Modes The Open v Solo v Groups thread IV - Hotel California

[Roybe]

I've come to the conclusion you like to argue for the sake of argument.

Im really trying to meet in the middle here. And you just shoot down every little thing because you dont like it. Basically doing what you are accusing me of.

Im trying to make suggestions based off balancing for everyone. And once again, its unbalanced to others or this thread would not exist. But you just cant shoot everything down because you dont like PVP aspects of the game. And give some context to PVP which we dont have right now.

Its really frustrating with the my way or no way attitude. Especially when someone like me that is trying to meet in the middle. And not take anything away from the PVE aspect of the game, as you can see here in this thread that I linked above. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/375671-Half-baked-suggestion-Powerplay-PvPvE

And more specifcially this comment, https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...erplay-PvPvE?p=5899189&viewfull=1#post5899189

The only thing ive seen is whining, There has been no suggestions. Not trying to meet in the middle.

The difference between a whiner and constructive criticisms, is people work together. Its its quite obvious you have no intentions of doing that.

Nope...arguing for arguments sake is my bailiwick.

And here's where the PVP logic tends to break down...

There is no reason in this game...other than personal enjoyment to bang someone in the face.

The game has literally no reward for doing this...yes, there are missions that count PvP...but if I was trying to fill those missions that way...I would have slit my wrists long ago.

Do you want to know the people that were truly disappointed by this game's design? Those players that set up and ran the Lugh War.

Once we discovered the truth...we had to tell our PVP players to do what they wanted...but PVP was antithetical to winning the war.

The only PvP this game will ever have is what we currently have...two massive groups out-collecting PVE trophies to a number that trips rewards.

This is not an argument the PVP crowed will EVER win....there will NEVER be PVP in this game that will contribute to the outcome of any conflict in this game...it will always be about the token race. It can be nothing else...because of the basic design...as well as the cross platform design....the 'modes' cannot be equivalent...they MUST be equal....

I will not work with anyone on this topic...because the devs have clearly and succinctly stated that there is NO topic.

It really does come down to the only choice players have...accept that PVP in this game is a PVE token race...or find another game that will scratch your direct PVP itch.

I agree, this sucks...and the game could be somewhat more interesting if PVP was somehow less of a sideshow and headache...but it isn't...and discussion will not change the choices made by the devs.

 

[Roybe]

Ive said it thousand time.

Just like league of legends/Riot games will tell you. If you participate in ranked, or in this case PVP activity your bad connection can impact others. And games like League of Legends will ban you for it.

Stick to the PVE content in solo or private until your connection is better.

Its one of the biggest reasons they are fixing combat logging.

Its not anyone elses fault but your own if you have a bad connection. And if you know you have a bad connection. You shouldnt participate in said events until your connection permits you to.

Easy as Pie.

But im sure you'll ignore this just like you did that last 1000 times i've said it.

I have a perfect internet connection...I can still block players from seeing me. Not detectable...so a great exploit...give me a bonus for playing in open....please!

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Nope...arguing for arguments sake is my bailiwick.

And here's where the PVP logic tends to break down...

There is no reason in this game...other than personal enjoyment to bang someone in the face.

The game has literally no reward for doing this...yes, there are missions that count PvP...but if I was trying to fill those missions that way...I would have slit my wrists long ago.

Do you want to know the people that were truly disappointed by this game's design? Those players that set up and ran the Lugh War.

Once we discovered the truth...we had to tell our PVP players to do what they wanted...but PVP was antithetical to winning the war.

The only PvP this game will ever have is what we currently have...two massive groups out-collecting PVE trophies to a number that trips rewards.

This is not an argument the PVP crowed will EVER win....there will NEVER be PVP in this game that will contribute to the outcome of any conflict in this game...it will always be about the token race. It can be nothing else...because of the basic design...as well as the cross platform design....the 'modes' cannot be equivalent...they MUST be equal....

I will not work with anyone on this topic...because the devs have clearly and succinctly stated that there is NO topic.

It really does come down to the only choice players have...accept that PVP in this game is a PVE token race...or find another game that will scratch your direct PVP itch.

I agree, this sucks...and the game could be somewhat more interesting if PVP was somehow less of a sideshow and headache...but it isn't...and discussion will not change the choices made by the devs.

