IMHO “Astrophil and Stella”, and anything else written by or relating to Philip Sydney (or his paramour) is in no way relevant to “Princess Astrophel and the Spiralling Stars” 😁

I think it was always a bit of a leap of faith relating the two, but if you want to run with that hypothesis enjoy your quest, it’s a personal journey! 😉
 
@JT442 I am pleading with you and the entirety of the Elite Dangerous community to let the old myths of separation die. Let them be mourned and let them go quietly. It is time to finally move forward as one singular community united in cause - to serve and protect humanity (in whatever form the story development allows). The old myths have served their purpose, as they were the lesson we needed to learn (that everything is ultimately united). If Lavian Brandy has always been stored in oak barrels from Earth, then what Walden said was some form of misdirection. But, it isn't even just that - the Lakon Spaceways codex states plainly they are older in pedigree than most ship manufacturers having originated at Earth (the Type-6 Transporter is the proof of that). This is all purely in Elite Dangerous itself without any external sources (though those also back up the claims in Elite Dangerous). Please, let the idea of separation die. It was to teach us a lesson that not all is as it seems. Elite Dangerous is a true sequel to all the games. I should know better than most as Gateway is proof of that (since it has been known by Oltiqu and Hope alternately based on the planet there). I never wanted to hurt CoR or the player-base but we have to face facts and move onwards. We have an existential threat coming (Stargoids), perhaps it is time we treat the totality of the past as a lesson and move onwards.
What ARE you banging on about? Someone raised a query about collecting certain things, so I answered with a list of collected things..... You are quite mad.
 
What ARE you banging on about? Someone raised a query about collecting certain things, so I answered with a list of collected things..... You are quite mad.
I am being quite rational. Everything has a beginning and an end with cause/effect. How should anyone expect to get anywhere with this if they haven't actually understood approximately what date it was when Jason Ryder's Avalonia was destroyed and he said this to his son? You cannot just pretend the past or rumors of the past didn't happen.

Screenshot_20221109-141039~2.png
 
Holdstock's original novella which came with the original game in the UK was written as a bit of flavour for an otherwise quite dull (visually) space trading and combat game. It had no direct link to the game itself. The whole premise of it was to allow the player to imagine being part of an amazing narrative which could be taking part around them. I and many others didn't realise this at the time and spent years searching for Raxxla in the original. Raxxla was not in the original game at all, and was derived from Holdstock's earlier works - a literary easter egg, or simply recycling of ideas from other literary works.
Raxxla remained out of the sequels, and existed only in the minds of the players. The ONLY time Raxxla has been mentioned at all is in the Codex, and a fleeting, possible side reference in TDW missions.
You should not use Holdstocks novel as a quote machine to find Raxxla in this game. If you must use it, think how another author, say Allan Stroud, would incorporate Holdstock's Raxxla vision into Elite IV.
 
Holdstock's original novella which came with the original game in the UK was written as a bit of flavour for an otherwise quite dull (visually) space trading and combat game. It had no direct link to the game itself. The whole premise of it was to allow the player to imagine being part of an amazing narrative which could be taking part around them. I and many others didn't realise this at the time and spent years searching for Raxxla in the original. Raxxla was not in the original game at all, and was derived from Holdstock's earlier works - a literary easter egg, or simply recycling of ideas from other literary works.
Raxxla remained out of the sequels, and existed only in the minds of the players. The ONLY time Raxxla has been mentioned at all is in the Codex, and a fleeting, possible side reference in TDW missions.
You should not use Holdstocks novel as a quote machine to find Raxxla in this game. If you must use it, think how another author, say Allan Stroud, would incorporate Holdstock's Raxxla vision into Elite IV.
You can date it with the ships that they mentioned plus all the varying beacons and related GalNets for GalCop/Old Worlds region. Dates are associated with pretty much every ship on the ship management screens. It may be advisable to look into how Lavian Brandy is made as that is a slightly important detail (INARA matches in-game description exactly). One other thing, Lave was settled in 2412 per "History of Lave" but Faraway and thus Quirium didn't exist until the 2800s (from "Galactic News: Hyperspace". It would be hard to colonize another star system (much less multiple) if one doesn't have fuel.

We had fuel scoops in The Dark Wheel novella and apparently all the way back to 2323 or earlier. Well, that at least solved the fuel conundrum.

For the record, I was never the problem and I am certainly not mad. I want to see the community find this at some point. But for that to happen, we have to be honest in that perhaps the approach at times was overlooking key details. Lakon Spaceways Codex entry even states the company was from Sol originally. I merely was trying to help get people back on the path. It does no one any good to blindly search.

