The Powerplay discussion thread.

[Araviel]

It's as simple as this: FD need to create highly desirable/rewarding activities that cannot be completed in solo/private group mode.

This is how every other MMO designs their games to encourage group play.

aye thats probably how i would go about it if i was the designer, but apparently we got problems whit this here and its not so simple as its considered to be "unfair" for the ones who plays solo.

but yea, i would probably create a event at the end of the power cycle, spawning in a cap ship or something that players would have to group up to defeat or defend in order to take control of a system.
or something like that.

I believe the system, as it stands, is the fairest over all. I can see no reason to encourage PvP at all. PvP is available to any and all who seek it.
It's hard not to be convinced that all of this is just to get more victims in open. The bottom line is, no one wants to be a victim. Unless the bribe exceeds the potential loss, it would all be for nothing. If it did become financially beneficial players would just hide in the shadows, bringing no more game play in the end.

see morghan this is the mind set of pvp players like me, we don't mind being the victim if we also got a chance to gain something from a confrontation.
we are essentially "Gamblers", but currently there is very little to bet on, and we are not gambling for nothing.

 

[SteveLaw]

We know from the thread-which-shall-not-be-named, that there are many reasons that players choose Solo. Each of those will have different "solutions" for moving to Open (I, for one, would not be tempted by higher rewards because that bears no connection to why I play Solo - extra rewards seem to be almost exclusively suggested by players who already play Open, that's missing your target) some will have to be quite fundamental changes to the game. E.g. more traditional PvP "flags" where you can see but not shoot, or even hiding the visible difference between PC and NPC.

Can I turn this around slightly? Why do you want more players in Open for Power Play? Is that a better starting point?

 

[Roybe]

Yeah, this is really the crux of the issue right here.

There are no tools in the game right now that will allow most people to interact with other players in a fun and meaningful way (other than blowing eachother up).

If you want to draw these people in, then FD need to put their thinking caps on and start creating tools that allow the players to interact with each other in ways that make playing open WAY more fun that in solo or private group.

That's the bottom line. And that's a huge bottom line because the closest they've come to that is "wings" (which I love) but you can play wings in private group mode and I still can't do something as simple as pass some money to my friend who needs a little help getting into that new shiny Vulture.

Given all that, I don't hold out much hope for getting people to play in open who aren't already there, well maybe in a couple of years, once FD have figured out how to transfer credits between friends and have more than a few people in an instance..."open" should really mean "everyone" or what's the point?

We took a 9, a Python, a Clipper, and a Cobra into a high intensity pristine RES for some mining and pew pew....try it some time....see how you feel at the end of the mission with full cargo holds and fat bounty wallets! It's not that the content isn't there...people need to find ways to work together to make the fun times happen!

 

[Witcherman]

We took a 9, a Python, a Clipper, and a Cobra into a high intensity pristine RES for some mining and pew pew....try it some time....see how you feel at the end of the mission with full cargo holds and fat bounty wallets! It's not that the content isn't there...people need to find ways to work together to make the fun times happen!

I completely agree with you! I've done some really fun things with friends in wings, but you can still do all of that in "private group" mode. The point here is how to make "open" more enticing to more players. How would you do that?

 

[Robert Maynard]

The point here is how to make "open" more enticing to more players.

Indeed - and the only bits of Open that need any more "enticement" offered, in my opinion, are those where there are other players - which is really a tiny proportion of the galaxy. To give a blanket bonus to players in Open would be seem to be overdoing it by quite a margin - it's only really needed where there are players in conflict with each other.

 

[Mohrgan]

I completely agree with you! I've done some really fun things with friends in wings, but you can still do all of that in "private group" mode. The point here is how to make "open" more enticing to more players. How would you do that?

The underlying, unanswered question is still why would you do that? Why would FD encourage open, over another mode? The idea that it is universally understood that open is the preferred mode doesn't cut it. Let's spend some time discussing the motivation behind this notion.

 

[Witcherman]

We know from the thread-which-shall-not-be-named, that there are many reasons that players choose Solo. Each of those will have different "solutions" for moving to Open (I, for one, would not be tempted by higher rewards because that bears no connection to why I play Solo - extra rewards seem to be almost exclusively suggested by players who already play Open, that's missing your target) some will have to be quite fundamental changes to the game. E.g. more traditional PvP "flags" where you can see but not shoot, or even hiding the visible difference between PC and NPC.

Can I turn this around slightly? Why do you want more players in Open for Power Play? Is that a better starting point?

I understand that there will always be players who, for their own very good reasons, will always want to play in solo mode. I don't hold that against anyone and that's why I'm against getting rid of solo mode to force people into open. I think if you have to do that, you've failed at designing a good game.

As for why so many people want more players to go into open mode? I can only guess that it may have something to do with trying to make the game feel more "alive" and also to build more of a sense of community within the game.

