The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.

[M00ka]

From the few responses giving constructive feedback on why people want guilds, so far i'm seeing a sliding scale.

1) It starts with improved comms and group play. This I think most people could accept (am i right?), as any development in this area is of benefit for anyone who doesn't play solo. The same functionality could be used for regular groups of players/friends and for powerplay.

2) The next step up is where we are talking about cosmetic stuff mainly. People wanting clan decals for example. So far FD have no released many special decals, but it could be part of their future business plan. However, this could be possible to allow player submitted decals, but there would be overhead for FD. They would need to confirm quality of submissions and naturally censor them. And if it wasn't open for any player to submit a decal, then i think you could expect serious pushback from the playerbase.

3) Area control - and of course, this is one of the things that those who oppose clans are most opposed to. If this were implemented outside the framework of powers or factions, not only would it add yet another layer of complexity to the existing system (which many people already feel is half-baked) it turns the clan system into a "this is ours" system. I think it might be easier for people to swallow if the option would simply allow for clans to swear to a minor faction (and it seems like this is in line with recent FD announcements, if not so tightly linked). It wouldn't stop other groups or solo players swearing to that minor faction and it could be made so that the whole thing becomes more dynamic with some dev effort.

4) Now we get really controvertial and where many players will balk, which is the things that might be considered special treatment of clans. This could include clan owned stations (if it wasn't also possible for non-clans to do the same, evne if it was a matter of scale), clan discounts, special guild pages, guild storage, etc. Personally, i couldn't bring myself to agree with these as they then differentiate clan players too much from non-clan players. If such things are to be implemented, they have to be available (where possible) to all players regardless of their preferred play mode or whether they want to be in a group or lone wolves.

There is also the matter of lore that keeps coming up. While there are plenty of players who make their group (clan) play fit with lore, you will always get those who want to call themselves Goons or whatever, and has been mentioned, seeing in Galnet a news article along the lines of "Commander xxx_SuckMyKiss_xxx of the Guild XboxersUnite2010" (and that might be a moderate example) would send many players to reread the Jolly Roger's Cookbook and decide where to send a special package

So, from what i'm seeing, there are some nice suggestions so far that would be of benefits for clans, but also of benefit to most users.

If, instead of doing what some people want, and FD focus on improving in game tools, and allowing players to get greater control over minor factions, allow them to act as a form of emergent gameplay, and as possible, tighter integration between powers and factions, it may just be that it will satisfy some of those looking for clan like features.

Those who want special treatment for clans though, with ownership, discounts, etc.... i think, no matter how many polls are run, or arguments made (good as they may be), I don't think FD will bite.

- - - Updated - - -



If i had a dollar for every time someone posted on the forums a variation of "If FD don't make the game work i want it to work it will die"... id have erm... perhaps a thousand dollars!

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Great post, REP is due. Pity some won't read it or understand it.
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damn you will have to wait for your Rep, already given you some today (FD FIX THIS NOW, I DEMAND IT or THE GAME WILL DIE lol)

 

[andyraptor]

I simply don't have the energy in life to argue against the Flat Earth Society.

Yes, there are many reasons why a game that has been overwhelmed by Guilds would become unfun.

But there are many reasons why a game that supported some Guilds would be more fun.

Flat refusal to allow some content into the game for Guild support is beyond believable to me. I spent weeks reading and being aggravated by the last thread with the same naysayers building the same roadblocks....

This game will either grow to support multiplayer groups or it will die on the vine.

I will now respectfully ignore this thread.....

Cheers,
CMDR -Jericho- [FREDM]

The most likely scenario is groups of minor "open" players will fade and the game will continue without even noticing your passing into oblivion

 

[Commander Debic]

The old and stale argument about cooperative players being so scccaarrreedd of PVP play and anything else that can be dragged in. Any poster doing this is merely trying to put people who are not interested in forms of PVP play in ED down, as is their usual way to bolster their own arguments of changes to the game.
People are not scared they just dislike that form of interaction, not all people some. They are entitled to feel that way about games like Eve without ever being scared of any thing. Dislike of something doesn't imply fear. In my time in Eve I finally got just dammed bored of the stupidity and continual repetitiveness of jumping in to an alliance spending up to a couple of hours looking for another group. Then winning or losing. That was it really. All these people talking about depth of gameplay in PVP are talking about that and nothing more. Yes there are different ways of accomplishing the same end but its basically same old same old. Knock the guy trading around the galaxy if you like but his method of play is no more fearful or boring than any mad raving pvp'er. That's why I don't want to see guilds and group owned structures.
Had that in WoW and their over the top continual entitled special snowflake guildy mind set. I paid the same monthly sum for my subscription as they did, why was the game made to cater so strongly to them and not to the other players who just liked to mess in with a few players now and again.
That all came about because the Devs catered more and more for the elitist few who felt the game was all about them and their guilds.