Changes will come brother. Its inevitable. We still have a long ways to go. This game is in its infancy. And even Sandro said hes not interested in pvp(RIGHT NOW) He used (Right now). For a reason. Because they do want that aspect. And they balance weapons and modules around it specifically. They dont make balances changes around PVE. No reason to. Look at diablo 3.

One day brother. All this will blow over. And I think its why they allow these threads to continue and grab feedback from them. Its not like people dont show interest in it. People are more interested in PVPing in the main part of the game over CQC. I'll tell you that.

We gotta be patient. And we should be working together as a community instead of going after each others throats just because someone does not like one aspect or the other.

Some of the things that are said around this community especially when it comes to PVP is vile and disgusting.

This is the only game and community I have ever been in where PVP was related to IRL psychopathic behavior. And thats a MAJOR MAJOR problem. More so than than the open/solo/private discussion we are having now. Which is why a lot of us want some closure on this issue. Its getting out of hand.

I have a perfect internet connection...I can still block players from seeing me. Not detectable...so a great exploit...give me a bonus for playing in open....please!

Definitely a loophole that needs to be closed. Its okay for now though.

Its like blocking a player in league of legends removing them from the battle field. Instead of just blocking their communication.

 

[Roybe]

Changes will come brother. Its inevitable. We still have a long ways to go. This game is in its infancy. And even Sandro said hes not interested in pvp(RIGHT NOW) He used (Right now). For a reason. Because they do want that aspect. And they balance weapons and modules around it specifically. They dont make balances changes around PVE. No reason to. Look at diablo 3.

One day brother. All this will blow over. And I think its why they allow these threads to continue and grab feedback from them. Its not like people dont show interest in it. People are more interested in PVPing in the main part of the game over CQC. I'll tell you that.

We gotta be patient. And we should be working together as a community instead of going after each others throats just because someone does not like one aspect or the other.

Some of the things that are said around this community especially when it comes to PVP is vile and disgusting.

This is the only game and community I have ever been in where PVP was related to IRL psychopathic behavior. And thats a MAJOR MAJOR problem. More so than than the open/solo/private discussion we are having now. Which is why a lot of us want some closure on this issue. Its getting out of hand.



Definitely a loophole that needs to be closed. Its okay for now though.

Its like blocking a player in league of legends removing them from the battle field. Instead of just blocking their communication.

Here you go....write away and tell them what you think...read the first post on how to be heard. There is no hope on this issue....and there will be plenty of changes coming...but none will move the sideshow of PVP to somewhere nearer a limelight....it's not in the DNA of the game, nor its designers....I see nothing said around here that is no different than any other game community where they tried to mix PVE and PVP...if you missed those times...be happy.


https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...cting-community-goals-(details-in-first-post)

Here was my 'typical' gamer response to the situation we are discussing...once I wrapped my head around the fact that the devs were not designing this game to any 'normal' PVP standard...I chose to stick around....a lot of others did not...and more than a few of the people I knew from that time...became what most people consider greifers...basically, forcing what they consider the 'brokeness' of the game to the fore...by greifing the game and 'showing the devs the folly of their ways'...it is not going to change.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-first-post)?p=2090191&viewfull=1#post2090191

 

[Kruger]

Ive said it thousand time.

Just like league of legends/Riot games will tell you. If you participate in ranked, or in this case PVP activity your bad connection can impact others. And games like League of Legends will ban you for it.

Stick to the PVE content in solo or private until your connection is better.

Its one of the biggest reasons they are fixing combat logging.

Its not anyone elses fault but your own if you have a bad connection. And if you know you have a bad connection. You shouldnt participate in said events until your connection permits you to.

Easy as Pie.

But im sure you'll ignore this just like you did that last 1000 times i've said it.

Alright, I'll reword my point then.

With your argument that you've made before: Balancing Solo and PG against Open because Solo and PG can apparently affect the BGS for factions without the worry of getting shot. OK, I get that.

But here's where my point comes in. You don't have a good connection. So, you play in Solo because that's the only thing your connection can handle. With your proposal, you want to keep these players from taking part in what they want to. I understand, that if you want to PvP, directly well then you're out of luck as that REQUIRES a good connection. But the majority of the game is PvE.

