not get heartburn, plus it makes way more money.
OG: But me and all my friends had the same experience with getting heartburn, plus what about Mom&Pop's food, where will I get that.
GP: You're being paranoid, just don't eat those things, it's all peaches and sunshine. Plus Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell will make so much more money and be so much more successful. Trust me I ate at Taco Bell for years, it gave me terrible heartburn, but I've worked in restaurants forever and Mom&Pop's turned Taco bell will make so much money and be so successful!
OG: Can you hear yourself?
GP: Mom and Pop's turned Taco Bell will make so much money and be so much more successful!

It's at this point that OG leaves shaking his head, feeling confused and exasperated when AOG "another other guy" comes in and the cycle repeats itself.

The end.

A lack of guilds in no way makes ED unique. Guilds will in no way homogenize the gaming experience. Adding social tools won't suddenly turn combat into Target the tank and mash 1 to heal.

I'm sorry that you had to type all of that for nothing, but it was really pointless.

If you want an analogy try something along the lines of "This car lot over here is selling cars with 3 wheels and you're supposed to provide the fourth, and that lot over there has cars with 4 wheels."

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

" although participating in the DDF was an interesting experience."

It is good that they include lower ranked members of staff at such important functions. What a great company it must be to work for

" the Guild member would not necessarily suffer as badly financially in the event of a ship loss"

Well that is unfortunate, but then that is hardly a game breaker. What if two players gang up on someone, they are twice as likely to win. Should that not be balanced, or is that not just the danger of space. Besides, this "feature" you discuss has nothing to do with groups of players making their alliance known.

"Regarding the wider player base - how do we know what they want?"

Using polls, like the one above, and the one on reddit. Or market research, like FD must have spent many pounds on this kind of activity.

- - - Updated - - -

So having followed the last half of this thread, I would sum up the argument for guilds in Elite Dangerous using Taco Bell and Mom&Pop's (a generic diner that is fairly unique on the market) as an example. In this example Mom&Pop's is a guildless Elite Dangerous and Taco Bell is every other game with guilds.

The proponents for large player controlled groups will be known as GP, "guild proponents". OG will be playing the part of "other guy", someone happening on this thread trying to understand, OG is generally satisfied with the way the player grouping system and game as a whole is now, while looking forward to future improvments.


GP: We really want to turn that Mom&Pop's into a Taco Bell.
OG: But why? Aren't there like 6 other Taco Bells on this one block alone? Plus Mom&Pop's is really good, and they keep adding awesome menu items.
GP: Yeah, but those Taco Bells all gave us heartburn but they have way more customers and are way more successful.
OG: But....what? Wouldn't Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell just give you heart burn too.
GP: I didn't hear what you said, Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell would make so much more money than now and have so many more customers!
OG: But, it wouldn't be Mom&Pop's anymore, plus it would give everyone who wants to eat at Mom&Pop's heart burn if they keep eating there, plus you wouldn't be able to get what you can now out of it.
GP: I didn't hear what you said, Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell would make so much more money than now and have so many more customers!
OG: ......
GP: Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell would make so much more money than now and have so many more customers!
OG: Okay, but I don't want it because I like what Mom&Pop's have now, it doesn't give me heartburn and Mom & Pop are making the food they really love!
GP: They'd make so much more money as a Taco Bell though.
OG: But then we'd all get heart burn and there wouldn't be a Mom&Pop's anymore!
GP: Yeah but Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell would be so good and it would make so much more money and be so much more successful! Here's a bunch of research showing that people love Taco Bell and if you don't eat a bunch of the stuff on the menu then you might not get heartburn. It'll still be a restaurant, you can still get food there, it won't change.
OG: But there is a good chance I'll still get heartburn, I mean, it's a certainty that if I keep eating the food I will eventually get it, likely frequently given the track record of the other Taco Bells, and I want the kind of food they have now, it's super good and it's what Mom & Pop have dreamt of doing for years!
GP: Yeah but Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell would make so much more money! Don't be paranoid!
OG: But I ate at a Taco Bell and didn't get any of the stuff that was supposed to give me heartburn and I still got heartburn, it really put me off Taco Bell so I came to eat at Mom&Pop's.
GP: Oh my goodness, stop being paranoid, here's a bunch of research showing that people love Taco Bell and if you don't eat a bunch of the stuff on the menu then you might not get heartburn, plus it makes way more money.
OG: But me and all my friends had the same experience with getting heartburn, plus what about Mom&Pop's food, where will I get that.
GP: You're being paranoid, just don't eat those things, it's all peaches and sunshine. Plus Mom&Pop's turned Taco Bell will make so much more money and be so much more successful. Trust me I ate at Taco Bell for years, it gave me terrible heartburn, but I've worked in restaurants forever and Mom&Pop's turned Taco bell will make so much money and be so successful!
OG: Can you hear yourself?
GP: Mom and Pop's turned Taco Bell will make so much money and be so much more successful!

It's at this point that OG leaves shaking his head, feeling confused and exasperated when AOG "another other guy" comes in and the cycle repeats itself.

The end.

So basically, massive strawman argument.