The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

Guilds and Player Owned Stations

  • Guilds and limited player-owned stations

    Votes: 788 54.4%
  • No guilds or player owned stations

    Votes: 506 34.9%
  • Guilds but no limited player-owned stations

    Votes: 155 10.7%

  • Total voters
    1,449
  • Poll closed .
Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
How about Guy sees cool looking game, checks to see if game has social structures and guilds before buying, See game says it supports group functions and Wings (Advertised misleadingly as guilds). Buys game, Discovers game has 0 social support functions and no guilds, Guy heads to forum and posts about the game needing more social features and structures, guy gets flamed by anti guild players, who purchased an MMO not realizing MMO means Massively Multiplayer Online, Not Massively single player online with co-op support.....

That work?

Who's in the wrong,

- The guy who bought the game because it was advertised to have groups, and social structure support only to find it it doesn't, and groups loosely translates out of game useless list of friends?

Or

- The guy who bought an MMO thinking it was a single player with Co-Op, and gets upset when people mention the game needs more social support for it to function properly as an MMO (Which is what it is)?


The available material leads each of us to different conclusions. I saw a game oriented to the lone player. You saw a game offering player interaction. We are both right. I just hope FD keeps making content that is accessible to all. So far they have created a galaxy that allows people a multitude of ways to enjoy. They are even offering players who wish to group up a feature where their groups can be directly integrated into the BGS. In this instance, everyone can be right.

MMO has so many meanings to some many people that it should be tossed into the bin along with the words: Bug(gged), Immersion and emergent. They are just buzz words used in attempts to get undue attention.
 
Guild mode has been suggested many many times, alas the comeback is always the same - if you don't like Guilds in open, play solo. See the thing is Guilds need Open, they need the non-aligned Commanders to be around as targets, err customers. Same reason why having the Guilds out in the far uninhabitable reaches of the Galaxy isn't looked about favourably, who would they umm 'interact' with!

Your realize your post makes no sense yea?

Guilds want to play in open because they are a support feature for the MMO branch of the game. A guild mode is all well and good, if you already have a guild with people in it. If you don't (You want to create one), then a guild mode is useless, who would you recruit, how would you grow? This is not 1995 where in game guild functions are taboo and not heard of. It's 2015 where the vast majority of MMO's not only have some sort of guild feature but Robust and in depth guild features, and the other MMO's at least have "Some Sort of Guild Features". In addition the Guild Functions themselves provide a lot of content, a Tag, Livery (Guild Colors) and other aspects which "Everyone" should have access to, not just Guilds themselves. Anyone, should be able to create and form a guild if they want. It's content everyone deserves to be able to experience, if they choose to.

Not to mention when A Guild owns a station, puts custom missions in it, Crafts ships and weapons to sell to people in it etc, If you want Guilds to be completely separate in a guild mode, You also lose these functions if you are NOT guided and not playing in guild mode. Which is against the goals of the Pro guilders, as we want everyone to be able to experience the content created by guilds and everyone should have the choice "To do so" or not. Not be forced by a special mode and segregated.

Open mode means just that, "OPEN" which means full access to all content, unrestrained and unrestricted. Yet you want to restrict people who want to play with guilds to their own private segregated mode? If you don't like playing in Open, go to group mode or solo mode, it's that simple.
 
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Your realize your post makes no sense yea?

Guilds want to play in open because they are a support feature for the MMO branch of the game. A guild mode is all well and good, if you already have a guild with people in it. If you don't (You want to create one), then a guild mode is useless, who would you recruit, how would you grow? This is not 1995 where in game guild functions are taboo and not heard of. It's 2015 where the vast majority of MMO's not only have some sort of guild feature but Robust and in depth guild features, and the other MMO's at least have "Some Sort of Guild Features". In addition the Guild Functions themselves provide a lot of content, a Tag, Livery (Guild Colors) and other aspects which "Everyone" should have access to, not just Guilds themselves. Anyone, should be able to create and form a guild if they want. It's content everyone deserves to be able to experience, if they choose to.

Not to mention when A Guild owns a station, puts custom missions in it, Crafts ships and weapons to sell to people in it etc, If you want Guilds to be completely separate in a guild mode, You also lose these functions if you are NOT guided and not playing in guild mode. Which is against the goals of the Pro guilders, as we want everyone to be able to experience the content created by guilds and everyone should have the choice "To do so" or not. Not be forced by a special mode and segregated.