Anyway, best of luck on your search as I am pretty sure the "Early Colonies" beacon in Delta Pavonis means it could be anywhere in the galaxy with rapid expansion starting in earnest by 2230. Remember, we're all in this together.

Screenshot_20221109-161233~2.png
 
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IMHO “Astrophil and Stella”, and anything else written by or relating to Philip Sydney (or his paramour) is in no way relevant to “Princess Astrophel and the Spiralling Stars” 😁

I think it was always a bit of a leap of faith relating the two, but if you want to run with that hypothesis enjoy your quest, it’s a personal journey! 😉
What's weird, I think, is the spelling. From my googling (which I'm sure everyone did):

"There is no evidence that the title is authorial. It derives from the first printed text, the unauthorized quarto edition published by Thomas Newman (1591). Newman may also have been responsible for the consistent practice in early printings of calling the lover persona 'Astrophel'. Ringler emended to 'Astrophil' on the grounds of etymological correctness, since the name is presumably based on Greek aster philein, and means 'lover of a star' (with stella meaning 'star'); the 'phil' element alluding also, no doubt, to Sidney's Christian name."

Since it's spelled "Astrophel" in the Codex, that maybe does actually suggest a link to Sydney's work?!
 
What's weird, I think, is the spelling. From my googling (which I'm sure everyone did):



Since it's spelled "Astrophel" in the Codex, that maybe does actually suggest a link to Sydney's work?!
You can generate PDFs from Wikisource. The earlier one is by Sydney but was published in error with all manner of spelling problems and such. I suspect those may be important to the hints we are supposed to see regarding Raxxla.

 
You can generate PDFs from Wikisource. The earlier one is by Sydney but was published in error with all manner of spelling problems and such. I suspect those may be important to the hints we are supposed to see regarding Raxxla.

TBh I personally think it may basically mean that we shouldn't trust old stuff cos it's not always correct - or something like that.

CODEX: "These details however, were later shown to bear a striking resemblance to children's story Princess Astrophel and Spiralling Stars, and soon lost credibility. Undaunted, some Raxxla seekers insisted that the story's author had cunningly concealed facts about the mysterious locale in his book as hints for those with eyes to see."

I mean... that feels pretty familiar (affectionate, nudging wink)... cough-cough-holdstock-cough-cough...:censored:
 
TBh I personally think it may basically mean that we shouldn't trust old stuff cos it's not always correct - or something like that.



I mean... that feels pretty familiar (affectionate, nudging wink)... cough-cough-holdstock-cough-cough...:censored:
Possible that

From Astrophil and Stella:
I said thou wert most fair, and so indeed thou art;
I said thou wert most sweet, sweet poison to my heart;
I said my soul was thine (oh that I then had lied!)
I said thine eyes were stars, thy the milk'n way;
Thy fingers Cupid's shafts, thy voice the angels' lay:
And all I said so well, as no man it denied.

Refers to persephone (Cora milk again, daughter)
then it should be her mother Demeter that is mother of galaxies
 
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Holdstock's original novella which came with the original game in the UK was written as a bit of flavour for an otherwise quite dull (visually) space trading and combat game. It had no direct link to the game itself. The whole premise of it was to allow the player to imagine being part of an amazing narrative which could be taking part around them. I and many others didn't realise this at the time and spent years searching for Raxxla in the original. Raxxla was not in the original game at all, and was derived from Holdstock's earlier works - a literary easter egg, or simply recycling of ideas from other literary works.
Raxxla remained out of the sequels, and existed only in the minds of the players. The ONLY time Raxxla has been mentioned at all is in the Codex, and a fleeting, possible side reference in TDW missions.
You should not use Holdstocks novel as a quote machine to find Raxxla in this game. If you must use it, think how another author, say Allan Stroud, would incorporate Holdstock's Raxxla vision into Elite IV.
I have. There are no direct conflicts even with looking purely at Elite Dangerous for the earliest timelines. This is precisely why I feel comfortable citing it being mentioned by Jason Ryder. It is important that Lavian Brandy requires barrels made from oak trees from Earth. Details even seemingly innocuous ones matter.
 
Just my two cents (and yes I get I have "exotic" ideas on the lore front) for maximally effective and fun theorycrafting:

-Any ideas need to have all necessary claims be able to survive investigation.
-Understand the era ideas apply.
-If possible, see if the idea can be used to predict where or how it is found.
-Does anything else explicitly contradict the idea?
-Does the concept self-limit possible locations in some fashion.

Then use this to go looking. Refine, reiterate, and revise. Yes, rumors happen very early but we also have few good limits on human expansion.
 
