General / Off-Topic The safest place

[Synkreto]

I wonder if that would work on some of the people behind all the dividing. Play them against each other. Interesting thought, because all the good ol' well known methods of making the World become a better place obviously don't seem work very well.

Why do that ? So much effort - for what ? Simply, do not be a pawn . Stop trying to get the carrot . STOP doing things, then START doing the other things .

There is no Spoon .

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I'm on the side of being able to go to the grocery store...

 

[Ralph Vargr]

The curfew has not affected the supply situation. I was able to shop pretty normally, using my mask. We are under curfew for tonight and tomorrow night. Since I'm hiding out, I'm doing pretty OK for an old dog. I have food, water, meds, and shelter.

Some of the small retail outlets were closed, others were open, but empty. Groceries and fuel are the main destinations.

 

[Ian Skippy]

That people see this issue as a threat that rivals a global pandemic should be telling. Most of these protesters aren't in denial about the seriousness of COVID-19 (and the one's I've seen are doing the best they can with regard to PPE and distancing), they just see a problem that cannot wait any longer to address. Authority crackdowns, because some such agencies, and the policy makers behind them, would rather respond swiftly with the wrong answer, rather than appear to hesitate and exercise restraint while considering a better one, are making things worse.

"I see your point, but now is not the right time to protest." is an argument that to my knowledge is used pretty much every single time there is a protest regarding perceived social injustice no matter when or how. We're struggling with protest and COVID19 in the Netherlands as well, but so far the prevailing notion is that while we should obviously take the COVID19 crisis into consideration protest is a fundamental right in a free democracy. Protesters don't get to burn other people's property, and the state doesn't get to enforce a curfew either. Seems fair and balanced.

 

[ianw]

"I see your point, but now is not the right time to protest." is an argument that to my knowledge is used pretty much every single time there is a protest regarding perceived social injustice no matter when or how. We're struggling with protest and COVID19 in the Netherlands as well, but so far the prevailing notion is that while we should obviously take the COVID19 crisis into consideration protest is a fundamental right in a free democracy. Protesters don't get to burn other people's property, and the state doesn't get to enforce a curfew either. Seems fair and balanced.

Actually I think this is quite different.

If large scale public gatherings, festivals, sports events etc. are not allowed or strongly advised against because of concerns about covid transmission then I don't see how you can justify making exceptions for protest.

Either these gatherings are potentially dangerous or they aren't - the virus cannot distinguish between protest or non-protest transmission.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Actually I think this is quite different.

If large scale public gatherings, festivals, sports events etc. are not allowed or strongly advised against because of concerns about covid transmission then I don't see how you can justify making exceptions for protest.

Either these gatherings are potentially dangerous or they aren't - the virus cannot distinguish between protest or non-protest transmission.

The difference is that festivals and sport events are not a crucial element of democracy. You balance the measures with regards to risk of the event and importance of the event, and having a functioning democracy ranks pretty high on the scale of importance. Thats why hair saloons were initially closed but emergency dentistry services were not. Same number of people involved, different ranking of importance. Same here: watching someone throw a ball isn't considered as important as a fundamental aspect of democracy, so we allow more risks with the latter than the former.

 

[ianw]

The difference is that festivals and sport events are not a crucial element of democracy. You balance the measures with regards to risk of the event and importance of the event, and having a functioning democracy ranks pretty high on the scale of importance. Thats why hair saloons were initially closed but emergency dentistry services were not. Same number of people involved, different ranking of importance. Same here: watching someone throw a ball isn't considered as important as a fundamental aspect of democracy, so we allow more risks with the latter than the former.

That example doesn't really work here - dentist surgeries were close and appointments have been nigh on impossible to get.

I understand the difference between protest and sports but some people would consider the freedom to participate in lawful acts as also a vital part of democracy.

The irony as that in the last couple of days there has been a lot of focus on the disproportionate effect of the virus on members of the black and minority Asian communities yet these protests are likely to cause more problems for the very people they are trying to support.

And as always - the people participating aren't just taking the risk for themselves - they're also forcing it on everyone they interact with.

As I said earlier if it's the wrong time from the spreading virus point of view then it's the wrong time full stop. Any other time is different.

I suspect we won't be able to find agreement on this.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I'm past sixty, have respiratory issues, and have lots of reasons to stay indoors. Most humans get "cabin fever", and will do things out of irrational exuberance, once freed. Those viral vectors are no respecters of just about anything. So, going out, and going crazy now has a great deal more risk than usual.

 

[Ian Skippy]

That example doesn't really work here - dentist surgeries were close and appointments have been nigh on impossible to get.

I understand the difference between protest and sports but some people would consider the freedom to participate in lawful acts as also a vital part of democracy.

The irony as that in the last couple of days there has been a lot of focus on the disproportionate effect of the virus on members of the black and minority Asian communities yet these protests are likely to cause more problems for the very people they are trying to support.

And as always - the people participating aren't just taking the risk for themselves - they're also forcing it on everyone they interact with.

As I said earlier if it's the wrong time from the spreading virus point of view then it's the wrong time full stop. Any other time is different.

I suspect we won't be able to find agreement on this.

I think you forget not all of us live in the same place. For example, emergency dentistry services were never closed here.