Open mode means just that, "OPEN" which means full access to all content, unrestrained and unrestricted. Yet you want to restrict people who want to play with guilds to their own private segregated mode? If you don't like playing in Open, go to group mode or solo mode, it's that simple.

First, my friend, there's this:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=65

Second, much lulz were had. Thankyou!

Third, it's not for you or anyone else to determine for a player if they play in Solo or Group or Open. That is their choice alone.
 
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Your realize your post makes no sense yea?

Guilds want to play in open because they are a support feature for the MMO branch of the game. A guild mode is all well and good, if you already have a guild with people in it. If you don't (You want to create one), then a guild mode is useless, who would you recruit, how would you grow? This is not 1995 where in game guild functions are taboo and not heard of. It's 2015 where the vast majority of MMO's not only have some sort of guild feature but Robust and in depth guild features, and the other MMO's at least have "Some Sort of Guild Features". In addition the Guild Functions themselves provide a lot of content, a Tag, Livery (Guild Colors) and other aspects which "Everyone" should have access to, not just Guilds themselves. Anyone, should be able to create and form a guild if they want. It's content everyone deserves to be able to experience,k if they choose to.

Not to mention when A Guild owns a station, puts custom missions in it, Crafts ships and weapons to sell to people in it etc, If you want Guilds to be completely separate in a guild mode, You also lose these functions if you are NOT guided and not playing in guild mode. Which is against the goals of the Pro guilders, as we want everyone to be able to experience the content created by guilds and everyone should have the choice "To do so" or not. Not be forced by a special mode and segregated.

Open mode means just that, "OPEN" which means full access to all content, unrestrained and unrestricted. Yet you want to restrict people who want to play with guilds to their own private segregated mode? If you don't like playing in Open, go to group mode or solo mode, it's that simple.

Wow, never realised I was that stupid not to see the LIGHT!

The thing is, and I am typing this slowly, is there already is a type of Guild you are talking about - it is called FD. They are the ones who create the missions, they are the ones who sell all the commodities, the modules, the ships. They are the ones who own the stations. WE DON'T NEED GUILDS.

Seriously, you are hell bent on turning Elite into another game just to suit yourself. Have you ever considered you may be wrong, not everyone wants to play that other game. Not everyone want to have to deal with a bunch of egotistical empire building wantabes sitting in their parents basement. The line you so wonderfully highlighted, cos I must be vision impaired or something, is right, Open is free to all. Even you have admitted that if guilds were introduced that would cease.

Please, report back to the other game and advise them you have failed, maybe you can start on the SC or NMS forums next.
 
The available material leads each of us to different conclusions. I saw a game oriented to the lone player. You saw a game offering player interaction. We are both right. I just hope FD keeps making content that is accessible to all. So far they have created a galaxy that allows people a multitude of ways to enjoy. They are even offering players who wish to group up a feature where their groups can be directly integrated into the BGS. In this instance, everyone can be right.

MMO has so many meanings to some many people that it should be tossed into the bin along with the words: Bug(gged), Immersion and emergent. They are just buzz words used in attempts to get undue attention.


Actually, those words have very specific Definitions when used concerning games:

MMO:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_game

A massively multiplayer online game (MMO or MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played over a network, such as the Internet.[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_game#cite_note-1"][1][/URL] MMOs usually have at least one persistent world, however some games differ. These games can be found for most network-capable platforms, including the personal computer, video game console, or smartphones and other mobile devices.

MMOGs enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world. They include a variety of gameplay types, representing many video game genres.


Emergent:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergent_gameplay

Because I'm not going to paste the whole page. But Keynotes are:

* Player Controlled Economies
* In game tools which players can use to create their own content or situations which create content due to them simply existing (IE, Guilds, the Ability to Control Space, Player owned structures etc)
* In Game Events and Triggers, which set off previously unknown scenerios that effect the entire player base and game.
* Etc


Immersion:

http://www.psychologyofgames.com/2010/07/the-psychology-of-immersion-in-video-games/

In Short:

The ability of the game to make the user feel like they are actually in it, and what they do actually matters in the game world.
 
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Your realize your post makes no sense yea?

Guilds want to play in open because they are a support feature for the MMO branch of the game. A guild mode is all well and good, if you already have a guild with people in it. If you don't (You want to create one), then a guild mode is useless, who would you recruit, how would you grow? This is not 1995 where in game guild functions are taboo and not heard of. It's 2015 where the vast majority of MMO's not only have some sort of guild feature but Robust and in depth guild features, and the other MMO's at least have "Some Sort of Guild Features". In addition the Guild Functions themselves provide a lot of content, a Tag, Livery (Guild Colors) and other aspects which "Everyone" should have access to, not just Guilds themselves. Anyone, should be able to create and form a guild if they want. It's content everyone deserves to be able to experience, if they choose to.