Or is that your angle here? Keep some players from playing how and what they want because they don't have a good connection?

I'm really trying to understand where you're coming from, but this issue is one that needs to be addressed as well.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Alright, I'll reword my point then.

With your argument that you've made before: Balancing Solo and PG against Open because Solo and PG can apparently affect the BGS for factions without the worry of getting shot. OK, I get that.

But here's where my point comes in. You don't have a good connection. So, you play in Solo because that's the only thing your connection can handle. With your proposal, you want to keep these players from taking part in what they want to. I understand, that if you want to PvP, directly well then you're out of luck as that REQUIRES a good connection. But the majority of the game is PvE.

Or is that your angle here? Keep some players from playing how and what they want because they don't have a good connection?

I'm really trying to understand where you're coming from, but this issue is one that needs to be addressed as well.

Yes, in League of legends for example you can play bot games, and if you disconnect its not a big deal. You arent effecting your team or the other.

However if you do have a bad connection, and Im speaking from experience here I had a 2 week ban from ranked because of my bad connection. I was not DCing on purpose. They told me if they knew it was bad. Then stay out until its fixed because it effects everyone in the game. Everyones MMR is effected because of it. And I agree.

Now I want to reiterate that there are many suggestions to be made. And that was just mine. And I dont mind meeting in the middle.

Even this proposal Ziggy Stardust put up. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...erplay-PvPvE?p=5899189&viewfull=1#post5899189

I dont mind meeting in the middle so everyone is happy. But even this would require a good internet connection even, for the PVE stuff. Your disconnection could mean a loss for your team.

I understand one offs happen. But if you're in no position to play because of your connection as you are over seas right? Then im sorry you shouldn't be involved in it. Just like I shouldn't have been involved in those ranked games in league and got the 2 week ban.

Again that comes down to your problem until its fixed. When its fixed then you can take part in the wonderful world of PVP.

But all PVP games require a good connection. Not just this one.

And I agree, Frontier needs to fix their end drastically. And maybe thats why we havnt seen any progression in the way of PVP due to their horrid networking. Even they see it when they live stream and try to play it off. But they do understand its an issue. And I am sure it will be tackled someday.

However if the servers were the greatest in the world. And you know your connection is bad. Im sorry but thats on you. And you would be a hindrance to your team. Its not that we dont want you there. Because we do. We just dont want you there knowing your connection is in the dumps.

 

[Roybe]

So, about PG's and the theoretical "Open PVE"...

We don't NEED an Open PVE because we have PG's.

We have had some issues with people "invading" PG's specifically to prove to everyone what mighty and powerful people they are by entering into a parallel dimension with their mighty warships and preying on those who wanted nothing to do with their style of play.

To me this looks like this:

On the left side, we have a 100-yard (American) Football Field.
On the right, an identical 100-yard (American) Football Field.

On the left, two teams are playing Touch Football.
On the right, two teams are playing Tackle Football.

Someone comes over from the right to the left and starts Tackling the Touch players, screaming "THIS IS HOW I PLAY! THIS IS HOW YOU SHOULD PLAY! NOW PLAY WITH ME!"

And nobody wants to, or they'd already be on the right side field, and the Referee kicks them out and sends them back to their field.

It's both silly and pathetic at the same time - both are playing the same game, both have identical fields. One likes pain and bruises, the other does not.

It's OK to like pain and bruises.
It's also OK not to.

It's not OK to insist someone else "Play their way, as long as it's your way."

Now go play - have fun, and try not to [expletive deleted] and one off, ok?

Player groups are not PVE....they are PVP where no one uses the game mode...unless they want to be dbutts. Therein, lies the problem.

There are no pure co-op choices for the game (where someone cannot kill another player).

My personal stance on this is simple....there should never be a way for a customer to bone 40K+ other customers by removing the game from their hard drive. I give Mobius a lot of credit...he has made the point for a PVE mode...now it's time for the devs to design it and add it onto the start menu...if not that...then public groups with multiple flagging capabilities including no friendly fire...and no collisions....THIS is the basis of the games design...and how it should be....why it hasn't occurred yet...is on the devs...