What's weird, I think, is the spelling. From my googling (which I'm sure everyone did):



Since it's spelled "Astrophel" in the Codex, that maybe does actually suggest a link to Sydney's work?!
The word is both Astrophil and Astrophel, they are one and the same, the difference is due to an historical mistyping of earlier printing processes when the sonnets were first published.

Technically there is no difference they are one and the same. Early printing processes did not utilise the same standards of modern publication, printers were usually singular persons, hand arranging letters, in some instances utilising illiterate staff, I believe this misspelling is commonly understood to be attributed to one particular edition, if memory serves.

Personally I believe our extrapolation of its meaning is generally fruitless unless it can be correlated with a secondary clue.

It is either just poetic license, a little flourish, or a literary reference which somehow marries with all the other text.

My recollections of the sonnets is they were more generally associated with ‘slap n tickle’ rather than astrology, what was were generally attributed to local occurrences eg the transition of Mercury, or it can be attributed to references to heraldry another common reference Sidney utilised as a form of abstraction/expression, although Philip was into astronomy, he didn’t utilise it literally in his text, when he did it was in reference to the Greek mythology, his knowledge of science was little than basic Astrology and more linked to alchemy.

Much of the references to black eyes etc have nought to do with actual stars or black holes but a common parlance of the time, affectionately penned to get a knee trembled; we best not look too deeply into the text with our modern eyes, for fear of embellishments.

Source: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3e0afj

For that alone I feel the term is a poetic flourish. If it’s literal then the correlation ought to be very simple, otherwise the author does not know their source material!

Alternatively, I attributed it to be a play on words, and given as I am to attribute abstraction into order, the various terms used ‘children’s story’; ‘pirates’ etc all could (probably don’t as it’s outlandish and far too convoluted, relate to Mary Sidney and the Arcadia.

I do suspect the Codexes for Raxxla and the Dark Wheel are exercises in convoluted red herrings, to explain away a now redundant narrative, whilst not debunking them entirely, weaving those dead ends into the lore.

I suspect they only contain 2 shreds of evidence, that either the Dark Wheel station (not faction) exists alone, but likely it’s a dead hulk with audio logs on its exterior; it’s is just out there, but doesn’t lead anywhere.

FD stated indirectly in regards the DW missions and Trinkets that story is archived, they may turn it back on in the future, I suspect the station exists, but just leads us to a narrative wall, where maybe FD will flip a switch and insert something else.

As for Raxxla Codex I presume it’s only link is to the Tau Ceti 2296 reference, is this taking us to Delphi, or the bubble? have we already uncovered what they wanted us to find? is there another narrative lock waiting to drop with the Stargoids? I sometimes feel we give FD too much credit and are reading too much into it all, maybe it’s already been solved!

Time will tell. I hope to be wrong. The DW station I hope is in game, I would like it to correlate to M Brookes original works… time will tell.

Source: https://youtu.be/YWyCCJ6B2WE
 
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the quest takes place entirely within elite, this is a 4th wall break to dive into astrophel and stella, and i think that is the point of that piece of flavour text, a message not to go diving into wikipedia and books to find something hidden in the milky way
I have one major challenge to this only because I believe your interpretation is perhaps an oversimplification of the matter. My assertion would be if it is in the game first and references an outside source that is perhaps fair game (up to and including recurring themes). On the flip side, any ideas gleaned from this must link to Elite Dangerous.

That counterpoint is the "First Thargoid Contact" beacon in Lave which states the following:

The first recorded contact between humanity and the Thargoids took place in 3125, although it has been speculated that there were encounters, albeit ones with no human survivors or witnesses.

A holo clip of the encounter showed showing a brief glimpse of the alien ship, and analysis of the footage revealed characters on the hull reminiscent of the letters 'THARG'. Some argued the characters might in fact be some kind of symbol, but the word nevertheless fell into popular use, giving rise to the name 'Thargoid'.

In the years that followed, scores of encounters with Thargoid vessels were reported, but little concrete evidence emerged, and for a long time nothing more was learned about these mysterious aliens.

----
Which references the below symbols from Allen Stroud's Lave Revolution. The catch is this is very likely written by humans and is but a simple substitution cipher which was decoded with the key THARG:
Lave Revolution SECRET MESSAGE.png


The deciphered text:

Lavian Phoenix Greeting Protocol

The old mercenaries preferred a silent hail when meeting in deep space . Approach dead ahead with gun ports open at ninety degrees to target. Stop at five hundred metres , rotate ninety to the left and wait for same response.

Once established, custom is Phoenix members help each other. Your new friend might fly your wing for a while, but they’ll be gone if something comes up.

No pilot violates the greeting. If they does, let it be know. The Lady of Fate don’t smile on traitors.
 
