Having one's CMDR attacked by another CMDR is just playing the game, and would just be playing the game, even for those who are PvP adverse or intolerant, in exactly the same way that being attacked by an NPC is just part of playing the game, even for those who are combat intolerant. It's not a personal attack upon another player, unless it's also a case of harassment, which is against the rules in any mode via any mechanism.
The Open v Solo v Groups thread
- Thread starter Ozric
- Start date
Having one's CMDR attacked by another CMDR is just playing the game, and would just be playing the game, even for those who are PvP adverse or intolerant, in exactly the same way that being attacked by an NPC is just part of playing the game, even for those who are combat intolerant. It's not a personal attack upon another player, unless it's also a case of harassment, which is against the rules in any mode via any mechanism.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Doesn't matter what the attackers want. Those who they would target don't need to play among them.
Just because it is within the rules of the game does not mean that anyone needs to present themself as a target for others (regardless of how much fun those others take from destroying player targets).
Which is all beside the point. You've said nothing that hasn't been a reiteration of how the game is. We all know how the game is.
I want to know what, beyond the arbitrary mode dichotomy we have, makes unwanted PvP any different from unwanted anything else. Pointing out that the game treats them differently doesn't tell me anything. I know the game treats them differently. If it didn't, there wouldn't be any question of why.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
It's not at all beside the point for those who chose to buy the game because other players cannot force PvP on them.
Unwanted PvP is just that unwanted. As the attacker is under no obligation to offer the target an enjoyable experience, neither is the target under any obligation not to menu exit and block the attacker. All three elements are part of Open play.
If something is not fun then players tend not to do it, and being targeted for unwanted PvP is clearly in the not-fun category for some players.
There seems to be some idea that players should not be able to opt out of itsiPvP, or that those who enjoy PvP should be able to force their gameplay choices on other players.
Put differently, some players don't like to be forced to interact with other players, by those other players.
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The majority of us are really happy with that, we have our mode choice, the only ones constantly complaining are those who want to force folks to play 'their' mode because of the obvious lack of targets.
O7
I was referring to the ur-issue that PvP players want PvE players to engage in PvP with them, which never, ever works. If a game has a way to avoid that, they'll take it. If it doesn't, they simply won't play it. Making any part of the game Open only would simply mean a lot of people would ignore it. It would not mean more players in Open.
Unless your problem is that you think only your way to engage in PP is the correct one and no one should be allowed to do it any other way, which, well, sounds like a you problem. As others have said, it's been over a decade. All modes being valid for all areas of gameplay is not going to stop happening now.
Again, how is this any different if you replace 'PvP' with anything else?
I don't think most of those advocating Open-only anything want PvP intolerant players to engage in PvP with them. I think they want PvP to be a viable means of engaging with the gameplay they prefer, without it automatically being a handicap. The implications of any system that actually enabled this would be to exclude those PvP intolerant players, but again, I'm not sure why PvP intolerance is something that needs to be catered to more than insertanythinghere-intolerance.
PvP is actually my only way to engage in PP, because my CMDR will not pledge to any Power.
My CMDR has plenty of contextual reason to actively dislike every Power, though some are more offensive than others. PP also has a significant impact on the setting my CMDR exists within and is subject to, but without signing up for a faction, one cannot contribute merits. So, the only agency I have is inflicting some degree of attrition by attacking the odd PP CMDR when the opportunity presents itself.
I'm not an Open only advocate. I don't think such a system can work without numerous pre-requisites that are beyond FDev's current will and ability to implement, but I would definitely appreciate the ability to oppose Powers without having to have my CMDR enlist. I also understand the desire for the ability to directly engage one's foes on one's own terms, rather than being forced to engage in monotonous bucket filling contests to be effective.
Stop happening? It's never happened. You just gave an example of where Open was a decidly less valid mode for CGs in your previous post.
The modes are not and cannot be wholly equal by the very nature of what they are. Exclude certain interactions and the scope of gamplay that's possible changes.