 

[specialsymbol]

How comes that any reddit idea has to do with guilds?

Also it's interesting that Frontier Devs are more likely to answer in reddit than in their own forums..

 

[Crazy Jedi]

Introducing guilds doesn't necessarily result in "Guild-based". Again, we're back to the nuance of "what is a guild", good game design and what sort of limits FD might chose to impose on this proposed entity.

You say that you bought the game precisely because it didn't have Guilds. I respectfully say "no you didn't". That was a surface detail, but the game not having Guilds meant that something you didn't like wasn't going to be there. What was that "something you didn't like"?

If I could ask for one thing in the thread going forward, stop talking about "Guilds" - talk about what it is about Guilds that concern you.

Yes I did buy the game because it did not have guilds. It was something that I checked first.
I have listed in at least two of my previous posts what I do not like about guild oriented games and why they would ruin the game for me.
Unless the guilds are in a separate mode ie (as I've posted before) Solo - Group - Open -Guild --they will have a huge affect on Open game play by their very nature.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

How comes that any reddit idea has to do with guilds?

Also it's interesting that Frontier Devs are more likely to answer in reddit than in their own forums..

If you mean CMDR Vanguard, well he/she is FDEV Support, not a Dev.

I think you'll find FDEV devs post mostly in these forums, not Reddit.

 

[FuzzySpider]

If i had a dollar for every time someone posted on the forums a variation of "If FD don't make the game work i want it to work it will die"... id have erm... perhaps a thousand dollars!

There should be a drinking game. A single shot of vodka whenever anyone says the game will die.

We'd all need liver transplants within weeks.

 

[M00ka]

I, and the other players in this grouping we've been referring to as Guilds, will now be able to message each other all at once inside a single chat instance - instead of messaging each other individually as we do now. We'll be able to have three, four, eight way conversations as we see fit.

If we're an activity orientated organisation (which my lot aren't, we just socialise) then we can access a static message letting everyone know what the plan for the day, week or whatever is.

While we're out and about, we might save a player from a mean old pirate who we invite to join our Guild. He likes the idea and accepts and so we invite him in. He now has immediate access to the Guild members page, and can see who's online, where they are etc. without having to manually add each player to his friends list (which they have to individually accept). Try doing that for a larger group (say over 30 members) and imagine how much player-time has just been consumed on nothing more than maintenance of friends lists.

He can now chat to everyone as a group, without having to individually message each person on his friends list (some of whom may not be in the group, as the friends list doesn't allow categorisation).

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Thank you for replying, that hasn't happened a lot in this thread when questions have been asked.
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Yes your guild sounds great, kind of a Robin Hood and his Merry Spacemen type of thing. But you see I have seen the other side of the coin, lets call it the Sherriff of Nottingham scenario. That is where you see the poor trader being attacked by a mean old pirate, and after dispatching the pirate, make an offer to the trader that he can't refuse - either abandon his cargo or be destroyed. You have a couple of members who don't mind becoming wanted, the Guild will pay for their Sidewinder to clear the bounty - in fact one of your very own guild members will do the honours (and of course collect the bounty). And if this poor trader tries to run, well you have this big group spread out all over the system who can hunt him down for not accepting the Guilds such kind answer.
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Yes, I know I am talking about something that would never happen, no guild in the history of gaming would have done that, but then again, no player sits outside of a station ganking pilots as the enter and leave a station either ....