Not to mention when A Guild owns a station, puts custom missions in it, Crafts ships and weapons to sell to people in it etc, If you want Guilds to be completely separate in a guild mode, You also lose these functions if you are NOT guided and not playing in guild mode. Which is against the goals of the Pro guilders, as we want everyone to be able to experience the content created by guilds and everyone should have the choice "To do so" or not. Not be forced by a special mode and segregated.

Open mode means just that, "OPEN" which means full access to all content, unrestrained and unrestricted. Yet you want to restrict people who want to play with guilds to their own private segregated mode? If you don't like playing in Open, go to group mode or solo mode, it's that simple.

Shouldn't we be focusing on the actual way player groups are being integrated into the game, rather that harp on this old tired model of empire building. FD are planning a feature that would put player groups right into the BSG. Right into the heart of how this game works, yet you seem driven to recreate someone else's vision. What you are asking for is just the same old offerings you see in every F2P game you can download. Let's move ahead to the plan that seems to be coming.

Dwelling on the features that every game has, even though the Dev's have a different approach is completely counterproductive. Get the info on how integration with minor factions will be done. Consider the ways you can meet your goals with the framework that has already been mentioned. Look to the future, instead of calling for the past.
 
Here. Exactly.



Almost 200 posts ago. This thread moves quickly so I'll forgive you for not noticing.
No, I was talking about exactly those links - I read them all. I refer you back to the Dilbert comic you were linked to earlier, especially the last pane.

Not one of those links talks about how guilds improve games - the four links from the one source (where the original articles he wrote are no longer available) talk about:
  1. how guilds attract, recruit and lose players;
  2. how -- criminally briefly! -- fairness is constructed in video-game communities (key quote for those participating in this thread: "Fairness is a judgment, and we know that judgments can be radically different depending on how the situation is framed or presented.");
  3. how playing co-operative or competitive games influences people:s moral decision-making outside of games, and
  4. how anonymity and normative pressure from perceived role implied by the kinds of clothes people are given in a role-play influenced their behaviour in the role-play (although "The same logic applies to the gaming world." is not a particularly promising argument.

The academic-looking paper (which actually seems to be a paper derived from a presentation) is a position paper arguing for the use of norms as an analytical tool to understand certain aspects of gamer behaviour.

If you think those links support the contention tha guilds are a positive force in games (for the record, I don't believe the links do that), you're going to have to put together an argument attempting to show it. I think that's a big stretch given the quality of the evidence you've given.

Find another argument.

*EDIT*

For the record (again), I'm in a player faction. I'm in one because I like playing with other people. My main contention with the posts claiming psychology proves a position is that they pretty much universally misunderstand the purpose of the papers cited, or have been cobbled together from teriary sources that don't even support the position being put forward. Furthermore, arguing about whether guilds are good for the game or not is academic (as a synonym for "practicaly irrelevant") because guilds exist in Elite: dangerous already. The real discussion to be had is whether certain changes to game mechanics which have been put forward by the people claiming guilds to be a positive/necessity for the game would actually work.
 
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Actually, those words have very specific Definitions when used concerning games:

MMO:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_game

A massively multiplayer online game (MMO or MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played over a network, such as the Internet.[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_game#cite_note-1"][1][/URL] MMOs usually have at least one persistent world, however some games differ. These games can be found for most network-capable platforms, including the personal computer, video game console, or smartphones and other mobile devices.

MMOGs enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world. They include a variety of gameplay types, representing many video game genres.


Emergent:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergent_gameplay

Because I'm not going to paste the whole page. But Keynotes are:

* Player Controlled Economies
* In game tools which players can use to create their own content or situations which create content due to them simply existing (IE, Guilds, the Ability to Control Space, Player owned structures etc)
* In Game Events and Triggers, which set off previously unknown scenerios that effect the entire player base and game.
* Etc


Immersion:

http://www.psychologyofgames.com/2010/07/the-psychology-of-immersion-in-video-games/

In Short:

The ability of the game to make the user feel like they are actually in it, and what they do actually matters in the game world.


Beating a Dead Horse:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=beating+a+dead+horse

* If something is already done and over with there is no point in still talking about it.
 