Even if we ignore the intrinsic nature of the modes themselves, there is still precident for FDev specifically incentivising one mode over the others. You've been around long enough to recall the 'Race to Elite' and the win an NVIDIA Titan Black contests...both of which were required to have been done in Open. Not saying either of these contests were good things or something to repeat, but they are overt examples of Frontier trying to push one mode over the others.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Simple, it's because it's a player forcing their gameplay directly on another player.
You tend to trivialize unwanted PvP encounters versus unwanted PvE ones, but there is a clear difference. For one, the game rarely if ever sends NPCs after a player that are way above their station, skill or progress level unless the player specifically asks for it - like accepting pirate lord or certain massacre missions, which can be a pain if you're underprepared or stack too many of them. But for that to happen, the player literally has to ask the game to do that. In that sense, there is rarely ever any "unwanted PvE encounters. If you just fly around, no missions, no cargo, just sight seeing, the game environment leaves you alone.
For unwanted PvP, all the player has to do is be at the wrong place at the wrong time in the wrong mode. PvP players, especially those of the annoying ganky persuasion, only leave you alone if you don't leave the hangar in open.
Now I know what the counter argument will be - being in a certain place under certain circumstances is the player "asking for it". But in my opinion, that's a typical semantic argument trying to trivialize and invalidate the difference between PvP and PvE the way a probably not too small portion of the players see it.
Has been a long time since NPC gankers. Remember those "free gold" signal sources. Those were nearest of npc gankers. And still you needed to be proactive to get hit.
That's another tautology that doesn't even try to answer my question.
What is it about a player forcing their gameplay on another player that makes it less acceptable than any other aspect of the game being forced upon a player? Why is an effect imposed by a player different or worse than a similar effect being imposed by anything else?
The counter argument is that this you are implying that the difference is largely one of difficulty, which implies that sufficient NPC difficulty would negate the difference between PvP and PvE...and it mostly would, for me, but I'm almost certainly a fairly extreme outlier in this regard. Difficulty does not seem to be the overriding distinction for most PvP averse types.
Regardless, there are plenty of examples recent of unwanted PvE combat encounters and the game was often considerably less forgiving in the past, with the the same PvP/PvE dichotomy being brought up with similar frequency. In the early game, many an unwary CMDR was hit with a 'gold trap' (lone CMDR gets jumped by eight higher rank Vultures for investigating a signal source and scooping a can of gold), as one example, and even the current game still has the occasional NPC pirate/ganker attack upon ships with no cargo racks and no bounties. Your criteria are not limited to PvP encounters. So, no the clear difference you mention is not so clear.
Edit: I guess we didn't even need to scoop the gold in the old gold traps, just had to approach it:
First time I experienced one of those was even higher rank Vultures while I was in D rated Viper III and I barely escaped. Plenty of other CMDRs weren't so lucky.
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Well I'm probably still in Morbads forum block list, but upvoted for that same old gold trap thing. Got wreckt once for it 
If you don't go either armed to the teeth or in something very fast you deserve to get wasted, it doesn't take a genius to realise its a trap
O7
if you want to play in private group or solo only that's fine but you shouldn't get any influence in shaping the world other people who interact with each other play in otherwise it's not fair
so bgs and powerplay should completely ignore actions done in private
for the case of powerplay make it so they get the merits to progress on the loyalty rewards track but those merits don't contribute to leaderboard nor to the undermining / reinforcement of systems . same thing goes for community goals : you get your rewards but you don't influence the results of the COMMUNITY goal
this should be a fair enough compromise
so bgs and powerplay should completely ignore actions done in private
for the case of powerplay make it so they get the merits to progress on the loyalty rewards track but those merits don't contribute to leaderboard nor to the undermining / reinforcement of systems . same thing goes for community goals : you get your rewards but you don't influence the results of the COMMUNITY goal
this should be a fair enough compromise
you're doing everything you want unhindered , i can't stop you from hauling merits , i can't stop you from undermining me , i can't stop you from doing missions against my faction , i can't stop you from attacking the work i'm doing ...
Is G5 murderboat exactly fair?
I'm surprised you haven't included folk who use block, surely they shouldn't be allowed to influence your game either...
yes ! cause you can do the exact same actions the owner did to get one for yourself ! that's the reward of your efforts
oh that system needs to go , block should only be a mute button not a delete from the face of galaxy button