The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[Robert Maynard]

Then your next line of reasoning would be to ask why no MMO's within recent history were created without social tools.

.... because no major publisher is brave enough to create a game without them as they are fairly conservative and want to include features which their marketing people tell them will sell?

 

[Malpherian]

In other words "all concerns against guilds are invalid silliness and both you and FD are stupid for having them because we found studies". Of course any of us having a sour taste in our mouth or completely satisfied with the game structure as is are just imagining it all and are paranoid weirdos. Glad that is settled.

I work in analytical chemistry, it's a "hard" science, half the crap published is still just speculative crap some other guy is going to "disprove" shortly, anything related to social psychology is orders of magnitude more speculative, hardly proof.

the issue is far more about player controlled and independent organization. Pretend powerplay or "Mobius" are a guild.....(still makes me laugh)....all you want, it's no more a guild to be involved in powerplay than to be in a guild because you play Horde.

I am unsure how you iterated such a negative assumption of what he was talking about from that post..... I didn't get that at all from it.

All he said in TLDR form was this:

* Anti Guilders have not presented evidence to back their case.

* Pro-Guild Union has present multiple forms of evidence to back the case "For" guilds.

* He is pretty Sure FD is not perfect and is capable of making mistakes, and hey, aren't we all?.

-----

Not really sure how you got the gibbity jibberish you explicitly went on about in a tantrum in your post from that..... Just saying

 

[Stigbob]

No, it's not an opinion, it's proven. Games with active social elements not only have better player environments but remain active longer. Point out one other MMO within the last decade, successful or not, that has not had social groups. When you go back 2 decades to find the dinosaurs that did have them, you'll find they died young.

Proof. Prove to me that Tens of millions of people around the world actively engage in guilds despite it being a detriment to their experience.

Again you give an opinion and call it proof, it's still just your opinion.

Why is EVE losing subscribers if they are following the one true mandatory MMO path ?.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

But that isn't as fun as being in charge of a bunch of anonymous kids on the internet, is it? Add in a title to boot and the ability to make rules! I knew a kid who set up a "club" so we could all "play" together when I was 10 or so, you can guess how that went. I very much doubt it is about banding together for a common purpose, the game has plenty of that without the need to give disproportionate amounts of control/influence over game assets and other players to individuals.

Are you honestly admitting that some vague childhood experience means you cannot play in guilds, and that no one else should either? Is this the actual argument you are bringing to this forum? They are not asking for a controlling share of Frontier Developments, and they are not a bunch of 10 year olds lol. This only HURTS your cause..

 

[SiriusSeven]

.... because no major publisher is brave enough to create a game without them as they are fairly conservative and want to include features which their marketing people tell them will sell?

s/brave/arrogant/g

 

[Robert Maynard]

Not really sure how you got the gibbity jibberish you explicitly went on about in a tantrum in your post from that..... Just saying

Note to all participants: Please cease and desist with comments on the author of the post and concentrate on the content of the post. Failure to comply with this not unreasonable request will result in the thread being closed for a time to review the thread for potential transgressions with respect to the Forum Rules.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

.... because no major publisher is brave enough to create a game without them as they are fairly conservative and want to include features which their marketing people tell them will sell?

That's a guess with no viable evidence to support it. It's not about what marketing tells them will sell, MMOs typically have lengthy Betas. ED's was almost 8 months. During that time players tell them what they like and do not like, want and do not want. Through this process no MMO has yet to be created without guilds.

 

[Mohrgan]

Then your next line of reasoning would be to ask why no MMO's within recent history were created without social tools.

Because most releases are made to be just like the rest. FD has staked out a whole new outlook. The path for player groups is Elite will go through minor factions, and the BGS. Along the way most players posting in this thread have gotten behind improved communications tools. Let's see what FD offer on the subject in the coming weeks. I'm confident that FD can thread this needle.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Again you give an opinion and call it proof, it's still just your opinion.

Why is EVE losing subscribers if they are following the one true mandatory MMO path ?.

