General / Off-Topic The safest place

[WhiteHaulerMan]

No it is not .

And yeah, that is a great worry .

The Pandemic at its worst (which the media seem to have dialled back in recent times) was expected to be a society breaking event with many years of repercussions.

If you don't think that's relatable to my original point, you might need to put your reading specs on. Simply writing "no it isn't" and sticking your head in the sand is a very naive outlook.

 

[Synkreto]

It's not really that surprising, as being obese almost always results in poor lung capacity due to lack of exercise, and also breathing difficulties, especially when sleeping due to the fat weighting on their chest.

My sister is a semi - pro alto singer....doing singing a lot from a very young age . Lung capacity hopefully is ok for her .

 

[Synkreto]

The Pandemic at its worst (which the media seem to have dialled back in recent times) was expected to be a society breaking event with many years of repercussions.

If you don't think that's relatable to my original point, you might need to put your reading specs on. Simply writing "no it isn't" and sticking your head in the sand is a very naive outlook.

What I am saying is : there is no world in which you can directly transfer/compare the governmental response to looting/burglary to a situation where medical professionals have to decide who gets to live, and who gets to die .

The public discussion about whether it is ok to simply let old people die may well turn out to be a society breaking event in itself.

 

[Synkreto]

Germany openly adresses the Problem :

Wer darf überleben und wer muss sterben?

Wenn die Ressourcen wegen der Corona-Krise knapp werden, müssen Ärzte entscheiden, wer behandelt wird. Nun gibt es erste Vorschläge zu einer solchen Triage. Ärzte sprechen von Kriegsmedizin.

www.nordkurier.de

( "Who gets to live, and who has to die" ) .

7 leading medical associations have published a paper suggesting and detailing a process . This is

a) openly accessible to everyone
b) still up for discussion . People can offer opinion, criticism, considerations through a weblink .

This is not governmental, or anyhow legal at this moment afaik .

This is the paper :

Publikationen Intensiv-/Notfallmedizin: SAPS, TISS, SOFA etc.

Empfehlungen, Dokumentationen und Positionspapiere der DIVI finden Sie hier.

www.divi.de

I feel like I need to add : In Germany, by law, the rules need to be equal everywhere in the country . The rules, by law, MUST NOT be based on age, gender, religion or social factors . By the german constitution, human life MUST NOT be weighed against each other .

 

[Morbad]

Never wait for nanny state , take charge of your own life, has always been my motto.

not all is good in China

Can't contain a pandemic on your own, or even accumulate the resources to hide from one, without interacting with society.

Also, I wasn't necessarily referring to states at all. I see the state itself as fundamentally undesirable and probably unnecessary, but if people are going to organize themselves this way, they should at least try to make sure their states do something useful with the authority they surrender to them. Regardless of the structures in place, it's clear human civilization and society in general is frequently unprepared for entirely foreseeable events.

China was no exception.

I wonder if this experience I went through gives me more resistance from the bronchi and lungs against the Covid 19 ?

I wouldn't bet on it.

The public discussion about whether it is ok to simply let old people die may well turn out to be a society breaking event in itself.

I doubt this, simply because this discussion has largely been resolved and reinforced with broadly the same sentiment for centuries, and most major exceptions to the premise of equal treatment have been viewed as serious crimes.

When not everyone can be treated, policy tends to be to treat those who will have the greatest likelihood of responding to treatment. This will often be younger people, but that's hardly the only factor looked at, and most doctors aren't going to look at factors that don't influence patient survival.

Those that want to engage in a bit of hands-on social engineering or dabble in eugenics with their treatment are probably going to end up in prison or swinging from a rope, if discovered.

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

What I am saying is : there is no world in which you can directly transfer/compare the governmental response to looting/burglary to a situation where medical professionals have to decide who gets to live, and who gets to die .

The public discussion about whether it is ok to simply let old people die may well turn out to be a society breaking event in itself.

I'm sorry, but that to me is expressing the viewpoint of someone who's never been in a situation relatable to the one we're potentially facing when it comes to dealing with this crisis.

In my experience as someone who's had to be involved in the decision about who will live and who will die due to resource scarcity/'for the good of the whole'; its not nice, but a practical part of the real world.

 

[Oldviboy]

Upgrade:
Spain dawns again with the highest number of deaths (832) (5700 total) and is just a few from overcoming the deaths from stationary flu of all last year (6,000). Italy a day ago surpassed deaths from the common flu last year (8,000), approaching 10,000 deaths.
My own predictions changed in one day.

