The Open v Solo v Groups thread

[Brrokk]

...

though one thought occured to me
if playing bgs and pp in solo is perfectly fine because it isnt against the rules of the game, what rules are murderhobos in murderboats breaking that they deserve so animosity?

I think that's a misunderstanding. Murderhoboes don't get animosity, or at least it's ineffective water off the duck's back if they do. We all know they bought the game and they can play it however they like.

But the game gives the rest of us the tools we need to avoid them. This whole debate is kept going by that one simple fact: some players don't want to be avoided; they want to get into everyone else's play.

That's the source of the "Open-only" suggestions every single time.

 

[Darkfyre99]

so if a murderhobo in a murderboat murdermurders someone but doesnt want to push for open only, does he deserve hate or not?

As long as they’re they’re not using cheats, bots, exploits, abusive language, harassment, and doesn’t pull the plug in the face of death, then they’re playing the game as intended, and are welcome to try to kill me. Whether they succeed is another matter entirely.

A hypothesis of mine is that the reason why that kind of player is rather rare in this game, compared to similar MMOs I’ve played in the past, is due to fact that the players that such a player can easily kill don’t play in Open, leaving a large open population that is either hard to kill, or look upon such a player as an easy kill themselves. Such an environment is not their definition of fun, even if it is everyone else’s.

edit: fixed typo

 

[Fizzatron]

Is open really open ?
Do we all instance together?
Do we all play together at the same time ?
Are the blocking facilities switched off ?
If the answer is no to any of them then Open in America west coast is hiding from the Brits who are in turn hiding from the Australians .
Open can't handle all the players at the same time someone would eventually be hiding ( intentionally or not) from someone else.
So the question is a moot point There isn't just one open there are multiple opens along with multiple PG and multiple Solo players.

I think this answers around 90% of the issues. Unless a group is going for 24/7 coverage, but even then block lists and instancing factor in.

recently traffic spiked from 0-5 on inara to 30-40+ and our squadron was pushed to retreat, which forced our hand and system is now in the process of federal recapture.
yet there is noone to be seen in the system. my squad is pulling moves (just from missions we pull ~50inf per cmdr daily) yet our inf is tanking, negative system states are piling up, settlement is being shut down (without the actual shutdown state ofc, because game is good). and the system ingame is still vacant of commanders.

i wish we could talk to these people, find out whats going on, whats their motive, maybe find some diplomatic solution. (if they just wanted to support this cool faction in a cool system im sure we could find some agreement of coexistence, as we had with others in the past)
and, of course, i also wish that if you are causing problems for me and pushing me to a show of force that i would be able to face you and try to stop you.

Do you know for sure whether the above point about this group playing at a time when your group isn't would be a reason? Even if not, I think what you say makes a good point in regards to being able to communicate in-game in situations like this, or at least prevent anonymity, that I hope PP V2 might help with.

i think elite is unique in many ways. one being solo/open existing side by side, interconnected by the world yet separate by instancing. its not like you can fire up a ranked game of counter strike without opponents, waddle through the map, plant the bomb and make everyone else on the enemy team lose without them being able to do anything about it, or even knowing about it until its too late.

There are more differences in Counterstrike vs Elite that really do not allow that analogy to work.

i think elite was made in time when online gaming wasnt that prevalent and when all the issues that come with it werent that known. therefore the system doesnt account for them like many newer games do.

What are those ways, or are you referring to just splitting PVP/PVE/Solo to their own independent server?

I get it, my argument is endlessly reduced to I just want pvp no matter how many times I state the opposite. I am a murder hobo pretending to care about fairness and I just want to ruin everyone's day.

It might be frustrating to be lumped in with a group you feel does not represent you, and that's wholly understandable, however, it's worth considering the possibility that even though say you aren't a murderhobo, the change you wish to see could result in unwanted benefits to this particular group that others would not want to see.

For myself, I find that without being able to enforce a 24/7 system blockade with enough resources to repel all counter activity to your group does make a lot of the issues of Player Group/Solo activity moot. Now, if there was a mechanic where one could recruit/enlist NPCs to create an overwhelming force that could be pitted against one another which transcended game modes and had a magnifying effect on system states, it's possible that via this, actions in all modes wouldn't necessarily count as much in the greater scheme of things. But that would require a direct way to influence a system, which I think would be a rather massive undertaking to implement beyond the scope of PP V2, if I understand that correctly.