Actually, those words have very specific Definitions when used concerning games:

MMO:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_game

<snipped for brevity>
The ability fo the game to make the user feel like they are actually in it, and what they do actually matters in the game world.


Hitting up the old Wikipedia as a source. Awesome.

MMO: Your first definition Elite meets. It has all of the points listed in the definition. That's done. The second part has the word 'can' written into it and 'sometimes' right there as well. These are not exactly ringing endorsements of your stance. To me at least.

Emergent: Let's look at the actual definition posted, ant not just the features your interested in. Those keynotes are cherry picked to serve your persistent drive for the same old framework seen hundreds of times.

Emergent gameplay refers to complex situations in video games, board games, or table top role-playing games that emerge from the interaction of relatively simple game mechanics.[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergent_gameplay#cite_note-1"][1][/URL]


See, no mention of player owned, or control. Just things that happen when players use the game unexpectedly. Your 'definition' proves my point. The word is used as a lure to get people to look at an issue, but rarely has anything to do with it's intended use.

Immersion: I'm going to avoid the psychology. Neither of us are qualified to address that topic. Instead I'm going to use your other favored source. Wikipedia.

Immersion: a perception of being physically present in a non-physical world.

A fine idea, but not too relevant to this discussion. You're going to say having player owned anything brings with it immersion. I'm going to say it doesn't. It brings a sense of connection to the game, but not immersion.

These words are used over and over again to attempt to make cases, all over the interweb. They are bent to the users will, and overused to the point of nausea. Their actual definitions were besides the point. The point being that your use of phrases to imply content is absurd. You see things in the available material that I don;t see, and frankly I am having trouble with the credibility of anything you say on this matter.

I bring you back to reality. There is a framework for player groups already described. We should be discussing those features and what is actually going to happen, rather than trying to drag someone's old idea, into a new game. Look to the future, and see how what is in the cards may bring.
 
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Utterly agreed! Got to be the proper stuff. Perhaps we should call on the Bacon Cats to grab us some :) That would be some mmo immersive emergent gameplay right there!


What those Bacon Cats are riding sure seems to be the Bacon we expect here in the U.S. What's up with those Canadians anyhow? Round bacon? That's just fried ham. Bacon comes from the stomach, not the thigh. Jeesh.
 
What those Bacon Cats are riding sure seems to be the Bacon we expect here in the U.S. What's up with those Canadians anyhow? Round bacon? That's just fried ham. Bacon comes from the stomach, not the thigh. Jeesh.

I was at Denny's last weekend - I tried to put my fork in a bit of US bacon and it shattered into a million pieces :(

I long for proper bacon! Here's the difference.

t600x390.jpg


And Canadian bacon - it's not bacon either :)
 
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I was at Denny's last weekend - I tried to put my fork in a bit of US bacon and it shattered into a million pieces :(

I long for proper bacon! Here's the difference.

http://img.grouponcdn.com/seocms/wNRVNjwtdvNeqnysLf9wiM/only-a-baby-could-fairly-judge-this-bacon-battle_bacon_600x390_jpg-600x390/v1/t600x390.jpg


Bacon comes from the stomach muscles and smoked to cure. It is fried to be crispy and is properly eaten with your fingers. That other piece of, well let's call it ham, is neither of the things that make Bacon. But, let's be clear here. There is nothing wrong with fried ham, just as long as it is not passed of as Bacon.
 
Shouldn't we be focusing on the actual way player groups are being integrated into the game, rather that harp on this old tired model of empire building. FD are planning a feature that would put player groups right into the BSG. Right into the heart of how this game works, yet you seem driven to recreate someone else's vision. What you are asking for is just the same old offerings you see in every F2P game you can download. Let's move ahead to the plan that seems to be coming.

Dwelling on the features that every game has, even though the Dev's have a different approach is completely counterproductive. Get the info on how integration with minor factions will be done. Consider the ways you can meet your goals with the framework that has already been mentioned. Look to the future, instead of calling for the past.

The Vast majority of Guilds wont be empire builders. That's actually an emergent function of having a Game like ED with Guilds. If you have 400B systems some guilds are more likely then not to go out and forge their own piece of something, On there own, without permission, and without support. Just the way some guilds are.

As far as implementation goes, alright lets get that.