Regarding priority, apart from triage, they are being given ,in some cases, to health personnel, there are already more than 10,000 infected and 2 deaths doctors.

 

[Synkreto]

I'm sorry, but that to me is expressing the viewpoint of someone who's never been in a situation relatable to the one we're potentially facing when it comes to dealing with this crisis.

In my experience as someone who's had to be involved in the decision about who will live and who will die due to resource scarcity/'for the good of the whole'; its not nice, but a practical part of the real world.

Have you been bound by this, or something similar :

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will protect the environment which sustains us, in the knowledge that the continuing health of ourselves and our societies is dependent on a healthy planet.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

What I am trying to get at, even when you type "shortness of resources" in your above post, you omit any reference to a situation of medical treatment...which I thought I left no doubt I was referring to .

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

Have you been bound by this, or something similar :



What I am trying to get at, even when you type "shortness of resources" in your above post, you omit any reference to a situation of medical treatment...which I though left no doubt I was referring to .

I myself might not be bound to the Hippocratic oath (why you couldnt have just said that eludes me); but the doctors who I have to deliver stores, shipmates, soldiers, civillians and airmen to in either serious outbreaks (such as Ebola in '14), humanitarian missions (such as caribbean hurricane season) or god forbid, proper military deployments are.

 

[Xenith]

If we're prioritising care, then it's not the elderly who should be 'culled' as one news site put it, but the gangs of feral yobs, who are nothing but a detriment to our society.

It's a slippery slope, but if we're assigning value to people - as some on here seem to advocate - then surely criminals and delinquents should not have any resources wasted on them? What do they have to offer which necessitates their being saved? Just a thought.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Just a reminder that what is being considered (or already taking place) is triage; the assessment and categorization of patients based on both the severity of their condition and the prognosis taking into account all known variables. This is a medical assessment, performed by medical staff. It is not a moral judgement, and I suggest we do not start an elaborate discussion regarding who 'deserves to die' the most.

 

[Han_Zen]

So far in Norway:
Hospitals are managing quite well.
Unemployment office is not managing well.
Regular flu is practically eradicated, due to isolation.
Number of hospitalized Corona patients dropped for the first time today. Numbers on respirator is still rising.
20 dead so far.
About 4000 positive tests. Real number is probably 40000.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

In the UK, hundreds of thousands of people have signed up to join the NHS's volunteer army, smashing the government's recruitment target. Stephen Powis, NHS England medical director, said there had been "outbreaks of altruism" and he was "bowled over" by the response from volunteers

.
- From the BBC.

Kindness goes a much longer way than we might expect, doesn't it? .

In epidemics with exponential growth, locking down at the BEGINNING is the best course to prevent caseload spiking. That means before you have significant numbers.

 

[jasonbarron]

So far in Norway:
Hospitals are managing quite well.
Unemployment office is not managing well.
Regular flu is practically eradicated, due to isolation.
Number of hospitalized Corona patients dropped for the first time today. Numbers on respirator is still rising.
20 dead so far.
About 4000 positive tests. Real number is probably 40000.

I keep coming back in mind to a populations overall health. Per our conversation regarding Iditarod mushers the other day and Norway's "dog culture," my wife is now into canine agility to scratch the canine sport itch. She's constantly watching videos and training seminars from Finland and one thing I've noticed about you Scandinavians is that your people look healthy, fit and athletic to me, especially compared to American's. In America, for instance, we have a obesity rate of nearly 40% with another 39% classified as "overweight." That's not to say there aren't millions of healthy, fit looking people in America, but I'm willing to bet if we randomly selected a million Scandinavians and Americans we'd see a pronounced difference in physical fitness on a population wide level. There's this popular mythology in my country where that is somehow a normal state of being to soothe the politically correct, exhibiting itself in such ways as normalizing being seriously overweight by having posters and mannequins for plus sized women in women's apparel clothing stores, plus sized models in Swimsuit illustrated and assorted beauty aid cosmetics and makeup etc.