 

[thirstyfish]

I've come to the conclusion you like to argue for the sake of argument.

Im really trying to meet in the middle here. And you just shoot down every little thing because you dont like it. Basically doing what you are accusing me of.

Im trying to make suggestions based off balancing for everyone. And once again, its unbalanced to others or this thread would not exist. But you just cant shoot everything down because you dont like PVP aspects of the game. And give some context to PVP which we dont have right now.

Its really frustrating with the my way or no way attitude. Especially when someone like me that is trying to meet in the middle. And not take anything away from the PVE aspect of the game, as you can see here in this thread that I linked above. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/375671-Half-baked-suggestion-Powerplay-PvPvE

And more specifcially this comment, https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...erplay-PvPvE?p=5899189&viewfull=1#post5899189

The only thing ive seen is whining, There has been no suggestions. Not trying to meet in the middle.

The difference between a whiner and constructive criticisms, is people work together. Its its quite obvious you have no intentions of doing that.

You call it meeting in the middle, I don't. You are suggesting that locking the BGS to open will somehow fix things and give pvp context. I disagree for the following reasons:

1) Everyone has equal access to the BGS as is, FD has stated on multiple occasions that this is as intended, ever since the KS and you see it in the DDF.
2) Locking the BGS to open would be bad business for FD, as this would be going back on a KS promise, which they need to honor.
3) I don't believe that this will give context to pvp. Sure it might give the lulzbunnies something to shoot at some more, but the BGS doesn't care about PvP, it doesn't factor in the slightest
4) It would be inhibiting people's ability to play their way, which is a major part of this game. This would be punishing people who don't want to play in open mode but need to work the BGS now and again for things like faction states
5) It is easily exploitable by merely setting your router to block P2P connections, rendering the change useless.
6) It would be punishing people who might be in places where they can't get an internet connection strong enough to support this kind of P2P connection.

I have no doubt there are ways to bring context to PvP. However, I genuinely believe that locking the BGS to open mode only isn't it and it would just create more problems than it solves. There has to be another way to skin this proverbial cat.

There are times where I play devil's advocate for the sake of doing so, this isn't one of those times. And I haven't been whining about the game, just this suggestion that has been rejected by FD already. And if you're frustrated at me for being stubborn, look in the mirror some time. If I'm the kettle, then you're the pot.

The BGS is available to all regardless of game mode for a reason. Everyone, regardless of playstyle, regardless of mode choice, gets to have equal access to the BGS. The BGS is mode blind, as far as it's concerned Solo = PG = Open. Level playing field. Anything past that is player effort to influence it and player skill in knowing how to influence it. Dev's have said repeatedly that every game mode should be equally viable, locking the BGS would make this so that open is better than the others. One of the major selling points on the game's website is "play the game your way," and locking the BGS would inhibit that. Locking the BGS would be taking choices away from players, that is almost never a good thing in games. People should have the ability to choose what mode they want to play this game in, and no matter what that choice is, it should be just as viable as the next as far as the BGS is concerned.

 

[Jockey79]

Changes will come brother. Its inevitable.

No, it ain't, Death and Taxes are "inevitable", everything else is uncertain

They dont make balances changes around PVE. No reason to.

LMAO - the patch logs prove that comment wrong.
Direct PvP is optional in Elite: Dangerous - it's either PvE or indirect PvP (aka more PvE) to push the BGS. That's where the balance of the game sits.

Some of the things that are said around this community especially when it comes to PVP is vile and disgusting.

The comments from PvP'ers regarding PvE players are really bad.

This is the only game and community I have ever been in where PVP was related to IRL psychopathic behavior. And thats a MAJOR MAJOR problem. More so than than the open/solo/private discussion we are having now. Which is why a lot of us want some closure on this issue. Its getting out of hand.

Not been on many MMO forums then, as every mixed mode MMOs I've ever played people point out how the lack of empathy from PvP'ers shows they are all nutters who need locking up

 

[Roybe]

Sometimes you have to change the song, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjlgUx7_aN0

Trying to change this particular tune in this thread just comes across as absurd [yesnod]....