I have one major challenge to this only because I believe your interpretation is perhaps an oversimplification of the matter. My assertion would be if it is in the game first and references an outside source that is perhaps fair game (up to and including recurring themes). On the flip side, any ideas gleaned from this must link to Elite Dangerous.

That counterpoint is the "First Thargoid Contact" beacon in Lave which states the following:

The first recorded contact between humanity and the Thargoids took place in 3125, although it has been speculated that there were encounters, albeit ones with no human survivors or witnesses.

A holo clip of the encounter showed showing a brief glimpse of the alien ship, and analysis of the footage revealed characters on the hull reminiscent of the letters 'THARG'. Some argued the characters might in fact be some kind of symbol, but the word nevertheless fell into popular use, giving rise to the name 'Thargoid'.

In the years that followed, scores of encounters with Thargoid vessels were reported, but little concrete evidence emerged, and for a long time nothing more was learned about these mysterious aliens.

----
Which references the below symbols from Allen Stroud's Lave Revolution. The catch is this is very likely written by humans and is but a simple substitution cipher which was decoded with the key THARG:
View attachment 331659

The deciphered text:

Lavian Phoenix Greeting Protocol

The old mercenaries preferred a silent hail when meeting in deep space . Approach dead ahead with gun ports open at ninety degrees to target. Stop at five hundred metres , rotate ninety to the left and wait for same response.

Once established, custom is Phoenix members help each other. Your new friend might fly your wing for a while, but they’ll be gone if something comes up.

No pilot violates the greeting. If they does, let it be know. The Lady of Fate don’t smile on traitors.
20221110_032132.jpg
 
The word is both Astrophil and Astrophel, they are one and the same, the difference is due to an historical mistyping of earlier printing processes when the sonnets were first published.

Technically there is no difference they are one and the same. Early printing processes did not utilise the same standards of modern publication, printers were usually singular persons, hand arranging letters, in some instances utilising illiterate staff, I believe this misspelling is commonly understood to be attributed to one particular edition, if memory serves.

Personally I believe our extrapolation of its meaning is generally fruitless unless it can be correlated with a secondary clue.

It is either just poetic license, a little flourish, or a literary reference which somehow marries with all the other text.

My recollections of the sonnets is they were more generally associated with ‘slap n tickle’ rather than astrology, what was were generally local, eg Mercury, or heraldry, not astronomy, much of the references to black eyes etc have nought to do with actual stars or black holes but a common parlance of the time, affectionately penned to get a knee trembled; we best not look too deeply into the text with our modern eyes, for fear of embellishments.

Source: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3e0afj

For that alone I feel the term is a poetic flourish. If it’s literal then the correlation ought to be very simple, otherwise the author does not know their source material!

Alternatively, I attributed it to be a play on words, and given as I am to attribute abstraction into order, the various terms used ‘children’s story’; ‘pirates’ etc all could (probably don’t as it’s outlandish and far too convoluted, relate to Mary Sidney and the Arcadia.

I do suspect the Codexes for Raxxla and the Dark Wheel are exercises in convoluted red herrings, to explain away a now redundant narrative, whilst not debunking them entirely, weaving those dead ends into the lore.

I suspect they only contain 2 shreds of evidence, that either the Dark Wheel station (not faction) exists alone, but likely it’s a dead hulk with audio logs on its exterior; it’s is just out there, but doesn’t lead anywhere.

FD stated indirectly in regards the DW missions and Trinkets that story is archived, they may turn it back on in the future, I suspect the station exists, but just leads us to a narrative wall, where maybe FD will flip a switch and insert something else.

As for Raxxla Codex I presume it’s only link is to the Tau Ceti 2296 reference, is this taking us to Delphi, or the bubble? have we already uncovered what they wanted us to find? is there another narrative lock waiting to drop with the Stargoids? I sometimes feel we give FD too much credit and are reading too much into it all, maybe it’s already been solved!

Time will tell. I hope to be wrong. The DW station I hope is in game, I would like it to correlate to M Brookes original works… time will tell.

Source: https://youtu.be/YWyCCJ6B2WE
That's interesting stuff. I do agree that at least some of both Codex entries are more of a meta commentary on the search than they are outright clues.
 
I have one major challenge to this only because I believe your interpretation is perhaps an oversimplification of the matter. My assertion would be if it is in the game first and references an outside source that is perhaps fair game (up to and including recurring themes). On the flip side, any ideas gleaned from this must link to Elite Dangerous.

That counterpoint is the "First Thargoid Contact" beacon in Lave which states the following:

The first recorded contact between humanity and the Thargoids took place in 3125, although it has been speculated that there were encounters, albeit ones with no human survivors or witnesses.