------------------

Fleets In ED as I see them:

What is a Fleet:

A Fleet is a Social structure in the game of Elite Dangerous which lets the people who join it, make use of the following features:

* Rank system
* Fleet Emblem (Can be pasted on Ship)
* Fleet Colors (Can be used for ship)
* Members list
* Ability to set Fleet messages, Daily Messages, and Notification to Members.
* Enables Officers to send mails to Fleet Members "En-mass"
* Keeps track of Online offline status and Location of members, as well as Last time logged in.
* Allows an officer to select which Power (if any) the Fleet is aligned with once every 3 months (Or some indeterminate time decided by FD), more on this later.

******** Created by a Player, RAN BY AN NPC AI via preset variables and Fleet Democratic Vote system. - More on this below.

Breakdown:


Mechanics for Creating a Fleet in ED:

1. A player would navigate tot he Fleet screen which will be in the Galactic powers area (it will have 4 windows instead of 3 at this point, and Galactic Powers text on the menu button in your ship will be changed to "Allegiances".) Here the player would select, the Fleet window, this will be both the way to find a fleet, as well as the way to create one. I'll let FD decide on how the layout looks.

2. The Player would select "Create Fleet". And another menu would pop up:

* Choose Fleet Name
* Choose Fleet Tag
* Choose Fleet Colors
* Write a description about what your fleet is about or Does.
* Design the Ranks

***** Design the NPC who will be the "Fleet Master" and make Decisions about Kicking, Promoting, etc, and what Variables the NPC will use to do such. (This can be changed only by the person who created the Fleet, and only once a month to avoid abuse). The Player who creates the Fleet will Automatically be placed as an officer and remain such, this player can not be kicked/Demoted or removed from the Fleet (unless Voluntary). This would include selecting the NPC's Portrait Avatar, Naming them, writing a bio if they wish, etc

* Chose a Power: Optional - An officer can switch this at a later date if preferred through a Vote to the NPC AI Fleet Master which will be Fleet Wide.

- If a power is Chosen anyone who joins the Fleet will automatically be Aligned with said power, if already serving a power they will be Converted to the new one with all risks and responsibilities as if they had defected.

Officers, Can do the following:

* Schedule Events

* Send Notifications and mails

* Propose Kick From Fleet Votes to the NPC Fleet Master who will then Anomalously gather the votes from the other Fleet members, and decide to Kick, or Reject the Vote based on results. (This will ensure Fleets can have the ability to get rid of negative influences within the Fleet, without giving direct control over such to any player, and thus making the process, "Fair" as a majority fo people would need to agree to the kick, the vote would last 24 hours and then the NPC Fleet master would make a decision "Based on Votes Received").

* Propose a Demote "From Officer" Vote to the NPC Fleet Master, which will then send a Vote to the "Officers" and make a decision based on results of Received Votes after a 24 Hour Period.
* Propose a Promote "To Officer" Vote to NPC Guild Master, Follows the same rules as Demote Vote.
* Propose a Power Alignment Change Vote to the AI Fleet Master who will then issue a (Fleet wide) Vote to determine if it changes or not. Vote will last 24 hours, after which the change will wait for 48 hours, before taking place. (For obvious reasons).

* Recruit, and Invite to Fleet - Approve, Deny Applications

* Promote/Demote to All Ranks EXCEPT Officer.

* Manage Fleet Structures/Inventory/Bank Etc

Hit Create, a preview screen would pop up with the info provided etc, and the player would then confirm, and create the fleet.

- A player may leave the fleet for another (Or Just leave it) after a 24 hour cool down period. A Player may not join another fleet (If they chose to simply leave rather then instantly join another) For one week. Again to avoid abuse.

- An officer must Approve all Applications to the Fleet in order for a player to join.

-------------------

This allows Fleets (Guilds) to exist while simultaneously removing actual Power from any one persons hands, placing them in the hands of a neutral AI. As even if there is only One Officer, that Officer still must rely on the judgments and decisions of the AI Fleet Master in order to Kick, Promote, and Demote. (With the exception of the First Officer Promoted)

Let me know If I missed something.

~Mal
 
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Bacon comes from the stomach muscles and smoked to cure. It is fried to be crispy and is properly eaten with your fingers. That other piece of, well let's call it ham, is neither of the things that make Bacon. But, let's be clear here. There is nothing wrong with fried ham, just as long as it is not passed of as Bacon.

I think this describes it best.

baconguide.jpg


Still on-topic as you have Solo, Groups, and Open represented by cured and cooked porcine fragments on a completely interchangeable basis on the preferences of the individual consumer/player :D
 
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