Not that the virus isn't killing young healthy (as far as we know) people, but they are in such small numbers as to be an anomaly compared to the rest of the cases. I said this a few weeks ago, that after you filter out for "elderly" overall physical fitness and health regardless of age is going to be the next most vital piece of data that we could have access to. As far as mortality rates over the next few months as we start getting closer and closer to a peak, my money is on the countries with the most healthy populations to see the most positive outcomes. America, using that calculation, is going to see a lot of very negative population wide outcomes, the possible wildcard being our vast industrial complex and wealth ramping up to keep pace with the spread.

 

[Raino]

here is a view on to the hardware front, an interview with the biggest ventilator manufacturer
Absolutely Mission Impossible

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

In somewhat surprising news, Dutch hospitals stated that 80% of people in ICU is obese. I knew it was an at-risk condition, but had no clue it played such a role.

Lombardy in Italy had released similar published reports previously.
This is the worst time in human history to get this virus economically: we have both the biggest obesity crisis and we have invented expensive ICU care.

 

[Synkreto]

here is a view on to the hardware front, an interview with the biggest ventilator manufacturer
Absolutely Mission Impossible

Interesting points :

Dräger: The contract has a detailed delivery plan that spans the entire year. The first devices are now finished. When the news came in from Wuhan, the consequences were almost predictable. We are familiar with them from the SARS crisis.

Dräger: There is little point in adapting unused production capacity to manufacture respiratory aids. I spoke with Daimler over the weekend. They would also like to help. But it’s unfortunately not so simple. We can’t build cars either. Before we invest too much thought into this, we should focus on getting devices that are sitting around in a basement somewhere back into working order. Or can we repurpose other devices? There is a lot of potential there.

Dräger: No. At first, almost all of the devices went to China, where need was greatest. They needed a rather simple device, and we were able to produce 400 of them a week. The device turns ambient air into purified air, only requires an electrical socket and, if necessary, an oxygen cylinder, and requires no connection to a hospital's medical gas supply system.

 

[Synkreto]

I myself might not be bound to the Hippocratic oath (why you couldnt have just said that eludes me); but the doctors who I have to deliver stores, shipmates, soldiers, civillians and airmen to in either serious outbreaks (such as Ebola in '09), humanitarian missions (such as caribbean hurricane season) or god forbid, proper military deployments are.

I quoted the whole text so hopefully, some people read it ( it is not the Hippocratic oath ) .

 

[jasonbarron]

A point I raised a few weeks ago was that this pandemic would fundamentally alter the landscape of our future cultural expectations going forward in the years to follow, namely western civ's obsession with navel gazing and the trashing of traditional conservative family values. Interestingly nobody picked up on it at the time (similarly when I predicted obesity would become an integral part of the data set), but I'm now we're starting to see the tiniest little hints of what I was getting at in various opinion pieces here and there. This author doesn't look as far into the ramifications as I do, but it's one of the first signs that people are beginning to tumble to the wider, big picture implications of current events:

Now I finally understand what my grandparents knew

Holed up with her teenage girls, Allison Glock reflects that small as it was, her grandparents lives decades ago in the Appalachians, held beauty. Today, in a time of coronavirus, "in those long, vacant hours, free of clutter and busyness and traditional validation, we will have to learn how to...

www.cnn.com

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

Just a reminder that what is being considered (or already taking place) is triage; the assessment and categorization of patients based on both the severity of their condition and the prognosis taking into account all known variables. This is a medical assessment, performed by medical staff. It is not a moral judgement, and I suggest we do not start an elaborate discussion regarding who 'deserves to die' the most.

The problem is, when you start talking about triage in a crisis situation, a lot of people REALLY don't like it and lash out against it.

Because of the era we live, the desire to politicise everything and the way we now hold discourse, this means assuming that anyone supporting it is trying to prioritise ethnically cleansing a vulnerable/minority group, and is a bad person whereas you (who oppose such things) are a good 'woke' person who rails against the social injustice of it all.

A case in point (albeit slightly off-topic) was I had a discussion with a friends wife on the idea of them implementing special powers to allow them to incarcerating individuals working against the better good of society in this crisis indefinitely till it passes (such as the idiots slashing ambulance tires in Ramsgate at the moment).

She somehow made the logical leap that extra state powers could lead to the LGBT/Obese/Feminists being rounded up, because they are the enemy of the patriarchal state, and I was somehow in favour of this.

I quoted the whole text so hopefully, some people read it ( it is not the Hippocratic oath ) .

Except of course, that it is.

I just googled the whole of your copy pasta, and guess what was the first result.

Evolution of Medical Ethics: Hippocratic Oath (Modern Version)