The Open v Solo v Groups thread

[Morbad]

That sounds like work to me, boring work, not playing a game.

More so than hauling cargo around, being a data courier, surveying planets, or even fighting in other people's wars?

The main thing that separates a game from work isn't the activity, it's the stakes.

I'm not unemployable because I don't have skills. I'm unemployable because I don't need anyone else's' money and I know it.

 

[Rebel Yell]

It’s also my belief that due to the nature of this game’s networking solution, Open Only would fail to produce the results its advocates desire, and will get even more frustrated than they are now.

They can introduce local arena-like scenarios, i.e. stronghold carriers are perfectly fitted for that... just to take an example from the current framework.

 

[Vermin]

It’s always been my belief that the usual suspects preferentially target pure-PvEers, newbies, and “crafters” because they want a guaranteed win. They will also avoid anything resembling a fair fight whenever they can. Elite Dangerous has created an environment where anyone with zero-interest in PvP are free to play the game they enjoy, while those of us with a peripheral interest in PvP, but lack the time or desire to do the extreme grinding required to fight back, can get the occasional thrill of testing our skills against another human being, while still enjoying the PvE content were actually here for.

It’s also my belief that due to the nature of this game’s networking solution, Open Only would fail to produce the results its advocates desire, and will get even more frustrated than they are now.

Regarding the first point, I can tell you with absolute certainty that anyone will do, combat or PvP built or not, people aren't that fussy about targets, they simply cannot afford to be.

The second point holds some truth however, the netcode is not fantastic, however more people in Open = more populated instances by default. More players directly equates to greater chance of occupied instances, however they do need to address how the block function is implemented as this often results in throwing instancing off rather badly due to it not just removing players from interacting with others, it also locks players out of or puts them in their own instances for both parties. Sometimes the blocked player wont be able to instance and sometimes the blocker wont be able to instance which is not ideal for anyone as it further splits the playerbase.

 

[Brrokk]

Regarding the first point, I can tell you with absolute certainty that anyone will do, combat or PvP built or not, people aren't that fussy about targets, they simply cannot afford to be.

The second point holds some truth however, the netcode is not fantastic, however more people in Open = more populated instances by default. More players directly equates to greater chance of occupied instances, however they do need to address how the block function is implemented as this often results in throwing instancing off rather badly due to it not just removing players from interacting with others, it also locks players out of or puts them in their own instances for both parties. Sometimes the blocked player wont be able to instance and sometimes the blocker wont be able to instance which is not ideal for anyone as it further splits the playerbase.

Block is essential.

In recent AX situations I've found that the best fun is in Open. You can turn up and meet half a dozen random AX players and work through a whole scenario, sharing in the sweet rewards from the hydras at the end.

Occasionally there have been gankers, who have a hugely disproportionate effect on the gameplay. Basically, the presence of just one ruins everything, and AX ships can't fight back (which of course is why he's doing it). Luckily, just blocking that one has a huge effect on instancing; we can all carry on and he won't turn up again!

It's a good effect and Open needs it to remain viable as the default play space for most of us.

 

[varonica]

Just have to point it out that SC indeed seems to have a greater lure than Elite does, and I would wager thats because of the interaction involved in its universe.

There is in fact very little to interact with!

 

[varonica]

Oh yes let's pull some more details from that site;

The freedom to explore an entire universe. The thrill of space and ground science fiction combat. The challenges of building a character's life among the stars. These are the things one can experience in the game Star Citizen.

Star Citizen's gameplay is divivded into four playable modes based on their modules. The separate modules are Arena, Commander, Murray Cup, Star Marine, and Persistent Universe (previously known as Crusader). Each module offers a different gameplay experience in the Star Citizen game"entire univese"

"Entire Universe" = A single star system with a few planets.

"Four Playable Modes" = 1 available player mode.

I note you didn't pull the yearly stats, only the last month stats. Dropped from 700k at the start of the year to 100k now.

 

[Vermin]

Block is essential.

In recent AX situations I've found that the best fun is in Open. You can turn up and meet half a dozen random AX players and work through a whole scenario, sharing in the sweet rewards from the hydras at the end.

Occasionally there have been gankers, who have a hugely disproportionate effect on the gameplay. Basically, the presence of just one ruins everything, and AX ships can't fight back (which of course is why he's doing it). Luckily, just blocking that one has a huge effect on Instancing; we can all carry on and he won't turn up again!

It's a good effect and Open needs it to remain viable as the default play space for most of us.

Hey you do you man, but i equate that to blocking anyone who might be able to beat you in any other game.

Like playing in the arena on Elden Ring for example and blocking everyone who beats you.