In any case, you are thinking very binary about this. In truth the very essence of policy making is balancing various needs and wants in such a way that freedom is as little restricted as possible while preventing healthcare overload. Some things remain possible no matter what ("essential workers"), others are restricted or not depending on the regional conditions.

We can agree for sure on the relative importance of this or that. But the idea that if something is not allowed everything else should not be allowed either simply seems, well, wrong.

 

[Morbad]

And as always - the people participating aren't just taking the risk for themselves - they're also forcing it on everyone they interact with.

Which is why I'm here arguing with bunch of old farts on forums, rather than trying to martyr myself on the batons and tear gas canisters of my occasional oppressors. Well, also laziness, and enough experience with beatings to have an acquired aversion to them.

Not sure what's a greater threat overall, especially for the groups current issues apply to most (a 1-in1000 chance of dying via police violence and a significantly higher chance of being ruined by it, can really add up over decades) and it's not my place to stop others from acting according to their consciences, however.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

We have a curfew in place tonight. I'm staying inside playing Traveller using Microsoft Teams as our conference software. There is nothing constructive I can do otherwise.

 

[ianw]

Indeed but the protests are not government sanctioned and they've done much to stop them. Clearly some out on the streets have weighed up the risks and decided being out protesting is more important right now than the virus.

Did you mean they haven't done much to stop them?

Yes, some people are starting to do whatever they feel like (to be fair a very small minority haven't made any concessions to the virus/"lockdown" right from the off), that said there is definitely a sense of things winding down. Look at all the people mobbing the beaches - though that presumably carries less risk of physical confrontation and being herded together than protesting (apart from the other day in the UK when two helicopters needed to land on the beach and ferry the idiots at Durdle Door to hospital).

 

[ianw]

I think you forget not all of us live in the same place. For example, emergency dentistry services were never closed here.

In any case, you are thinking very binary about this. In truth the very essence of policy making is balancing various needs and wants in such a way that freedom is as little restricted as possible while preventing healthcare overload. Some things remain possible no matter what ("essential workers"), others are restricted or not depending on the regional conditions.

We can agree for sure on the relative importance of this or that. But the idea that if something is not allowed everything else should not be allowed either simply seems, well, wrong.

I didn't forget - that's why I said "here" (as in the UK) my wife had an extraction just before everything got shut down and was unable to get a follow up appointment when it was still very painful a week or so after. It's something I keep reminding myself of - the situation is very different from country to country as you alluded to earlier in your post about Belgium's numbers.

You are absolutely right about my binary thinking. I am able to see shades of grey but when it comes to stuff like this I reduce it to the simplest choice - make it - and then stick to that point of view. I frame it in such a way that I try to leave you (or anyone I'm making a point to) with as few points to come back on as possible. I don't have a problem admitting an error, if I can see it, but I'm lazy and can't be bothered to get into endless back and forths generally speaking.

I can agree that if something is not allowed everything else should not be allowed either simply seems, well, wrong. But that wasn't my main point.

But my binary position is if there is a continued risk of the infection sparking up and killing more people then protesting now (as opposed to later when there is far less risk) is not justifiable at all. Moreso when the people protesting are not just risking themselves.

I fully acknowledge the seriousness of the issue - I had no idea the situation in the US was/is as bad it seems to be - but I don't believe it justifies more covid deaths than would otherwise happen here in the UK (if that is what is likely to happen).

 

[Ian Skippy]

@ianw I see your point. I think it is a very complex situation, further complicated by the various circumstances we all find ourselves in. We could indeed easily spin this into an endless back-and-forth, but as you'd rather not I'd just conclude by saying I hope everyone is able to do what they think is morally right while being mindful of the risks that entails to others, and acting accordingly.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

The curfew has not affected the supply situation. I was able to shop pretty normally, using my mask. We are under curfew for tonight and tomorrow night. Since I'm hiding out, I'm doing pretty OK for an old dog. I have food, water, meds, and shelter.

Some of the small retail outlets were closed, others were open, but empty. Groceries and fuel are the main destinations.

Yes, this really is not the time to go out socializing/shopping, etc in the US metropolitan areas.
Tried going to a bookstore yesterday. Subluxated a patella just walking because my quads are that weak now. Still having weight loss and malabsorbtion from the surgery. Adopting your adaptations myself, as I can no longer rely on physical abilities as before. It's improved today, can go up the stairs again. Lost about 15 pounds so far. I like the leaner look, but miss the power. In about 2 weeks we can start weight training again - it will be a long road back.

 

[metatheurgist]

Ironically the virus is not racist. But the countries that were screwed before the protests were already screwed, they will just be screwed worse and faster now. Absent friends would say that's a good thing.

 

[BirdWisdom]

Delete!

 

[Patrick_68000]

Brazil's case count and death rate had just surpassed the US, before their society decided to get someone "to hold my beer and watch this". If that someone were me, I'd leave the bar immediately.

Many jokey comments, puns and nicknames redacted. The only way to laugh at this is hysterically. Enormous numbers of people are going to be affected by the likely outbreak expansion.

More than 1300 dead Wednesday in Brazil in 24 hours.

How to make the physical distance between the poor people in the favelas ?

The number of dead and contaminated is largely underestimated, they say.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Where did you read that? The John Hopkins website reports about 1.8 million cases in the US and 0.5 million in Brazil.

He was talking for a day.

 

[lysan]

People don’t care anymore I see people kiss and hug as usual, riots, yup everything is back to normal.