You know, EVE is more than just a guild. It is a whole game that people have played for over a decade. If EVE is losing subscribers, it is because the industry is moving away from the subscription based model. Not because of guilds lol. Are they just the eternal boogeyman now #GuildsStoleMyShoe

 

[Stigbob]

I understand quite a few of the anti-guilders previously had hoped this game stayed singleplayer upon release, which it didn't. Now, the closest you have to avoiding any social contact is playing solo which is fine I suppose, but please don't try to drown the rest of us in your social anxiety while hiding behind the guise of game design.

Isn't safety in numbers a big pro for the guildies ?.

If you read over the thread you'll see a lot of people arguing against guilds are Mobius members. Mobius is a very social group, that's its point.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Again you give an opinion and call it proof, it's still just your opinion.

Why is EVE losing subscribers if they are following the one true mandatory MMO path ?.

Because they're screwing up their core gameplay in a huge way, and not listening to the player base when they tell them that things are broken and need to be fixed. They are literally ripping the guts out of the game. Next question?

 

[Robert Maynard]

That's a guess with no viable evidence to support it. It's not about what marketing tells them will sell, MMOs typically have lengthy Betas. ED's was almost 8 months. During that time players tell them what they like and do not like, want and do not want. Through this process no MMO has yet to be created without guilds.

Except this one, of course.

.... and don't forget that Alpha ran from December 2013.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Because they're screwing up their core gameplay in a huge way, and not listening to the player base when they tell them that things are broken and need to be fixed. They are literally ripping the guts out of the game. Next question?

In your opinion. My next question - smooth or crunchy peanut butter?

 

[Stigbob]

You know, EVE is more than just a guild. It is a whole game that people have played for over a decade. If EVE is losing subscribers, it is because the industry is moving away from the subscription based model. Not because of guilds lol. Are they just the eternal boogeyman now #GuildsStoleMyShoe

Or its because they catered to guilds (and the toxic aspects of guilds) and other potential customers stayed away.

 

[ianw]

And people have been asking for guilds since kickstarter - still no guilds. The game is selling well without them and it's still nowhere near finished.

 

[Mohrgan]

That's a guess with no viable evidence to support it. It's not about what marketing tells them will sell, MMOs typically have lengthy Betas. ED's was almost 8 months. During that time players tell them what they like and do not like, want and do not want. Through this process no MMO has yet to be created without guilds.

There is evidence why FD has not included a guild mechanic. Mr. Braben is mistrustful of their influence on a game. There is footage of him saying so. I would suggest that the coming minor faction approach is more evidence that the classic implementation of a guild mechanic is not desired by FD.

 

[Malpherian]

.... because no major publisher is brave enough to create a game without them as they are fairly conservative and want to include features which their marketing people tell them will sell?

Isealy, I honestly wish this were the case, but unfortunately, Plenty of other games have tried, repeatedly.. and failed. As was pointed out earlier. It's not like FD is the first "Scion of the Bastion, Leader of the Guild-less Games and Conqueror of the MMO reform"--- Cough...

No there were plenty before ED that tried, and all of them without exception had to drop into almost needing to file bankruptcy and losing their company before they relented and added guilds. Some.. well.. some didn't make it anyway.

It has nothing to do with being brave. It has everything to do with what people will buy and invest in. This is an MMO, period. If it does not start displaying the features, and the types of interests it's consumers and Investors want to see (within a reasonable amount of time whatever that may be), they will pull out. Period. That's a fact of the Industry, and the market.

So while I applaud ED for it's bravery:

- If they go out in a blaze of glory.. (More likely a turning off of the lights and a flip of a switch to shut the server down), they wont be the first, nor the last.

- Or maybe they keep their Small fan base and struggle on failing to make any real headway with sales because they do not offer the main feature of an MMO, limping through the 10 year plan in Obscurity as a C listed game for 9.99 on steam.... Great, They wont be the first, nor the last to do that either (Even in this Genre).

