The Open v Solo v Groups thread

[Agony_Aunt]

No. It's not asking for more victims. This is a continued mischaracterization, that you are on obviously doing on purpose. This current CG has produced exactly the kind of gameplay I enjoy in open as an example, and its not because there's "victims." I'm getting blown up in ship and on foot a bunch and it's a blast.

Once you realize that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of my motives, there might be a productive conversation to be had. But while you continue to shadow box "muh evil ganker who wants to seal club" you offer no value.

So, the game is providing you with what you want already? So, there is no need for this to change.

Its quite clear that with Open being the post popular mode by far (FD's own words), that making everyone play in open wouldn't change things significantly for those seeking PvP interactions, because outside events and popular locations, space is big, and you rarely see anyone anyway, even if everyone was playing in open. If open only was enforced for specific features or across the board, all that would happen is those who don't want to engage in PvP would either:

a) Quit the game
b) Not go to busy locations or events
c) Build extensive block lists or use other methods to avoid instancing
d) Most likely restrict their play to remote systems where meeting other players (or at least PvPers) is very unlikely

This would not change the experience for you and others like you, but it would change the experience for many who currently enjoy the game as it is and quite possibly hurt FD's revenue.

There is also instancing to take into consideration, and you only need a few dozen people in open to ensure that you are seeing as many people at a time as you are likely to see in busy locations.

Overall, you're asking for a change that will result in only negatives for those who don't want PvP with no significant change for those who do.

Actually, probably worse in some ways. What do you think will happen to the PP dynamics if most PvEers stopped doing it? It would become static. PvPers don't really affect PP while doing PvP activities, they will have to do the actual PvE work, which some might enjoy, hauling goods in their FdLs or whatever... have to give up some internal slots though for cargo or utility modules to actually do the PP stuff. And even then, what for, its not likely the number of players is going to be filling many buckets.

 

[Morbad]

Honest question: do you feel at least a bit relieved after you poured out here how unhappy you are with the game

I can't speak for Cheese, but I sure like to argue, at least when the arguments don't degenerate into purely circular ones or revolve around baseless presumptions.

Or stay and accept the game isn't what you wanted

Or stay, accept the game is what it is, and still acknowledge it could be something better.

I can have my cake and complain about the taste too.

 

[Doctor Dread]

PvPers don't really affect PP while doing PvP activities, they will have to do the actual PvE work, which some might enjoy, hauling goods in their FdLs or whatever...

You had me there
As I said, this thread is fun.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Or stay, accept the game is what it is, and still acknowledge it could be something better.

I can have my cake and complain about the taste too.

Indeed - noting that the definition of "something better" differs between players, e.g. some players would like to see an official PvE game mode added in parallel to the existing Open (PvP enabled) mode.

We've been sharing the cake for a long time now but only Frontier can change the recipe, or add more optional sprinkles.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Or stay, accept the game is what it is, and still acknowledge it could be something better.

... different from what many people enjoy and that certain people might prefer.

 

[Morbad]

No need to repeatedly point out the subjectivity of an implicitly subjective topic, or anything else that is so completely self-evident.

 

[Jockey79]

Indeed - noting that the definition of "something better" differs between players, e.g. some players would like to see an official PvE game mode added in parallel to the existing Open (PvP enabled) mode.

We've been sharing the cake for a long time now but only Frontier can change the recipe, or add more optional sprinkles.

You know what would make the game "better"?

Link forum accounts to game accounts

Because there hasn't been a new excuse (aka "reason") from them since 2016 on why the game (or a single feature) should be open only, and every one they gave then was debunked at the time, or FDev already said no.

This whole topic should be a forum ban offence by now. Because it has been asked and answered again and again for 10 years.
They've had their answer; they are just annoying us for their amusement now.

 

[Ozric]

This is just yet another casual reminder to ease up on each other please. People are allowed to enjoy the game differently to how you do, respect that. There's no need to resort to abusive language or petty name calling.

This whole topic should be a forum ban offence by now.

And yet here you all still are... chasing each other in circles...

 

[Cheese Helmet]

So, the game is providing you with what you want already? So, there is no need for this to change.

Until the CG ends in a week or so, hence the existence of the issue.

Its quite clear that with Open being the post popular mode by far (FD's own words), that making everyone play in open wouldn't change things significantly for those seeking PvP interactions, because outside events and popular locations, space is big, and you rarely see anyone anyway, even if everyone was playing in open.

Yes you've stated this before. I'm aware space is big. I'm aware of instancing, time zones, etc. since you're repeating yourself, allow me to do the the same. Given that space is big, etc, a whole other added layer on top of the myriad of reasons running into people also doing powerplay is difficult is unnecessary.

If open only was enforced for specific features or across the board, all that would happen is those who don't want to engage in PvP would either:

a) Quit the game
b) Not go to busy locations or events
c) Build extensive block lists or use other methods to avoid instancing
d) Most likely restrict their play to remote systems where meeting other players (or at least PvPers) is very unlikely

This would not change the experience for you and others like you, but it would change the experience for many who currently enjoy the game as it is and quite possibly hurt FD's revenue.

