The Planetary landing and planetside missions discussion Thread

[Vaelin]

You're not wrong, but the major issue is actually that most PCG terrain is based on a height map(s).
In it's simplest form the terrain can be thought of as a 2D image, where the height of each pixel is represented by a colour
(say black is lowest point and white is highest point). Or for example you give the PCG algorithm a location and it returns a height.

This works fine and can produce very detailed/interesting terrains but it has a major limitation: You cannot represent overhangs or caves. As a single
location is limited to a single height.

 

[Tinman]

You're not wrong, but the major issue is actually that most PCG terrain is based on a height map(s).
In it's simplest form the terrain can be thought of as a 2D image, where the height of each pixel is represented by a colour
(say black is lowest point and white is highest point). Or for example you give the PCG algorithm a location and it returns a height.

This works fine and can produce very detailed/interesting terrains but it has a major limitation: You cannot represent overhangs or caves. As a single
location is limited to a single height.

Which is why games like Skyrim/Fallout for example use prefab rocks or other formations that are placed accordingly on top of the terrain to simulate these effects. This could also be a possible way of getting around this limitation in ED btw, as long as the placing algorithms are good enough that is. (Can really compare to the other games since they are hand placed in those.) Not saying that is the case, but I do expect to see plenty of rock prefabs littered around the landscapes.

 

[pocketmoon]

my brief history of planetary landing from 2001 ish

http://web.archive.org/web/20070202163232/http://baddoggames.com/planet/history.htm

I remember seeing Rescue on Fractalus on the BBC kids show "Think of a Number"!

The now defunct MojoWorld was a cool procedural world tool from the early 2000's;

http://www.bluebox.com.au/mojoworld/

 

[NeilF]

You're not wrong, but the major issue is actually that most PCG terrain is based on a height map(s).
In it's simplest form the terrain can be thought of as a 2D image, where the height of each pixel is represented by a colour
(say black is lowest point and white is highest point). Or for example you give the PCG algorithm a location and it returns a height.

This works fine and can produce very detailed/interesting terrains but it has a major limitation: You cannot represent overhangs or caves. As a single
location is limited to a single height.

Understood, but you'd think such "exceptions" (overhangs and caves/tunnels) would simply be localised procedural variations to the norm. ie: Condition A, B and C are met, so a procedural overhang is rendered. Or condition X, Y and Z are met, so a precedural cave/tunnel is rendered.

All sounds mighty simple

 

[CmdrJacks]

The problem as I see it is that PG complex terrain, like caves (multiple heights), is really unsuited for on-the-fly rendering at this time. This can be overcome by use of lookup tables (precomputed), couple that with the 400 billion or so star systems, a large number of which have multiple planets, and it isn't hard to see why this approach is infeasible with today's technology.

 

[Cmdr Cheese Wedge]

Outerra has PG overhangs albeit quite subtle but effective minus a few bugs all rendered in realtime.

http://imgur.com/a/kbVlO

 

[Tinman]

Outerra has PG overhangs albeit quite subtle but effective minus a few bugs all rendered in realtime.
http://i.imgur.com/JV1w0Qz.jpg
http://imgur.com/a/kbVlO

Yes, doing horizontal displacement as a second pass is certainly a possibility. That will never create caves though.

 

[Vaelin]

Understood, but you'd think such "exceptions" (overhangs and caves/tunnels) would simply be localised procedural variations to the norm. ie: Condition A, B and C are met, so a procedural overhang is rendered. Or condition X, Y and Z are met, so a precedural cave/tunnel is rendered.

Yeah, it's actually not that simple at all it's all about trade-offs and little tricks to get the result that you want and still be able to store/generate the data and render it all in real-time. If you don't require real-time rendering then there aren't really many/any limitations to what can be done (Remember the entire universe was and still is procedurally generated since the big bang!)

But if you are really interested, I would suggest a few hours internet research as there is plenty of info out there, and can probably do a better job of explaining things then me!!

Outerra is very impressive, and the overhangs you are talking about are generated using horizontal fractal displacement I think (unless it's some new trick they have developed!) it's a clever effect! Here is a post from cameni regarding that technique if you are interested:

http://outerra.blogspot.com.es/2009/05/horizontal-displacement.html

http://outerra.blogspot.com.es/2009/11/horizontal-displacement-2.html

 

[NeilF]

Yes, doing horizontal displacement as a second pass is certainly a possibility. That will never create caves though.

A third pass then?

 

[Cmdr Cheese Wedge]

The only technology that I can think of off the top of my head that could render caves would be "ancient" voxel technology, but I'm sure that's already been discussed, and while it was unique at the time all I can remember were giant pixels and a feeling of nausea moving through a voxel generated world.