Its an unhealthy mindstate to sit in when competition often breeds increased skillsets.

 

[Vermin]

There is in fact very little to interact with!

I don't disagree in terms of game content, yeah. Though its very much geared towards player interaction, thats the only point I was getting at and that its a likely reason for its "success"

 

[Brrokk]

Hey you do you man, but i equate that to blocking anyone who might be able to beat you in any other game.

Like playing in the arena on Elden Ring for example and blocking everyone who beats you.

Its an unhealthy mindstate to sit in when competition often breeds increased skillsets.

It's not the same. In my example I'm not blocking someone who beats me, I'm blocking someone who spoils the game for everyone else. Yes, there are players who can't tell the difference; they're not usually much fun to play with.

 

[varonica]

Hey you do you man, but i equate that to blocking anyone who might be able to beat you in any other game.

Like playing in the arena on Elden Ring for example and blocking everyone who beats you.

Its an unhealthy mindstate to sit in when competition often breeds increased skillsets.

Sorry but that's a complete warping of the entire point, you are talking about blocking someone in "PvP competition" versus blocking someone who doesn't intend to or want to fight. It's like comparing two boxers in a boxing ring to a street assault on an unwary person walking down the road. If you are not trained and equipped to fight and in fact don't want to fight it's fine to use any methods available to avoid the fight.

 

[Darkfyre99]

If demand for open only is so high, why are people complaining about so many people playing in PG/solo? Surely they should have their hands full with all the open only proponents flying around in open! More than enough to keep them busy!

Or, if I were to go out on a limb here, either there are already a majority of PPers in open, but due to the size of the galaxy putting everyone in open wouldn't make a big difference, OR, it means that there aren't that many open only proponents. Bonus hypothesis, many stated open-only proponents are also flying in PG/Solo because what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

And that is the ultimate question!

Given that Frontier has stated that a significant majority of the player-base voluntarily choose Open to play in... and given that the cohort of players most interest in PowerPlay should be significantly more likely to choose Open compared to the general player-base... and given the near universal claim that "We bravely do our work in Open... it's everyone else that's hiding in Solo/PG!"...

Is this a case of widespread hypocricy, or is this game's networking (and cost savings) solution simply ill suited for this kind of confrontational gameplay.

My own experiences and tests indicates that it's the latter. I also sincerely hope that it truly is the latter. Because if it's the former, then as sure as water flows downhill, they'll be doing everything they can to continue to keep that "advantage," and that isn't a fun experience for anyone.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Regarding the first point, I can tell you with absolute certainty that anyone will do, combat or PvP built or not, people aren't that fussy about targets, they simply cannot afford to be.

That's funny, that's never been my experience on the PvP servers I've played. A prime example of that was following the Trammel/Feluca split in Ulitma Online. As a crafter, the safest place to do my collecting be was Feluca, AKA the PvP shard. I walked past raging PvP battles between two guilds, and never once got attacked by either side. It also helped that there was less competition for limited resources. Meanwhile, you couldn't go five minutes without being spammed by a duel request in Trammel.

Meanwhile, the few times I've gone "marauding" in THIS game, it's always been the players in combat ships that'll log out if I contact them before I go on the attack.

The second point holds some truth however, the netcode is not fantastic, however more people in Open = more populated instances by default. More players directly equates to greater chance of occupied instances, however they do need to address how the block function is implemented as this often results in throwing instancing off rather badly due to it not just removing players from interacting with others, it also locks players out of or puts them in their own instances for both parties. Sometimes the blocked player wont be able to instance and sometimes the blocker wont be able to instance which is not ideal for anyone as it further splits the playerbase.

True. But it's distinction without a difference, when I can go into a blockaded station, in Open no less, and expect to unopposed more than 90% of the time due to that same netcode. Or 95% of the time now, assuming that blockade is still ongoing.

That is mighty thin odds of oppositition, in my experience.

 

[Riverside]

It's not the same. In my example I'm not blocking someone who beats me, I'm blocking someone who spoils the game for everyone else. Yes, there are players who can't tell the difference; they're not usually much fun to play with.

I agree with your reasoning. I don't use block but I am dis-incentivised to take part in some activities because of the likelihood of 'meaningless' PvP.

The Thargoid war is/was a weird situation because fundamentally it appeared to be a PvE co-op activity best done in Open as you say but it also left no option other than PvP as a way to oppose the war or support the Thargoids & fundamentally I want to make peace not kill them. I just stayed out of it, while remaining in Open with an empty blocklist.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

But on the condition that if the said player in open who has no interaction with any other enemy player they wouldn't get the buff as it wasnt "dangerous " enough??