There is also instancing to take into consideration, and you only need a few dozen people in open to ensure that you are seeing as many people at a time as you are likely to see in busy locations.

Good thing powerplay doesn't focus on only one key system like a CG, but rather pushes players into a larger handful of key contested ones week to week.

Overall, you're asking for a change that will result in only negatives for those who don't want PvP with no significant change for those who do.

And? Not every suggestion needs to cater to you as well. Was I upset when exploration was given the FSS update even though it provides no change for me since thats something I'm not interested in? No. Others getting something they want, while I get nothing isn't a slight against me. There is negative being added for people who don't want PVP, since nothing is stopping them from avoiding it, with my suggestion. You can't claim it's unavoidable AND at the same time all these reasons why people still aren't guaranteed to see each other. Either one is true or the other is true. Not both.

Actually, probably worse in some ways. What do you think will happen to the PP dynamics if most PvEers stopped doing it? It would become static. PvPers don't really affect PP while doing PvP activities, they will have to do the actual PvE work, which some might enjoy, hauling goods in their FdLs or whatever... have to give up some internal slots though for cargo or utility modules to actually do the PP stuff. And even then, what for, its not likely the number of players is going to be filling many buckets.

Do you think PVP players don't also do PvE? Obviously we play the whole game. This is a non issue.

 

[Cheese Helmet]

Or stay and accept the game isn't what you wanted, even though all the information you needed was there before you bought the game. But ok, we all make mistakes, but just because you don't like something don't try and change it for everyone that does.

Indeed we do all make mistakes. Yours is assuming I don't accept the game for what it is. I do or I wouldn't play it for several thousand hours, but that doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion.

Powerplay would be better if it was only effected by open. That opinion isn't changing. I've had this conversation before, just as you have.

 

[DireWood]

My one gripe with PvP in Elite, is that there is no real punishment for the gankers. If you go commit a murder IRL, you will be wanted by police and hunted down. In Elite? Nah, you're good. If you are prepared to gank another player, then the repercussions should fit the crime.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

And? Not every suggestion needs to cater to you as well. Was I upset when exploration was given the FSS update even though it provides no change for me since thats something I'm not interested in? No. Others getting something they want, while I get nothing isn't a slight against me. There is negative being added for people who don't want PVP, since nothing is stopping them from avoiding it, with my suggestion. You can't claim it's unavoidable AND at the same time all these reasons why people still aren't guaranteed to see each other. Either one is true or the other is true. Not both.

Well from explorers viewpoint one can argue was it update or downgrade. Before FSS just one "honk" would have:
a. Discover every body in system.
b. Made rather easy to see if there is something valuable for further scanning.

Now, well when you understand what FSS spectrum means you can see on one look if there is anything valuable, but actually discovering bodies takes a while. And then you'd need to fly close for further scanning anyways if there is anything interesting.

 

[Cheese Helmet]

My one gripe with PvP in Elite, is that there is no real punishment for the gankers. If you go commit a murder IRL, you will be wanted by police and hunted down. In Elite? Nah, you're good. If you are prepared to gank another player, then the repercussions should fit the crime.

If you have a big bounty and lots of notoriety, NPC bounty hunters do chase you all over and interdict you, but it's just an annoyance at best.

Imo the better thing to tackle is improving what security levels mean. You're a pilots federation pilot, which comes with special privileges (that's the lore reason why when you blow up you're recovered). So why not extend those privileges?

I think systems with a security level should have system security send the player a wing request up on entering and then they fly with you to your destination. The higher the security, the more lethal more engineered the ships are that accompany you. Then if you, as a clean CMDR, are interdicted, a wing drops with you, rather than responds after the fact. If you're not clean, your in the anonymous access like usual and you don't get the benefit. Give the NPC security a seeker grom missile, etc.

Make security matter more, and it can change the matth for a ganker.

 

[Cheese Helmet]

Well from explorers viewpoint one can argue was it update or downgrade. Before FSS just one "honk" would have:
a. Discover every body in system.
b. Made rather easy to see if there is something valuable for further scanning.

Now, well when you understand what FSS spectrum means you can see on one look if there is anything valuable, but actually discovering bodies takes a while. And then you'd need to fly close for further scanning anyways if there is anything interesting.

Yeah I've tried it and know how it works. But this is beside the point.

 

[SteveWW57]

Indeed we do all make mistakes. Yours is assuming I don't accept the game for what it is. I do or I wouldn't play it for several thousand hours, but that doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion.

Powerplay would be better if it was only effected by open. That opinion isn't changing. I've had this conversation before, just as you have.

If you have been playing for several thousand hours, then it is likely that you would have been aware of the numerous suggestions for improvement over the years and the various responses. Your recent contribution seems to have sparked a major uptick in comments. And Osric stated, "And yet here you all still are... chasing each other in circles..."