A holo clip of the encounter showed showing a brief glimpse of the alien ship, and analysis of the footage revealed characters on the hull reminiscent of the letters 'THARG'. Some argued the characters might in fact be some kind of symbol, but the word nevertheless fell into popular use, giving rise to the name 'Thargoid'.

In the years that followed, scores of encounters with Thargoid vessels were reported, but little concrete evidence emerged, and for a long time nothing more was learned about these mysterious aliens.

----
Which references the below symbols from Allen Stroud's Lave Revolution. The catch is this is very likely written by humans and is but a simple substitution cipher which was decoded with the key THARG:
View attachment 331659

The deciphered text:

Lavian Phoenix Greeting Protocol

The old mercenaries preferred a silent hail when meeting in deep space . Approach dead ahead with gun ports open at ninety degrees to target. Stop at five hundred metres , rotate ninety to the left and wait for same response.

Once established, custom is Phoenix members help each other. Your new friend might fly your wing for a while, but they’ll be gone if something comes up.

No pilot violates the greeting. If they does, let it be know. The Lady of Fate don’t smile on traitors.
So the Key is Tharg, But that whole message screams The Dark Wheel, especially the very last part where it mentions " The Lady of Fate".
 
Our core problem is the search is full of areas where it isn't always clear where efforts are too much or too little. Moderation in all things may help. The other thing, is there seems to be a fair amount indirect hints where something exists either purely in-game and in the novels where we are told just enough that it could be completely dismissed if one isn't closely paying attention. I wish there was less ambiguity, but that's what happens there are "no hints". Lastly, the "lady of Fate" thing in that message is weird. I think the story involving Thargoids must be much more complex. Maybe it means we aren't staring down extinction.
 
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Possible that

From Astrophil and Stella:
I said thou wert most fair, and so indeed thou art;
I said thou wert most sweet, sweet poison to my heart;
I said my soul was thine (oh that I then had lied!)
I said thine eyes were stars, thy the milk'n way;
Thy fingers Cupid's shafts, thy voice the angels' lay:
And all I said so well, as no man it denied.

Refers to persephone (Cora milk again, daughter)
then it should be her mother Demeter that is mother of galaxies
Sonnet 7:
When Nature made her chief work, Stella’s eyes,
In colour black why wrapp’d she beams so bright?
Would she in beamy black, like painter wise,
Frame daintiest lustre, mix’d of shades and light?
Or did she else that sober hue devise,
In object best to knit and strength our sight,
Lest if no veil those brave gleams did disguise,
They sun-like should more dazzle than delight?
Or would she her miraculous power show,
That whereas black seems Beauty’s contrary,
She even in black doth make all beauties flow?
Both so and thus, she minding Love should be
Placed ever there, gave him this mourning weed,
To honour all their deaths, who for her bleed.
Why did Nature wrap Stella’s eyes, those bright rays
That are Nature’s main work, in black colouring?
Did Nature wish, like a skilled painter using chiarascuro technique,
To create the finest lustre by mixing shadows and light?
Or did Nature create that sombre shade of colour
In order to knit together and strengthen our powers of vision,
In case Stella’s sun-like eyes should dazzle more than they delight
By being free of any protective veil?
Or did Nature wish to show her miraculous powers
By making all beauties appear with a black colouring
Even though black is not regarded as being beautiful?
No, it is as follows: Nature remembering that Love should always be
Placed in Stella’s eyes, gave Love’s clothes this mournful colour,
To honour the deaths of all those who bleed to death for her sake.

IMHO to base hypotheses about Raxxla solely on an apparent resemblance of two words between the titles of two books (one mythical, only existing in-game and all we know of it is the title) “Astrophel and the Spiralling Stars” and “Astrophil and Stella” is another example of space madness/pareidolia. There needs to be something to support such hypotheses...........

Mind, I am also sceptical of the amount of effort that has gone into classical myth- and lore-based hypotheses based on a t-shirt that Michael Brookes chose to wear and his tattoo, and a few in-game place names. And much lore-based hypothesising has been based on out of ED lore which IIRC we were told only a few pages ago, by the guy who should know, should be treated as flavour/fluff.

I base my scepticism on the fact that I too have followed such hypotheses-from the sonnet 7 text above I spent weeks diving all the dual BH I could find, dropping various Guardian artefacts in there and at their barycentres. I’ve also pursued place name-based quests based on the “personal journey” resemblance to “Odyssey”.

Mind, I had a lot of fun gameplay in those quests, but is it surprising that I found nothing? I think not, hand wavium is not a sound basis for sound hypotheses. 😉
 
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