 

[DragoCubX]

So I'll post my idea from the last Guild thread in here, since I still like it, because it's a bit different from what most people seem to expect from Guilds here. I apologize for not reading the whole thread in advance, but please read this and tell me how that sounds to you guys:

What I (and probably/hopefully other players) would love to do is not to own a station and make money with it/have fun with it, but to be able to create a minor faction, then building that one up, getting an outpost at some point (and even later a real station), so that you have a home/base you can return to and meet same-minded people and friends. At the same time, this could be tied to powerplay (player-created minor faction has to be part of powerplay faction).
Of course that would need some restrictions:

1. Player-controlled minor factions don't get NPCs to join them -> they cannot deploy system security vessels, the system would always remain in "control" by NPC security forces (however, in the weapon-free zone of the factions station players from that faction are regarded as system security vessels, giving them the chance to defend against attackers even when those are clean)

2. Player-controlled minor factions are limited to a single system and a single station (however, they may migrate to another - neighbouring - system, destroying their previous efforts)

3.1 First solution: No station belonging to a player-controlled faction can sell ships/cargo/compartments. For getting a bulletin board/repair/refuel/etc. service, the players of the faction must hand over merits from their powerplay faction in order to get assigned the right to build it up by that PP faction, and after getting the right, either pay a lot of money to actually build it or reduce the price by handing over needed resources for building for free. The station behaves exactly as any other station towards it's factions members, except for getting fuel/ammo (not repairs) for free and being the stations security.
3.2 Second solution: Station behaves exactly as any other station towards it's factions members, except for being the stations security. Which services the station offers depends completely on the background system.

4. Because of 1., player-controlled minor factions neither are able to declare war, nor to participate in any (civil) wars.

5. Due to be tied to PP factions, player-controlled minor factions cannot be founded in the territory of another PP faction. Founding such a faction in empty systems (in terms of PP factions) does not make that system part of the PP faction the player faction belongs to.

6. A player-controlled minor faction may be shown in system statistics, but should get a "player-controlled" mark instead of having an influence bar. It would also have the symbol of the PP faction it belongs to.

A player-controlled station automatically gets a prefix/suffix, for example [PC] (player-controlled) to prevent newbies and unknowing players to try to land there and instead getting shot by the controlling players because of the lulz. However, building up your faction to actually get a basic outpost should be supposed to take 2-3 weeks of heavy grinding, if not a lot more, and I don't believe players will invest that much time anyway to just be able to shoot other players legally (because how many times do you think players would land there anyway?). And killing NPCs wouldn't gain you anything, since stolen goods would be forbidden at your own station (I imply here, that taking up any canisters in the station's area should remove your "security vessel" status).

This is optional: When a foreign player of the same PP faction arrives at such a station, he may be greeted as ally by the station even when wanted in that system and be treated as such by station's security, unless that player commits/has commited a crime against a player/the station of the minor faction.

I thought of this system to give players the ability to have a home which also feels like one, and not like any other place in space.

 

[Crazy Jedi]

There should be a drinking game. A single shot of vodka whenever anyone says the game will die.

We'd all need liver transplants within weeks.

Count me in !

 

[Talarin]

Yes your guild sounds great, kind of a Robin Hood and his Merry Spacemen type of thing. But you see I have seen the other side of the coin, lets call it the Sherriff of Nottingham scenario. That is where you see the poor trader being attacked by a mean old pirate, and after dispatching the pirate, make an offer to the trader that he can't refuse - either abandon his cargo or be destroyed. You have a couple of members who don't mind becoming wanted, the Guild will pay for their Sidewinder to clear the bounty - in fact one of your very own guild members will do the honours (and of course collect the bounty). And if this poor trader tries to run, well you have this big group spread out all over the system who can hunt him down for not accepting the Guilds such kind answer.

I understand your point, but the important thing to consider is that both of our scenarios can and do happen in the game right now. Remember - the hardcore players who want to be in a Guild and behave as a collective are already doing it.

The only difference is that my proposed social tools have just saved a bunch of players a bunch of time housekeeping their friends list and a lot of time trying communicate with each other effectively using the in-game tools.

 

[Soliluna]

You put a guild system in the game then you'll have good guild's sure, you'd also give the psycho killer's a simple streamlined way to abuse new player's like I was. Not everyone is nice, this guild system would let them group up and far too easily grief people. Now I may not have been making this clear enough, but I'm not against better organizing tool's added to COMMS. BUT owning stations would be too far and allow the behavior that drive's many away from games like happened before to me to happen here. Also if you can't own a base according to many it's not a guild system so why keep advocating the one biggest feature that'd make bully guild's even more of a nuisance than they already are? Oh wait I won't get an answer, at least mot from Cmdr Corran Antillies as his go to deffense is attacking his opposer's and not trying to convince us wgy this wouldn't happen because he know's it would. Either that or he's just trying to start fight's one.