Personally I play both open and solo, depending on my mood. The one thing that has made the game a lot more fun for me is my participation in the Community Goals and being more active on the forums. It just feels fun to be part of a larger community working together (and sometimes debating amongst each other) about this crazy game. But I understand that this does not suite everyone's way of enjoying the game. That's why I advocate for FD creating gameplay features that will give players a reason to "want" to play in open, vs. trying to force them to do it (never a good option).

Any-who, that's just my two cents.

 

[SteveLaw]

As for why so many people want more players to go into open mode? I can only guess that it may have something to do with trying to make the game feel more "alive" and also to build more of a sense of community within the game.

This is why I think it's important to start with the why. The first suggestion could be achieved by, for example, hiding the different between PCs and NPCs, and also by adding PP specific NPCs, ones that actually participate in all aspects of PP (even if they are not counted). This will give the appearance of more a dynamic galaxy. The second would only need a Power specific chat channel/bulletin board that can be accessed across all modes (but can be turned off please).

 

[Cid]

Indeed - and the only bits of Open that need any more "enticement" offered, in my opinion, are those where there are other players - which is really a tiny proportion of the galaxy. To give a blanket bonus to players in Open would be seem to be overdoing it by quite a margin - it's only really needed where there are players in conflict with each other.

So the question isnt how do we incentivise Open but how do we incentivise PvP?
I think you have this backwards, if you incentivise Open, specifically the Powerplay components in say Control systems, more people will flock to Open and more PvP will happen as a byproduct of this.

 

[Scudmungus]

Makin it easia to meet folks inna Open widout PvP --> Easia to build social groups. More de merrier - numbers makin mons bold.

Group feel reddi? Group get into PvP. Group not/neva reddi? Notin lost - dey nevar gonna PvP anyway.

How wi makin it easier? Tuff one.. Gonna tink bout it an ged back to yuh.

So, afta sleep, I be tinkin. Gat problems but be weh mi head at. De idea bein to get player playin Open so dey can see it be not so bad, so dey can meet mons, makin friends an be bold wid numbers.

Open Mode Option: Pacifist.

Pacifist:


​

​

- Selected before enterin Open.


​

- Clear visual signal dat Pacifist player be Pacifist player. Badge/icon next to ship name on coms in Local.

- Higher matchmaking priority wid oder players wid Pacfist.

- Only direct coms from oder Pacifist. Open coms be normal.

- Cannot be interdicted.

- No damage from player weapons.

- Can be bashed rammed, crash at station, be hit rocks an so on.

- Can be bashed by NPCs.

- Can only Wing wid oder Pacifist.



​

Fah clarity: Idea bein to give mons a trip into Open an see wid own eyes what be happenin. See dat much talk bout open be hype an myth. Get dem meetin new mons, makin friends, getting bold in numbers.

Tink of dem as 'tourists'.

Yuh 'I only pirate an want mons to pirate' pirate? Yuh sad cannot attack Pacifist? Well, dey be here. Not in Solo/Group where you never see em, never show dem yuh not so bad! Here, yuh can be part of de solution. Maybi be nice to dem in Local. Use yuh actions to bring dem in - maybi sign dem up!


Mid-Breakfast Edit: Or, simply 'Spectator Mode'. Where mons can watch what be happenin in Open. Camera, zip aroun galaxy. Graphical represent maybi, drone/camera doh I tink spyin not a problem, not in dis game. Again, idea bein to get mons into Open to see Open for demself, meet mons and make friends. Den be bold - fight!

 

[Araviel]

This is why I think it's important to start with the why. The first suggestion could be achieved by, for example, hiding the different between PCs and NPCs, and also by adding PP specific NPCs, ones that actually participate in all aspects of PP (even if they are not counted). This will give the appearance of more a dynamic galaxy. The second would only need a Power specific chat channel/bulletin board that can be accessed across all modes (but can be turned off please).

i completely agree that we need to break this down to the fundamentals and work our way up,
not sure if im a huge follower of your ideas though

there has been game design studies about what you suggested whit masking npc's as players, and the conclusion has always been that it does not work well.
it tends to give players the feeling of a false world, of being in the "matrix" if you like, and the result is that they stop trusting the world, immersion gets broken and they stop feeling engaged in it.
i understand where you are getting from as the idea looks good on paper, but the psychological effect you get is kind of the same as the one you get when you make a robot "too human"
thats why - even though we have some awesome A.I tech today its not being used in multiplayer games as its better to draw a distinct line between A.I and player.

your second idea about a power player chat is great, we need that imho.
but is that idea relevant here since we are only talking about open?

 

[JeffRyan]

The glaring obvious missing Open=Other Players. There is absolutely zero reward in power play for engaging other players of other factions. Nothing direct anyway, at most I'm stopping them from doing their thing, if their thing is even PP related anyway. Which was my main point in my own thread that got merged into the uber thread.