 

[Shadowsnog]

Murderhoboes don't get animosity

really? im getting animosity here just for saying i wish i could face my opponents. and people in here seem to be very open about their emotional stance towards these players.
and all i did was just answer helmuts question and i did it only because it was helmut. maybe after these encounters i should conduct my further activites in solo dms to avoid the murderchatters in their murderemotionalfloats.
i guess being hostile on the forum is ok, but being hostile in the videogame isnt.

Do you know for sure whether the above point about this group playing at a time when your group isn't would be a reason?

we have had ~24hr coverage in the system over multiple days. am i 100% sure? im a reasonable person who doesnt like to spin stories, so the answer is of course no. is there a chance that we might have missed each other with the tens of commanders that should be there? of course.
but our empyrical evidence says that this kind of vacancy isnt accidental.

For myself, I find that without being able to enforce a 24/7 system blockade with enough resources to repel all counter activity to your group does make a lot of the issues of Player Group/Solo activity moot. Now, if there was a mechanic where one could recruit/enlist NPCs to create an overwhelming force that could be pitted against one another which transcended game modes and had a magnifying effect on system states, it's possible that via this, actions in all modes wouldn't necessarily count as much in the greater scheme of things. But that would require a direct way to influence a system, which I think would be a rather massive undertaking to implement beyond the scope of PP V2, if I understand that correctly.

indeed

 

[Brrokk]

really? im getting animosity here just for saying i wish i could face my opponents. and people in here seem to be very open about their emotional stance towards these players.
and all i did was just answer helmuts question and i did it only because it was helmut. maybe after these encounters i should conduct my further activites in solo dms to avoid the murderchatters in their murderemotionalfloats.
i guess being hostile on the forum is ok, but being hostile in the videogame isnt.


we have had ~24hr coverage in the system over multiple days. am i 100% sure? im a reasonable person who doesnt like to spin stories, so the answer is of course no. is there a chance that we might have missed each other with the tens of commanders that should be there? of course.
but our empyrical evidence says that this kind of vacancy isnt accidental.

indeed

But you're not a murderhoboe (AFAIK). I wouldn't say you're getting animosity either, just people disagreeing with you.

The disagreement is simply that you want some other people to play in Open but they don't want to. You want to face opponents; not everyone wants to be your opponent. That's all it is; a disagreement about what the fundamental nature of the game should be. It's the disagreement that powers this whole immense thread.

You're getting disagreement (not animosity) because some of us like the game as it is and don't want it to change.

 

[Jockey79]

really? im getting animosity here just for saying i wish i could face my opponents.

Translation : I want to murderhobo and cannot find victims.

and people in here seem to be very open about their emotional stance towards these players.

Because right from day 1 on the Kickstarter page, the mode system was advertised. Before you could buy the game.
You bought the game, with the advertised feature then took to complaining about the feature.

We are not the ones with an "emotional stance". We are just fed up with toxic people trying to ruin the game that was advertised.

and all i did was just answer helmuts question and i did it only because it was helmut. maybe after these encounters i should conduct my further activites in solo dms to avoid the murderchatters in their murderemotionalfloats.
i guess being hostile on the forum is ok, but being hostile in the videogame isn't.

People are not being "hostile" at all.
People are fed up with the fact you (and others like you) knew about the mode system BEFORE you parted with any money.
You bought the game anyway and now you want to disrupt other people's fun.

We are not demanding you give up PvP, but you are demanding we give up our PvE
You're the one being hostile towards us and some of us are fed up with it.

we have had ~24hr coverage in the system over multiple days. am i 100% sure?

That doesn't matter, open mode is still instanced and you can never see everyone in open mode.
So there will always be people in the same system as you, at the same time as you - you will never see.

im a reasonable person

The evidence disagrees.

You bought a mixed-mode game, then complained about the mixed modes.
That isn't reasonable behaviour.

but our empyrical evidence

You don't have any. Only Frontier does and they don't share it.
You have a subjective view of what you think happened, as you have no idea how many people in open mode flew right past you because the game wouldn't put you in the same instance.

 

[Shadowsnog]

But you're not a murderhoboe (AFAIK).

no im not (afaik) yet some people dont waste a second to assume. post after yours is a great example.
in my op i acknowledged reasons for not playing in open and endorsed them. yet im being called names, people criticize me based off what other people said... im being disected just to be attacked. id say thats pretty hostile environment.
i did not ever argue for open only, this is (supposed to be) thread about discussing open solo and pg and i do believe i did that.
i got for that some disagreement, some harassment, both seemed to be based on a wrong presumptions.
i respected all solo/pg people and all their reasons.
after this past day i respect most of solo/pg people and their reasons.