But knowing Brandon.. I seriously doubt that is the case. In fact I'd say all this new stuff in that thread the other guy posted is leading up to their inclusion. He's a smart man, I'm sure he's noticed the trends and whats popular and what isn't. And it's his job to make the game, Make money. Sure he'll obviously try every scenario and creative stand in he can to honor the fans and whatnot. And hey maybe one of them will work (You never know). But if they Don't ED will have Guilds. Because that is what the consumers want in an MMO, and that is what will increase sales and population.

 

[Raile]

And people have been asking for guilds since kickstarter - still no guilds. The game is selling well without them and it's still nowhere near finished.

A lot of people probably assumed it was an unsaid feature, much like how you don't advertise that the game has music or the ability to access the options menu.

 

[Bacalao]

Are you honestly admitting that some vague childhood experience means you cannot play in guilds, and that no one else should either? Is this the actual argument you are bringing to this forum? They are not asking for a controlling share of Frontier Developments, and they are not a bunch of 10 year olds lol. This only HURTS your cause..

Yes, that is the end all be all of all my feelings and emotional development.

I am unsure how you iterated such a negative assumption of what he was talking about from that post..... I didn't get that at all from it.

All he said in TLDR form was this:

* Anti Guilders have not presented evidence to back their case.

* Pro-Guild Union has present multiple forms of evidence to back the case "For" guilds.

* He is pretty Sure FD is not perfect and is capable of making mistakes, and hey, aren't we all?.

-----

Not really sure how you got the gibbity jibberish you explicitly went on about in a tantrum in your post from that..... Just saying

His post discarded pages of opinion, well presented and not so well in some cases, out of hand and went on to call the people who held those opinions stupid. How is that not a boat of negativity?

"Horde"? Is the best analogy you can come up with? No. Powerplay isn't picking red vs. blue, but that was a nice try.

How did I get negativity out of a post discarding pages of opinion (as valid as any of yours) out of hand and calling people and the way they think "stupid"? I have no idea? If that was a tantrum I have a 3, 5 and 6 year old I'd like to introduce you too, but I don't think your delicate sensibilities could handle it.


No, it's not an opinion, it's proven. Games with active social elements not only have better player environments but remain active longer. Point out one other MMO within the last decade, successful or not, that has not had social groups. When you go back 2 decades to find the dinosaurs that did have them, you'll find they died young.

Proof. Prove to me that Tens of millions of people around the world actively engage in guilds despite it being a detriment to their experience.

<snip>


Do you guys not read? I mean really? You keep posting as if no one has presented, in almost 3000 posts, any kind of rebuttal or opinion as valid as yours (which yours is just opinion, backed by whatever research whichever special interest group paid for or whatever, doesn't change the hole it's coming from or the scent it carries).

In the end you think there should be guilds, in the end a lot of us don't, right now FD think they don't. Your "proof" is as valid as our experience. Try to redefine whatever element you can in the game to make it appear as if guilds exist in an attempt to get a foot in the door, but the wool you're using isn't thick enough. Try harder, maybe use more colors?

 

[Robert Maynard]

It has nothing to do with being brave. It has everything to do with what people will buy and invest in. This is an MMO, period. If it does not start displaying the features, and the types of interests it's consumers and Investors want to see (within a reasonable amount of time whatever that may be), they will pull out. Period. That's a fact of the Industry, and the market.

So while I applaud ED for it's bravery:

- If they go out in a blaze of glory.. (More likely a turning off of the lights and a flip of a switch to shut the server down), they wont be the first, nor the last.

- Or maybe they keep their Small fan base and struggle on failing to make any real headway with sales because they do not offer the main feature of an MMO, limping through the 10 year plan in Obscurity as a C listed game for 9.99 on steam.... Great, They wont be the first, nor the last to do that either (Even in this Genre).

You do know that the majority shareholder with c.53% of the shares is the very same DBOBE who expressed reservations about the behaviour of large player groups in the EGX:2014 Q&A?