I am guilty of contributing to the page count, but there is no stake to end this matter for good. And to improve our minds.

If change comes, change comes. For good or bad.

 

[Morbad]

My one gripe with PvP in Elite, is that there is no real punishment for the gankers.

There is no punishment in Elite. The game's consequence mechanisms started off soft and rapidly got softer.

Losses stemming from PvP have never been treated any different from any other loss and probably never will. The global consequence mechanisms, and the mechanisms that enable losses to be inflicted in the first place would need to change for there to be a credible deterrence to ganking.

Of course, by the time dedicated gankers are hit with consequences from a universal system in this game, plenty of more casual players will have had their CMDRs repeatedly bankrupted.

If you go commit a murder IRL, you will be wanted by police and hunted down.

If one is identified, which happens in about half of homicide cases in developed nations, and much, much less frequently in less developed areas. There are certainly some exceptions...Germany, where something like an astounding 90% of murders are solved, being a good example, but most of the world isn't Germany, or even Chicago (where only ~35% of murders even result in an arrest). Most places you have kill a ton of people, be profoundly reckless, or kill someone with a ton of money, for a conviction to be likely. Quality investigation is damn hard work and a large fraction of law enforcement personnel are moronic flunkies, or irredeemably corrupt; the rest are overworked and underpaid.

In Elite? Nah, you're good. If you are prepared to gank another player, then the repercussions should fit the crime.

Crime and punishment in Elite: Dangerous is simultaneously omniscient and toothless. In the real world, convictions for crimes are fairly rare (most individual crimes are never solved), but the punishments are often extremely harsh (well, at least for blue-collar crime). In Elite convictions are automatic and the punishment is essentially nonexistent. This is totally backwards and one of several reason C&P feels wrong.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

If you have a big bounty and lots of notoriety, NPC bounty hunters do chase you all over and interdict you, but it's just an annoyance at best.

Imo the better thing to tackle is improving what security levels mean. You're a pilots federation pilot, which comes with special privileges (that's the lore reason why when you blow up you're recovered). So why not extend those privileges?

I think systems with a security level should have system security send the player a wing request up on entering and then they fly with you to your destination. The higher the security, the more lethal more engineered the ships are that accompany you. Then if you, as a clean CMDR, are interdicted, a wing drops with you, rather than responds after the fact. If you're not clean, your in the anonymous access like usual and you don't get the benefit. Give the NPC security a seeker grom missile, etc.

Make security matter more, and it can change the matth for a ganker.

That might change things somewhat. My biggest beef with PVP is that it currently is immersion breaking. Like getting ganked in supposedly most secure systems in Galaxy. And culprit can operate without any really nasty manhunt.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Previous single player versions and ED in solo are consistent on that regard. You can find game produced trouble, but it means putting your nose to nasty systems deliberately. In FFE probability of getting serious pirate attack in say SOL was quite small.

 

[Cheese Helmet]

That might change things somewhat. My biggest beef with PVP is that it currently is immersion breaking. Like getting ganked in supposedly most secure systems in Galaxy. And culprit can operate without any really nasty manhunt.

Yeah I generally agree that there should be more proactive security, especially in high sec.

As far as the immersion point, it poses an interesting question though. Would there be a massive manhunt? How wide? It starts bringing into play the various factions/authorities interests and the bigger question of the value of a single life in the galaxy with trillions of lives where a space station executes you for loitering lol. Definitely a fun one to dissect from an in game world perspective.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Until the CG ends in a week or so, hence the existence of the issue.

Yes you've stated this before. I'm aware space is big. I'm aware of instancing, time zones, etc. since you're repeating yourself, allow me to do the the same. Given that space is big, etc, a whole other added layer on top of the myriad of reasons running into people also doing powerplay is difficult is unnecessary.


Good thing powerplay doesn't focus on only one key system like a CG, but rather pushes players into a larger handful of key contested ones week to week.


And? Not every suggestion needs to cater to you as well. Was I upset when exploration was given the FSS update even though it provides no change for me since thats something I'm not interested in? No. Others getting something they want, while I get nothing isn't a slight against me. There is negative being added for people who don't want PVP, since nothing is stopping them from avoiding it, with my suggestion. You can't claim it's unavoidable AND at the same time all these reasons why people still aren't guaranteed to see each other. Either one is true or the other is true. Not both.

Do you think PVP players don't also do PvE? Obviously we play the whole game. This is a non issue.

You clearly didn't follow the logic of my post with your responses.

Let me make it simple. The overall thrust of it is that making it open only wouldn't significantly improve anything for those who want it, while making it significantly worse for those who don't.

Sure, some open only proponents do the PvE, even love the PvE, but the whole onus of PP will be on those doing PvE, and the numbers will be significantly reduced, so your "non-issue" is a real issue, unless FD tweak the number to cater to a much smaller playerbase interacting with PP.