[video=youtube_share;m1wkfJY3AZM]https://youtu.be/m1wkfJY3AZM[/video]

 

[Mohrgan]

PvP is not more important than paying customers getting what was promised. Everyone that buys in, should have equal access. This equal access had been a hallmark of the game's design from scratch. That is what a boatload of players payed for, and they should have it.

Those people dissatisfied with how the modes work have no one to blame but themselves for buying a game they don't understand, or one they don't agree with it's design.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

No, it ain't, Death and Taxes are "inevitable", everything else is uncertain



LMAO - the patch logs prove that comment wrong.
Direct PvP is optional in Elite: Dangerous - it's either PvE or indirect PvP (aka more PvE) to push the BGS. That's where the balance of the game sits.



The comments from PvP'ers regarding PvE players are really bad.



Not been on many MMO forums then, as every mixed mode MMOs I've ever played people point out how the lack of empathy from PvP'ers shows they are all nutters who need locking up

How about them heat sinks? How bout that heat meta? How about them hull adjustments made about 5 months ago and the weapons adjustment vs smaller and bigger ships.

Remember heat doesn't effect NPC's.

Im going to tell you the same as I told the other guy.

There are people trying to meet in the middle for game balancing. And even ziggy is trying to do that. But some people here take snippest and arguing things out of context for the sake of argument.

The difference between a whiner and constrictive criticism is people working together. And you have no intentions of doing that. You shoot down everything you see because you dont like PVP aspects of this game. And thats not very fair when people are trying to meet in the middle.

This thread should be a lot more than a he said she said. And thats all its been. There has been no other suggestions in terms of a hand shake. Just badgering and arguing semantics. Or you even getting your post edited when you told me to take a "blue pill".

You arent really contributing to the conversation. You just argue the points because you feel there does not need to be any changes. When there are 4 massive threads about the same topic going on for years. There is obviously an issue here. And instead of meeting on middle ground. You use the he said she said arguments thats been going on for quite sometime creating toxicity instead of coming together as a community.

And its quite shameful to see these actions.

You guys can continue to argue among yourselves. Ive said my piece. And I know Fdev has seen it. But I will not stop the fight for balancing. And it will happen one day. Like it, or not.

 

[Mohrgan]

How about them heat sinks? How bout that heat meta? How about them hull adjustments made about 5 months ago and the weapons adjustment vs smaller and bigger ships.

Remember heat doesn't effect NPC's.

Im going to tell you the same as I told the other guy.

There are people trying to meet in the middle for game balancing. And even ziggy is trying to do that. But some people here take snippest and arguing things out of context for the sake of argument.

The difference between a whiner and constrictive criticism is people working together. And you have no intentions of doing that. You shoot down everything you see because you dont like PVP aspects of this game. And thats not very fair when people are trying to meet in the middle.

This thread should be a lot more than a he said she said. And thats all its been. There has been no other suggestions in terms of a hand shake. Just badgering and arguing semantics. Or you even getting your post edited when you told me to take a "blue pill".

You arent really contributing to the conversation. You just argue the points because you feel there does not need to be any changes. When there are 4 massive threads about the same topic going on for years. There is obviously an issue here. And instead of meeting on middle ground. You use the he said she said arguments thats been going on for quite sometime creating toxicity instead of coming together as a community.

And its quite shameful to see these actions.

The design we have now, IS the middle ground. It was debated, and designed long ago. The modes are one of the basic design tenets in the game. From the get go, all three modes were to be equal. This did not go unchallenged at that time, and equal access won out.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

The design we have now, IS the middle ground. It was debated, and designed long ago. The modes are one of the basic design tenets in the game. From the get go, all three modes were to be equal. This did not go unchallenged at that time, and equal access won out.

Ill make sure to make an appearance when these changes are made.

I used to not be like this. But I will take great pleasure in saying I told you so.

Never in a million years have I ever seen people fight against a level playing field. That would benefit even the people that are against it.

Balancing is inevitable as it is in all Games. You're seriously in for a rude awaking when it happens.

Im going to take a break from this place. Ill be back when the time is right.

Have fun!

 

[Roybe]

Ill make sure to make an appearance when these changes are made.

I used to not be like this. But I will take great pleasure in saying I told you so.

Never in a million years have I ever seen people fight against a level playing field. That would benefit even the people that are against it.