 

[NeilF]

Outerra is very impressive, and the overhangs you are talking about are generated using horizontal fractal displacement I think (unless it's some new trick they have developed!) it's a clever effect! Here is a post from cameni regarding that technique if you are interested:

http://outerra.blogspot.com.es/2009/05/horizontal-displacement.html

http://outerra.blogspot.com.es/2009/11/horizontal-displacement-2.html

That's beautiful!

 

[Vaelin]

The only technology that I can think of off the top of my head that could render caves would be "ancient" voxel technology, but I'm sure that's already been discussed, and while it was unique at the time all I can remember were giant pixels and a feeling of nausea moving through a voxel generated world.

The Procworld (voxel farm) dev seems to be doing interesting things with voxels these days and converting polygons to voxels and vice versa. Well worth checking his blog if you're interested in that sort of thing!

Coincidentally heres a post from him regarding caves in his voxel engine from a few years ago.

http://procworld.blogspot.com/2012/11/a-system-of-caves.html

 

[Cmdr Cheese Wedge]

The Procworld (voxel farm) dev seems to be doing interesting things with voxels these days and converting polygons to voxels and vice versa. Well worth checking his blog if you're interested in that sort of thing!

Coincidentally heres a post from him regarding caves in his voxel engine from a few years ago.

http://procworld.blogspot.com/2012/11/a-system-of-caves.html

Never knew about this, amazing dynamic water as well! ,so this is still currently in development? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fRIQLlJEJ0

 

[Tinman]

The Procworld (voxel farm) dev seems to be doing interesting things with voxels these days and converting polygons to voxels and vice versa. Well worth checking his blog if you're interested in that sort of thing!

Coincidentally heres a post from him regarding caves in his voxel engine from a few years ago.

http://procworld.blogspot.com/2012/11/a-system-of-caves.html

Yes, Voxelfarm is probably one of the better examples of how this can be achieved. This is the engine Everquest Next is using BTW.

The general terrain isn't as nice as other examples though IMO.

 

[dannysquid]

Never knew about this, amazing dynamic water as well! ,so this is still currently in development? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fRIQLlJEJ0

I'm not sure I'd call the dynamic water amazing. It's nice that it's realtime physics, but it doesn't look very real.

 

[Andovar]

I'm wondering if all the planets will be 100% procedurally generated? Any chance of a few hand-crafted environments in some key lore-heavy areas?

 

[Tinman]

I'm wondering if all the planets will be 100% procedurally generated? Any chance of a few hand-crafted environments in some key lore-heavy areas?

Depends on what you mean. There will be assets like bases and outposts that are handmade and the placed procedurally. I also suspect known bodies (Sol system) will to some degree at least use height map data when possible and it is available. I also suspect a certain landing zone on the moon might be possible to visit.

But, pretty much everything will be generated procedurally.

 

[Andovar]

Depends on what you mean. There will be assets like bases and outposts that are handmade and the placed procedurally. I also suspect known bodies (Sol system) will to some degree at least use height map data when possible and it is available. I also suspect a certain landing zone on the moon might be possible to visit.

But, pretty much everything will be generated procedurally.

I was thinking more of terrain, not the assets.
With all this talk of caves and overhangs, I'm wondering if it's possible to make some special hand-crafted environments in a few select locations (like in/around Sol, or Lave).
I don't know a lot about PG (other than what it does), so not sure if it would even be possible.
...just curious.

 

[Tinman]

I was thinking more of terrain, not the assets.
With all this talk of caves and overhangs, I'm wondering if it's possible to make some special hand-crafted environments in a few select locations (like in/around Sol, or Lave).
I don't know a lot about PG (other than what it does), so not sure if it would even be possible.
...just curious.

Nothing is "impossible", but in cases like this I personally think it would be easier to just find a nice looking spot among the terrain and hand place certain content there instead. The risk is of course that if they need to change the algorithms later at some point while tweaking/improving things that environment could potentially been replaced by something completely different. The same issue would of course even appear if they tried to override terrain with hand made areas...the edges of these would no longer match then. So no, I don't think the terrain will ever be changed that way.

 

[Kneejo]

Taken from here:


Really seamless would be something like how Space Engine / Outerra / I-Novae Studios does it (just youtube/google it if you haven't seen).

Do we know the definitive answer?

Or Orbiter Space Simulator! With true orbiting, and atmospheric drag, and gravitational drag.. I love drag! And more computers to control orbit and decent!

Then I'll pay! Lol, no kidding.. I'm on my knees already