According to a video posted by a player earlier David and the team have been looking into how to implement player owned shops/stations and how this would effect the game - he wanted to do it. So it is something they want to introduce. Which makes sense, it is a great way to expand the game further, providing more playtime because there would be more ways for more players to play.

Its clear they are against the 'mafiosi' like guilds that ossify a community, like what you experience in Eve. But that is not true of all games and the way that guilds are played, which is likely why we have powerplay right now. It was also hinted that players would be able to 'sponsor' minor factions soon (posted by a mod earlier).

I would say that they are well on the way to introducing these features, despite what others keep portraying as 'Them not wanting it'. They take the stance that David clearly doesn't like guilds in a game but I think the videos and answers given show that he just doesn't appreciate the failures of previous games implementation of said features.

Also - expecting all 'pro-guild' players to want the same thing, is lunacy. Anti-guild players simply need to agree they do not want guilds, which is very easy to come together and agree on. Constantly circulating that all pro-guild players need to agree before an implementation could be considered is nonsense and ridiculous. (This is more in response to M00ka than to you).

Each player is going to want and expect something different.

When I tried out Eve I had a friendly corp help me when I started, they gave me a grant (not to payback to them but asked that participate in corporate activities - when I had time). They gave advice regarding skill setups, ship outfittings and where to go and how to progress on a certain profession (Industry). I played up my trial netting several hundred million from trading, decided that the game wasn't for me (mostly because I hate static skill systems that gate the content), paid them back the grant with interest thanking them for their generosity then gave my friend who has played it for years the rest. It wasn't a great deal compared to his finances but it did mean I floated his subscription for that month.

I don't disagree that it may happen Stealth - it's happening right now with CODE apparently (but with 400 billion systems I have met only a handful of commanders in space and have never met CODE - in fact I have not met any commander in space since I left the starting systems so...). What you are describing is possible now, as has been pointed out by both sides. Introducing these tools (communication) in game is not about providing those players with tools to continue their griefing (if that is truely what they are doing, it sounds like it could just be pirating). It is about providing all players with a way of communicating and finding each other from within the game. As has been pointed out, it is not ideal for everyone to be using third party solutions.

Regarding guild owned stations, the architecture just makes that pointless really. And even then, as has been pointed out, what exactly is it that a guild can do together in a station that they cant already do without one? There is nothing in the game to support that type of playing right now.

Which is why I 'voted' for no guilds, but limited player owned stations. But subsequently said that the comms can and should be upgraded so that like minded players can find each other and play together if they want. Excluding this feature because some people want to grief is just stupid, in fact that just makes the griefers 'win'. Because all those players that want to find each other to play the game without negatively impacting others are now being negatively impacted.

As has been said many times, it's a PVP issue - introduce mechanics that discourage this behaviour is how you deal with it and many people have offered solutions to this. Changes to the bounty systems for example.

What I would suggest is, a reverse PVP toggle - if you are being griefed you can mark someone as 'ignore' and then the system prevents you from being matched into their instance so you don't have to play with them again, ever. If they are part of a wing, that wing is also excluded from being matched into your instance also.

Normally I would say this would be a detriment to the 'open mode' but truth is you could switch to private or solo and get this same effect so really it's just allowing players to stay in open where they want to be without being harassed continually.

 

[M00ka]

I understand your point, but the important thing to consider is that both of our scenarios can and do happen in the game right now. Remember - the hardcore players who want to be in a Guild and behave as a collective are already doing it.

The only difference is that my proposed social tools have just saved a bunch of players a bunch of time housekeeping their friends list and a lot of time trying communicate with each other effectively using the in-game tools.

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True and thank you for acknowledging that both scenario's are occurring now. But think how with the introduction of your proposed social tools how the hardcore players will raise their level of undesirable play to exponentially high levels. And really no one would be able to stop them if they get too big. As has been discussed at length, just getting the tools will not be enough, once they get those, then the posts, the rants, the posts predicting the death of the game will spew forth demanding they get their own stations, discounts, the ability to enforce their law in their piece of space.
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Look I, like the majority have said from my side of the fence, don't have a problem with getting better communication tools, we really don't. But we, well I can't talk for everyone so I will say ME, can also see where it may lead to. If FD give the first part of the guild equation, they will be hounded to give the rest.
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Added bit lol
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Just to comment on statement Soliluna made about space being big and there is a good chance that nobody will actually see any guilds as they will be 'out there' somewhere far far away. Yes space is big and it is empty, and some guilds will head out the back of beyond to carve their only little piece of history. But the guilds that we are worried about, they won't, they will want to be in the populated systems, they need to have non-guild players frequenting their space, that is their prey. Even if FD start them out on the rim, they will somehow migrate to where the action is because without that action they can't do what they want to do and that is prove to everyone how good and tough they are.