 

[Jockey79]

before i came to this thread to post ive had my suspicions, but holy moly...

No, you came to the thread thinking you could post your views, and demands, and pretend to have evidence of something without anyone calling you out.
You were wrong.

Fact; People could fly past you in open mode and you'll never see them - so you do not know the mode split for any victory or loss, only Frontier knows
Fact; The mode system was part of the game since BEFORE you could buy it

And I've made no assumptions about you, the only people who demand more victims in open mode are gankers/muderhobos.
Real PvP'ers are happy to have willing victims and do not want unwilling victims. You want unwilling victims.

1+1=2

 

[Felix DiCestria]

And I've made no assumptions about you, the only people who demand more victims in open mode are gankers/muderhobos.
Real PvP'ers are happy to have willing victims and do not want unwilling victims. You want unwilling victims.

1+1=2

He says whilst making a false assumption...
Seriously mate wind it in, you're not doing anyone any favours.

 

[angusmadmac1]

So the issue is there are two opens in EDO the live game EDO full and EDO lite ( no on foot ) that affects BGS /PP. So if you are hiding in EDO full and they are using EDO lite ?? ( It used to be worse when we had Xbox and PS opens as well )
As I have said in past posts .
Open is your instance on your game you have a small chance that someone may instance with you . I sometimes can't instance with friends ??
Even in CQC the instancing is pants and very few visit that area because of that reason . So what hope do you have of being in the "right" instance ?
Lastly you lose BGS because the pots aren't filled as much as the enemy , you lose one day you up your potfilling the next till you start winning and then hope whoever is doing gets bored or goes on holiday .
And if you do catch them and blow you up they block you and hey presto you won't ever meet again even if you both are in open.
Yeah it would be nice to see who is messing but it's not essential or necessary.

 

[Fizzatron]

we have had ~24hr coverage in the system over multiple days. am i 100% sure? im a reasonable person who doesnt like to spin stories, so the answer is of course no. is there a chance that we might have missed each other with the tens of commanders that should be there? of course.
but our empyrical evidence says that this kind of vacancy isnt accidental.

Appreciate that clarification. o7

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

Yes, thats it. I am a member of the Marlinist Auxilia Forces and, in case you know about the ongoing conflict with CEC and its allies, our opponents are almost only acting in solo or pg. But we do not complain, we just try to do more missions, more trade, more explo as this is the way to win. A nice (orchestrated) pvp fight could be fun, but would not affect the BGS in any meaningfull way.

Au contraire. When I helped the Marlinists out in the early days (when things were really bad with CEC and their far larger ally), while their leader was all for open, almost the entirety of the Marlinist base were in solo/PG, while those helping (what became AMI) were generally in open. CEC players were at times visible (Russian instancing I guess hides a multitude of "sins"), and their large ally were largely in open it seemed. The things that made me quit - being told to "just work in solo" by some Marlinist lead because I encountered a wing of enemies, and the frequent contemporaneous denigration of CEC and even their ally for utilising solo/PG - you couldn't make it up. No sympathy for CEC, and I still support the Marlinists in a lore sense, and would consider helping again in dire straits, but it was just so lame. Of course they must have realised eventually because they tidied their solo players away into internal channels while people like me were tidied into an outsiders' pen.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

Or look at Open being a disadvantage, that's the choice folks can have.

O7

I like these acknowledgements of the problem of balance across modes - modes should be a free choice, not one incentivised over the other.

 

[Screemonster]

He says whilst making a false assumption...
Seriously mate wind it in, you're not doing anyone any favours.

I seriously wonder how many times the people who keep posting scare stories about open and gankers have ever played in open or seen a ganker, versus how much of it is boogeyman tales.

If you go on the reddit you'll sometimes see posts from people meeting their first pvp encounter and actually enjoying the surprise, and the replies are full of "THIS SORT OF THING IS WHY IN NEVER PLAY IN OPEN, THE KIND OF PEOPLE WHO DO THIS ARE THE SORTS WHO TORTURE ANIMALS FOR FUN", it's getting to the point where I genuinely believe the pvp community as a whole could just... stop one day and all they'd have to do is spin up an alt to make an "I got ganked" thread every couple of weeks to keep people frothing.