 

[Janichsan]

The two types of players that need to be encouraged to join open are traders and explorers.
*snip*

I like these ideas (with some exceptions) much better than atak2's, since they do offer actual solutions to the problematic aspects that deter some people from playing in open, instead of basically just buffing open by handing out bonuses.

 

[SteveLaw]

there has been game design studies about what you suggested whit masking npc's as players, and the conclusion has always been that it does not work well.

Again, it depends what you are trying to achieve. I suspect that Open feels so "lacking" for many players is that they only see the PCs. They will turn a blind eye to all of the actual dynamic content because it's "only" NPCs. If the difference was removed/hidden I have a feeling that they would suddenly see a much more dynamic galaxy. And if not, then do we only need more NPCs?

But do we? It's a big old universe after all, how busy should systems be to balance a "realistic" and a "fun" experience?

 

[jgm]

Powerplay is broken in that there is no way to stop players in solo or group undermining a fortified control system. FD either need to only allow undermining to take place in open or change the goal so that it is possible for players in all modes to be able to stop a fortified control system from being undermined.

Edit: undermining a fortified system brings the overall result back to neutral however the action is still undermining.

 

[SteveLaw]

Powerplay is broken in that there is no way to stop players in solo or group undermining a fortified control system. FD either need to only allow undermining to take place in open or change the goal so that it is possible for players in all modes to be able to stop a fortified control system from being undermined.

You can't Undermine a Fortified system they cancel each other out.

Edit: undermining a fortified system brings the overall result back to neutral however the action is still undermining.

Edit: Yes it does. But without the Fortify it would cost twice as much upkeep. That's how the strategy in Power Play works. The game was designed with moves and counter moves. You don't get a free pass to do what you want.

 

[Mohrgan]

Undermining and Fortifying directly balance each other out. To stop an undermining effort, fortify. It couldn't be any plainer.

 

[Janichsan]

The glaring obvious missing Open=Other Players. There is absolutely zero reward in power play for engaging other players of other factions. Nothing direct anyway, at most I'm stopping them from doing their thing, if their thing is even PP related anyway. Which was my main point in my own thread that got merged into the uber thread.

Powerplay is broken in that there is no way to stop players in solo or group undermining a fortified control system. FD either need to only allow undermining to take place in open or change the goal so that it is possible for players in all modes to be able to stop a fortified control system from being undermined.

These are both typical example of how some people misunderstand how Powerplay is supposed to work: you don't oppose players supporting other powers by shooting them, you do that by fulfilling the opposing missions for your power. Players are undermining a control system? Do the corresponding fortifying missions! That's what they are for!!

 

[Robert Maynard]

So the question isnt how do we incentivise Open but how do we incentivise PvP?
I think you have this backwards, if you incentivise Open, specifically the Powerplay components in say Control systems, more people will flock to Open and more PvP will happen as a byproduct of this.

Any incentive to play in Open would seem to be wasted on those who already play there - they are there already, after all. If, as suggested, Open lacks traders and explorers, presumably any incentive needs to be aimed at those roles / play-styles. An incentive does not need to take the form of a bonus, it could be as simple as reducing losses if attacked / destroyed by another player (reduced insurance excess or possibly cargo insurance, etc.) - for the roles that are felt to be lacking. This type of targeted reduced cost incentive would not incentivise PvP in and of itself but it would probably make some players less averse to being on the receiving end of it.

 

[jgm]

Undermining and Fortifying directly balance each other out. To stop an undermining effort, fortify. It couldn't be any plainer.

We've done this before, and again very clearly my text says "undermining a fortified control system". But to go through it step by step:

• I have a fortified control system. I have put time and effort in to fortifying said system. My upkeep for this system in the next cycle will be 0
• Another power wants to undermine said system. If they manage this then the end state for the system will be neutral and my upkeep for the next cycle will be 25CC (or whatever)
• There is no way to attempt to stop the other power for taking away the CC I have put time and effort in to obtaining for my power

And please don't bring out the netcode argument. The fact that the netcode could mean that some players do not see other players is irrelevant next to the fact that some players will be able to see other players, and so have an impact on their activities. It moves undermining from being a way to hurt an opponent with zero risk to one that players will have to consider.

And to be entirely clear this is not a bash of any sort against solo Vs open. You might note that I haven't talked about expansion here: even though it can and does take place outside of open there is a way for other players to oppose it by increasing their expansion metric. I don't have a problem with this because there is an active counter regardless of the mode in which each set of players want to play. The issue is specifically around control where there is no counter available.

- - - Updated - - -

These are both typical example of how some people misunderstand how Powerplay is supposed to work: you don't oppose players supporting other powers by shooting them, you do that by fulfilling the opposing missions for your power. Players are undermining a control system? Do the corresponding fortifying missions! That's what they are for!!

"fortified control system". Read the text you quote before commenting on misunderstanding powerplay.