Balancing is inevitable as it is in all Games. You're seriously in for a rude awaking when it happens.

Feel free, there are many people out there that have promised to stop by....I won't be holding my breath...nor will most of the others here. The stance the devs have taken is that equality is the word of the game...not equivalence.

 

[Mohrgan]

Ill make sure to make an appearance when these changes are made.

I used to not be like this. But I will take great pleasure in saying I told you so.

Never in a million years have I ever seen people fight against a level playing field. That would benefit even the people that are against it.

Balancing is inevitable as it is in all Games. You're seriously in for a rude awaking when it happens.

Im going to take a break from this place. Ill be back when the time is right.

Have fun!

What we are fighting against is an imbalance being introduced to the playing field. We, those that oppose your ideas, just don't agree with you. You don't agree with us, why are we the bad guys? That's exactly why the choice is left to the individual to choose and/or create the in-game environment they most enjoy. You just have to accept that people see things differently to you. When and if you come to accept that, you will be at ease with others playing the way they want.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Ill make sure to make an appearance when these changes are made.

I used to not be like this. But I will take great pleasure in saying I told you so.

Never in a million years have I ever seen people fight against a level playing field. That would benefit even the people that are against it.

Balancing is inevitable as it is in all Games. You're seriously in for a rude awaking when it happens.

Im going to take a break from this place. Ill be back when the time is right.

Have fun!

You will have told us, what, exactly? I'm not being mean - what is going to be implemented to fulfill your prophecy?
Mode equality is possibly the most level playing field for a game Game balance is merely the development of code, and the thing about code is that once you've got it 90% done, you've got the other 90% still left to do.

What will happen? How will it awaken people rudely? Will it apologise afterwards?

 

[Roybe]

How about them heat sinks? How bout that heat meta? How about them hull adjustments made about 5 months ago and the weapons adjustment vs smaller and bigger ships.

Remember heat doesn't effect NPC's.

Im going to tell you the same as I told the other guy.

There are people trying to meet in the middle for game balancing. And even ziggy is trying to do that. But some people here take snippest and arguing things out of context for the sake of argument.

The difference between a whiner and constrictive criticism is people working together. And you have no intentions of doing that. You shoot down everything you see because you dont like PVP aspects of this game. And thats not very fair when people are trying to meet in the middle.

This thread should be a lot more than a he said she said. And thats all its been. There has been no other suggestions in terms of a hand shake. Just badgering and arguing semantics. Or you even getting your post edited when you told me to take a "blue pill".

You arent really contributing to the conversation. You just argue the points because you feel there does not need to be any changes. When there are 4 massive threads about the same topic going on for years. There is obviously an issue here. And instead of meeting on middle ground. You use the he said she said arguments thats been going on for quite sometime creating toxicity instead of coming together as a community.

And its quite shameful to see these actions.

You guys can continue to argue among yourselves. Ive said my piece. And I know Fdev has seen it. But I will not stop the fight for balancing. And it will happen one day. Like it, or not.

Yep...the PVP players showed imbalance in the game...and recieved some numeric changes to the way things work. <golf clap>

What the devs will not change is the way the game plays...PVP has to be side show...because it cannot be anything other than that....the game is not designed to do that...the only way it works is via movement of PVE tokens....seriously, that is all they have! Accept that fact...then decide if you can live with it.

 

[Chaparral]

It seems established that mobius, mobius pve and any other mobius derivatives are PVE "patches" for the PVE player base. If I understand the counterargument to a PVE server, it is that the pvp players will "get mad" if a PVE mode is offered. There has to be a cost benefit analysis of potential PVP players lost vs. PVE players gained if a PVE server is offered. I think this is really more of a financial decision than a game style question. It should be pretty easy to look at player history and say "X number of players quit after being killed by Y other players Z number of times". "A number of players signed up for Mobius play B number of hours where players that do not belong to Mobius play C number of hours". You could look at money spent at the skin store too. I wonder if market research on potential players actually gleans any information on PVP Open vs. PVE OPen server options. I do know that in other mmo's PVE servers tend to fill up faster than PVP servers. It would be nice to have some facts to inform this conversation.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

It would be nice to have some facts to inform this conversation.

You are serious, right? Facts. From Frontier? Like the raw data?