General / Off-Topic The safest place

Yes>might take a while, but I can see things slowly heading that way at some point>say what?>yes>more or less>apparently more than you

Haven't you gotten anything better than attempting to marginalize me with the tired and worn out from overuse tactic of belittling & mis-characterization? Let me know when you have something with some meat on the bone.
The victim card....again . Like a broken record . Tried an tested I guess, works for you usually ?
 
Tomorrow, I renew my monthly meds. It's a good thing that I qualified for the unemployment stimulus benefits. It's now looking like July/August for any definitive outlook.

The birds chirping at 0300 CDT local are driving me (censored by filter). Environmental effects? There is less vehicle pollution.
The Covid also has advantages. :)
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As far as I can tell it's not "science" that I'm disagreeing with but rather the dissemination of information. And ironically "religious zealots" is almost exactly how I personally view most people who aren't necessarily scientists themselves but are so often found pontificating on various forums and discussion groups about scientific subjects. These people are the most close minded folks I've ever encountered. And interestingly as we've seen so clearly on the current pandemic issue is that what is held up as "science" can't even stand up to rationale discussion without the censorship filters slamming down.

I guess it's futile to recommend a little work on your self-perception?
 
You can’t deny that there are one or two people here that are quick to resort to juvenile tactics of mockery and keep recirculating old media sound bites in an attempt to belittle.

In other news, another high profile victim of COVID:
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-labour-demands-explanation-after-reports-dominic-cummings-broke-lockdown-rules-11993051
I think it’s a little too easy to point at trump and laugh, I find it hard not to myself!
But I think most people here though are happy to point out the flaws of any gov, not just America’s.
I had a long discussion with my brother yesterday, I thought I knew him well, but some of his attitudes and beliefs that have surfaced during this lockdown have surprised me.
We actually have a lot of common ground but the issues are in the detail;
I think Jason has some valid points about freedom of choice and self sufficiency, and caution of the press!; the difficulty is context.
I can’t speak for him, but i feel his life path has led him to be cautious of any authority and belief in if you want something, then do it yourself;
I think this also equates to some of the american idea of freedom.
We in Europe are a little more used to trusting our gov a little more (mostly) or at least enjoying some of the social benefits of being looked after by the state. Well, our gov’s are not usually led by film stars / reality tv stars etc.
Personally, I’m somewhere in between.
@jason, I appreciate you wanting the freedom to live your life as you choose, facing covid as you choose based on your beliefs but I guess my question is about the impact of that choice on other people. How prepared are you to adjust your lifestyle to help protect others?
I guess humanity has the whole spectrum of different psychological traits for an evolved reason- some people have more empathy, some have more gung-ho attitudes, some like being told what to do and some want all the power :)
I’d like to believe that this pandemic will lay bare our thin veneer of ‘civilisation’ and break the illusion that we had to abide by the rules of prepandemic normal.
The medical and economic suffering this pandemic has caused is nothing compared to the challenges that will arrive from climate change (human caused or not).
The expected 8% carbon reduction this year because of the pandemic is staggering. All the planes and industry and cars not being used and still only 8%....
Maybe the optimistic me believes that some leaders will recognise the fallacy of only looking at short term gains.
Edit: but yeah, probably won’t :)
 
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I think this also equates to some of the american idea of freedom.
We in Europe are a little more used to trusting our gov a little more (mostly) or at least enjoying some of the social benefits of being looked after by the state. Well, our gov’s are not usually led by film stars / reality tv stars etc.
I don't trust the governments I live under any more than I can throw the collective mass of their employees. The very suggestion that I need to be governed is never going gain any traction with me; I could not draft a plan for a government I would accept without attempting to undermine and the odds of anyone else being able to do so are nil. Government and laws are for those that need them.

I still think it's absurd to seek out malicious conspiracies when incompetence, complacency, and indifference more than suffice to explain any behavioral phenomena in question regarding government responses to this pandemic. Opinions involving conspiracy theories, denials of well-substantiated facts, or that give more weight to wild speculation than credible inference, are not valid and have no place in rational discussion, irrespective of one's personal views on the trustworthiness of government and/or the media.

The people pushing this tripe aren't looking for freedom from governance, they are looking for freedom from reality. Reality sucks, get used to it. Your leaders are morons or monsters because it's a virtual prerequisite of being willing to shoulder that kind of responsibility. You live in a dystopia...of the most boring and banal kind imaginable. So did your ancestors, and without radical changes to the very nature of humanity, so will your descendants. This isn't because of any conspiracy; it's just people being what they are. Excepting those who checkout early, or are able to sustain blissful ignorance, we all find ways to cope with this.