 

[Soliluna]

Which is why I find it telling the 3rd option doesn't have more votes. I suspect there are just as many players who support the 3rd option as the 1st, but the advertising campaign on reddit has swamped this option from the discussion. All the while this is where the common ground lies.

Disclaimer: note how I underlined "advertising campaign"? It means I am not making any judgements on reddit, but I'm pointing to an event on reddit. In no way, shape or form am I labeling the fine people of reddit who are all rather handsome, nice, thoughtful and well-smelling people ... oh wait, now I'm still labeling. Oh never mind.

I voted first option - I don't want guilds, but player owned stations/hangars is something I consider a plus. My vote was better communication tools in game, and limited player owned shops/stations/hangars whatever. So my vote sat better in 'guilds and limited player owned stations' than the other two.

Such is the way the options were set out :\ (yet another reason why the poll is pointless).

- - - Updated - - -

You see my Captain's Log application?

I can quite easily write an overlay-based IRC application for you. Quite easily. Sure, it's not in-game per se, but it
would effectively be the same.

I've wrote some myself, including bots that interact with my own custom applications. Which is why I know how simple it is to implement and why I want it :>

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

There should be a drinking game. A single shot of vodka whenever anyone says the game will die.

We'd all need liver transplants within weeks.

I thought that's what the guild "Drunks of SOL" is about?
The drinking game, not the liver transplant.

 

[Soliluna]

well personally I do not find your core things too obnoxious but imo many here are demanding the "optional" things you list. I I feel all your optional things would be a betrayal of the game i was sold if they came in.

Even then however there is a bit of a disconnect in place.. SHOULD a player be able to converse with a guild member is he is at Sol and the guild member is at SagA? Then I think it comes down to do you want ED to be a more arcadey product that does not consider such limits OR do you want it to maintain feasibly realistic limitations? (in a universe where FTL and Hyperspace travel is possible)

Clearly ED is not a full on Sim, so it is a sliding scale at where you personally are happy to see the compromises in the name of entertainment.

I think that we can get information on all powers, anywhere, and that we get a galnet newsfeed in any station suggests there is a lore written way they could introduce comms. Either way it would not lose its credibility (personally) if it introduced this way of communication. I appreciate others would not feel the same way though.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I voted first option - I don't want guilds, but player owned stations/hangars is something I consider a plus. My vote was better communication tools in game, and limited player owned shops/stations/hangars whatever. So my vote sat better in 'guilds and limited player owned stations' than the other two.

Such is the way the options were set out :\ (yet another reason why the poll is pointless).

Heh, and to make things more confusing. Player owned hangars/stations can be anything from a bachelor pad with a landing platform to a full fledged fully equipment totally controllable Coriolis station.

As you rightly pointed out earlier, treating this as an A vs B argument is not understanding the issue. There are so many different takes on the matter. And when you get into the nuances, you find out that the differences aren't as pronounced as some would like you to believe, and there is in fact often plenty of overlap. Save from some particular cases I found that discussing the issue in honesty with players often resulted in agreement on the larger issues, and agreeing to disagree on the details.

 

[Soliluna]

true... but just becasue a player CAN "cheat" and go beyond what limitations the game may put in in the name of lore does not mean it should be officially condoned imo. (I am not having a go, but imo IF elite lore decided comms should have a finite range, then players using teamspeak are gamign the system in the same way that people using thrudds tool or slopeys tool to find good trade routes does not mean that best trade routes should be auto uploaded into the game**)

**although a personal CMDRs log where you can put your OWN titbits in there is absolutely something we need imo)

I agree with the log, asked for it many times - particularly when rifting it is endlessly frustrating. I asked that we be able to download trade data from a station to our computer that was correct at the time you downloaded it too.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

A log! By Blammo.

I'd love an ingame log. With a button "copy current system name".

 

[Asp Explorer]

I thought that's what the guild "Drunks of SOL" is about?
The drinking game, not the liver transplant.

That is exactly what Drunks of Sol are all about take a drink every time someone says pew-pew