Totally fine with me, but how to measure "interaction" and how to avoid it being exploited for gains?

For example, in the past in this thread and others, I've raised the issue of using alt accounts to randomly blow up "opposing" power ships for easy merits.

But, if there was some way to handle it, then sure, let extra merits be rewarded for player encounters. Its worth keeping in mind that, at least in theory, there could be PGs which allow PvP, so it wouldn't have to be an open only issue, more of a PvP issue.

 

[angusmadmac1]

That raises other issues but agony aunt shot at me that's my interaction, Fdev yeah but that was because we don't like you ....
To add one thing would take other things to be done and that takes time ( look at the mat drops thread , 2 years with no interaction on the post then it gets closed and a year later we get gazillions of PI )

 

[Agony_Aunt]

More so than hauling cargo around, being a data courier, surveying planets, or even fighting in other people's wars?

Hauling cargo and data couriering is my go to when i want to chill playing and watch a film at the same time. Its a nice relaxing evening, especially combined with some beverage of the alcoholic variety.

Surveying planets i do really enjoy doing. Whether in space or going down to scan plants. Especially nice when combined with some beverage of the alcoholic variety.

I don't fight in other people's wars usually. I do fight in my own wars. Especially nice when combined with some beverage of the alcoholic variety.

The main thing that separates a game from work isn't the activity, it's the stakes.

Don't see that. There are no stakes when i'm out exploring for example. Just me, the stars, and a nice alcoholic beverage. If someone finds fun sitting in space for hours waiting for people to arrive, well, fair play to them.

I'm not unemployable because I don't have skills. I'm unemployable because I don't need anyone else's' money and I know it.

Umm...ok.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

but agony aunt shot at me

I'm a dirty little griefer!

 

[angusmadmac1]

I'm a dirty little griefer!

That's ok I don't mind ... I obviously had done some thing wrong and deserved it .

 

[Fcsuper]

The problem in Open is the imbalance created by modern dedicated PvP combat builds against literally every other build possible in the game (this is a problem for the game itself and not something wrong with any specific type of player). Skill no longer saves you (unless you are literally a top player). Some tricks still work for evasion, but you shouldn't have to rely on them because you are using quirks of game mechanics instead of just playing the game (no, not combat logging; more like dropping out of supercruise before interdiction and then high-waking out of the system). The imbalance has gotten much worse in the past couple of years. For those CMDRs who were playing in the Bubble the whole time, they may not have noticed. But, for someone who was playing outside the Bubble and returning (or returning to the game after a long pause), the difference was very stark and might discourage them from playing. New players in particular may be impacted by this too. FDEV needs a way to mitigate the imbalance. (If you want PvP only combat, then play CQC.) Since FDEV cannot take back engineering and special modules, there's several methods of mitigation possible (not limited to below):

1) Work like GTA when serial gankers are actively ganking within a star system. A CMDR can gank, but the more they gank within a particular timeframe in a particular star system, the more attention they get from local authorities until the authorities are after the CMDR so hard that the CMDR has to get out of the system or get destroyed. Of course, this won't work in anarchy systems, but why would we don't need it there anyway. This would work well for CGs.
2) Provide valid in-game evasion mechanics. I say valid because the interdiction mini-game is broke for PvP. FDEV can change it to give CMDRs an honest even-playing-field with support for effective avoidance. FDEV could also add modules that allow a CMDR some percentage to avoid interdictions completely. The bigger the module, the higher the avoidance percentage. Maybe allow the CMDR to stack modules. The CMDR who wishes to avoid engagement in Open would sacrifice a lot of space on their ship for that privilege.
3) During CG's, create categories of success that recognize CMDRs who are defending the CG participants from gankers. This would require changing how CGs are run because both defenders and gankers would have to register. Anyone that tries to disrupt a CG without registering would face idea number #1 (above).
4) Buff defensive modules, or provide new and more effective defensive modules based on Thargoid tech.

This would only apply to PvP engagement. Anyone who wants to pirate against hapless NPCs all day, let them have at it per current rules.

These are just some ideas that don't require punishing players of any game style and also do not hold gankers accountable for their choice to gank.

 

[Darkfyre99]

True. But it's distinction without a difference, when I can go into a blockaded station, in Open no less, and expect to unopposed more than 90% of the time due to that same netcode. Or 95% of the time now, assuming that blockade is still ongoing.

That is mighty thin odds of oppositition, in my experience.

Well, it seems the blockade is still ongoing, so it looks like my odds of facing opposition, during an deliberate blockade, has risen to about 7% of the time. Though I'm now one for two on escaping under fire.