I’d like to believe that this pandemic will lay bare our thin veneer of ‘civilisation’ and break the illusion that we had to abide by the rules of prepandemic normal.
Indeed, the old 'normal', and every normal before that, was shaped to it's time and generally to the idea that it could last forever...but it never does. Times change.

There are three times as many people on this planet as when the oldest members active in this thread were young and the world is more interconnect than ever. A pandemic was inevitable (though this is not to say that there was nothing that could have been done for any given case). Given how sloppy the global response has been, we're fortunate something as relatively mild as SARS-CoV-2 was the wake up call.

We're not at a 'new normal' yet, as far as reactions to this and potential future pandemics go, but some aspects of life that are novel now will become entrenched. In any case, there is no returning to the old normal.
 

Ian Phillips

Volunteer Moderator
Ok, this has got a touch tetchy, and my fellow moderators have been busy I see.

A reminder:
When you reply to a post, discuss the points that are being made. If there are no points in the post, then don't reply. It's simple really.
Do not discuss the poster, their education or lack thereof, personal hygene or anything else you might think of about them.
Lastly, if you find someones posts, for whatever reason, objectionable then the forum does provide an 'Ignore' option.

And of course don't forget how pigeons play chess.
 
I think it’s a little too easy to point at trump and laugh, I find it hard not to myself!
But I think most people here though are happy to point out the flaws of any gov, not just America’s.
I had a long discussion with my brother yesterday, I thought I knew him well, but some of his attitudes and beliefs that have surfaced during this lockdown have surprised me.
We actually have a lot of common ground but the issues are in the detail;
I think Jason has some valid points about freedom of choice and self sufficiency, and caution of the press!; the difficulty is context.
I can’t speak for him, but i feel his life path has led him to be cautious of any authority and belief in if you want something, then do it yourself;
I think this also equates to some of the american idea of freedom.
We in Europe are a little more used to trusting our gov a little more (mostly) or at least enjoying some of the social benefits of being looked after by the state. Well, our gov’s are not usually led by film stars / reality tv stars etc.
Personally, I’m somewhere in between.
@jason, I appreciate you wanting the freedom to live your life as you choose, facing covid as you choose based on your beliefs but I guess my question is about the impact of that choice on other people. How prepared are you to adjust your lifestyle to help protect others?
I guess humanity has the whole spectrum of different psychological traits for an evolved reason- some people have more empathy, some have more gung-ho attitudes, some like being told what to do and some want all the power :)
I’d like to believe that this pandemic will lay bare our thin veneer of ‘civilisation’ and break the illusion that we had to abide by the rules of prepandemic normal.
The medical and economic suffering this pandemic has caused is nothing compared to the challenges that will arrive from climate change (human caused or not).
The expected 8% carbon reduction this year because of the pandemic is staggering. All the planes and industry and cars not being used and still only 8%....
Maybe the optimistic me believes that some leaders will recognise the fallacy of only looking at short term gains.
Edit: but yeah, probably won’t :)
Everything is said here.

Regarding Jason, I think he is pure in his love of freedom.

But we are all fundamentally in love with freedom.

But in community, the freedom must be controlled so as not to harm other people.
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I guess you're not a huge fan of the concept of a social contract, and even though I am, I can't recall ever having signed one.

Covid-19 is not the flu. It's way more deadly than your average flu, and it's more contagious. The best estimates of the case fatality rate is that it will kill 1-3% of anyone being infected, including the unreported cases. To reach herd immunity we need to have an immunity of 70-90% of the global population. We are not even close. You will not find many politicians that will tell the truth, that most countries are aiming at herd immunity, because the price of that will probably be several hundred million deaths. Saving the economy seems important to most people, but paying with 200 million lives would probably be considered a crime against humanity in future history books.

The economic impact of shutting down societies around the globe, on the other hand, will also cost lives, and probably even more than the pandemic. It's interesting and worth reflecting upon, that the old debate concerning deontology vs utilitarianism quickly died, once the crap hit the fan. You can't save lives using deontology to model what is the right thing to do in this situation it seems, so everyone is looking into their spreadsheets instead. If you were in a spaceship looking down upon the current planet, that would probably be the right thing to do, but seen from down here, I'm not so sure. I knew one who already died, and looking at the grief that has caused, lives are hard to put a price upon, once that life is not just a number in a spreadsheet but someone you knew and liked.
 
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It's been proven to be far less transmittable and deadly than the common flu where I live. It's virtually nonexistent, in fact. Weirdly so.

Edit: and that figure of 200 million fatalities...holy smokes man, that's just ridiculous and pulled right from the dark, unscientific recesses of your backside.

Further edit: and yes @LeoBartlet85 the vast majority of people wearing masks are woke virtue signalling
 
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