 

[Shadowsnog]

I seriously wonder how many times the people who keep posting scare stories about open and gankers have ever played in open or seen a ganker, versus how much of it is boogeyman tales.

If you go on the reddit you'll sometimes see posts from people meeting their first pvp encounter and actually enjoying the surprise, and the replies are full of "THIS SORT OF THING IS WHY IN NEVER PLAY IN OPEN, THE KIND OF PEOPLE WHO DO THIS ARE THE SORTS WHO TORTURE ANIMALS FOR FUN", it's getting to the point where I genuinely believe the pvp community as a whole could just... stop one day and all they'd have to do is spin up an alt to make an "I got ganked" thread every couple of weeks to keep people frothing.

after the gold rush cg for empire i made 'blockade buster' ships so that i can play all next cgs in open. and i did. so far ive been pulled by a ganker once (and i almost won [in a meme build])

 

[SergMx]

I seriously wonder how many times the people who keep posting scare stories about open and gankers have ever played in open or seen a ganker, versus how much of it is boogeyman tales.

If you go on the reddit you'll sometimes see posts from people meeting their first pvp encounter and actually enjoying the surprise, and the replies are full of "THIS SORT OF THING IS WHY IN NEVER PLAY IN OPEN, THE KIND OF PEOPLE WHO DO THIS ARE THE SORTS WHO TORTURE ANIMALS FOR FUN", it's getting to the point where I genuinely believe the pvp community as a whole could just... stop one day and all they'd have to do is spin up an alt to make an "I got ganked" thread every couple of weeks to keep people frothing.

The thing is, those people being attacked are playing the game, doing missions, etc.
Gankers, usually on ships on which you can only gank, don't play the game, and worst of all they get bunched up in the wings. No matter how good a player is, he will always lose to a link. Might actually be able to escape ...

 

[Robert Maynard]

The thing is, those people being attacked are playing the game, doing missions, etc.
Gankers, usually on ships on which you can only gank, don't play the game, and worst of all they get bunched up in the wings. No matter how good a player is, he will always lose to a link. Might actually be able to escape ...

So the best outcome for a player disinterested in the ganker mini-game is a waste of their time.

 

[angusmadmac1]

I seriously wonder how many times the people who keep posting scare stories about open and gankers have ever played in open or seen a ganker, versus how much of it is boogeyman tales.

If you go on the reddit you'll sometimes see posts from people meeting their first pvp encounter and actually enjoying the surprise, and the replies are full of "THIS SORT OF THING IS WHY IN NEVER PLAY IN OPEN, THE KIND OF PEOPLE WHO DO THIS ARE THE SORTS WHO TORTURE ANIMALS FOR FUN", it's getting to the point where I genuinely believe the pvp community as a whole could just... stop one day and all they'd have to do is spin up an alt to make an "I got ganked" thread every couple of weeks to keep people frothing.

I don't post scare stories but have had certain "interactions". But I am the sort of person who looks both ways when crossing a one way street ?
It's easy checked in inara in the security so we have shindez with high traffic, Decait with very low traffic ?? On the medium threat ?? Ohh who is there ?? One of the first engineers ? And that is the same medium threat PVP fights in Puppis are held.
So no not just scared stories .

 

[Riverside]

The thing is, those people being attacked are playing the game, doing missions, etc.
Gankers, usually on ships on which you can only gank, don't play the game, and worst of all they get bunched up in the wings. No matter how good a player is, he will always lose to a link. Might actually be able to escape ...

Other players you meet are playing the game in a way that's fun for them, or engaging, or cathartic, whatever. The game offers ways for you to play how you like too & you can change your mind & play a different way any time (don't combat log though).

 

[Brrokk]

I seriously wonder how many times the people who keep posting scare stories about open and gankers have ever played in open or seen a ganker, versus how much of it is boogeyman tales.

If you go on the reddit you'll sometimes see posts from people meeting their first pvp encounter and actually enjoying the surprise, and the replies are full of "THIS SORT OF THING IS WHY IN NEVER PLAY IN OPEN, THE KIND OF PEOPLE WHO DO THIS ARE THE SORTS WHO TORTURE ANIMALS FOR FUN", it's getting to the point where I genuinely believe the pvp community as a whole could just... stop one day and all they'd have to do is spin up an alt to make an "I got ganked" thread every couple of weeks to keep people frothing.

I don't think I've seen a scare story for years; definitely not in this forum although I don't follow Reddit. All the "pressure" on this issue comes from the other direction, from people who don't like being ignored.