General / Off-Topic The SNP is wrong. There has been no material change in circumstances.

[Sunleader]

After the terms clear? It's only going to be clear after it's triggered. This is what TM wants, so she can keep the mover advantage to herself. Don't let it!

Makes no Difference to be honest.
Scotland cant apply to the EU before its out of the UK AND the UK is out of the EU.
As until then the UK could Veto Scotland Applying.

Moreover Sturgeons Idea on this is pretty simple.
Right now before they actually left. The Consequences are still pretty obscured.
Many People dont yet have an idea of just how bad this is going for the UK right now.

But when the Negotiations are done. People will be Painfully aware of just how bad things are.
Giving Sturgeon a nice Boost to Voters in a Referendum for Scotlands Independence.


Still nice Speech of our Brexiteer OP on why Scotland should be denied Free Will.
Its Hilarious just how Anti Democratic Brexiteers are after caring so much for their own Advisory Referendum to be regarded as the Ultimate Force....

 

[SeeZaa]

It was explicit in their manifesto that they'd very likely hold a referendum if the UK voted to leave the EU but Scotland hadn't. They were elected to power. I'm not sure why you're trying to twist it so that this is somehow undemocratic.



Despite their staggering lack of leadership in the last independence campaign? Despite their inability to lift the countless constituencies they had for decades out of poverty? Despite the fact they took us to war based on a lie and started selling off the NHS in England. Despite the fact there is no sign of anything resembling leadership in the party across the country? Scotland's vote rarely changes the result at Westminster too much (check the records if you doubt me) so unless Labour perform a spectacular turn around within a year then any decent thinking left leaning person in England should tell the Scots to get out while they can and wish them well instead of demanding they stick around for the racist death spiral that is English politics right now.

Scotland is part of the UK, so when Sturgeon flames the UK about its abandoning of the EU, and the string of many nouns she uses to describe those south of the border who are forcibly removing Scotland from the EU against her will, is she referring to the UK that includes Scotland.. as per the referendum? or a UK that includes just us Scots who voted for a Brexit? or, is she trying to paint the English and Welsh as the destroyers of democracy, while she herself is either

A) ignoring the democratic majority that wanted to remain part of the UK, with an understanding that a Brexit vote was likely?

or

B) pushing Scotland to do the exact same thing to the UK, that she has been so vocally opposed to the UK doing to the EU?

the woman is motivated by her own ego, and is the very definition of an English hating bigot, who cant see far enough past her own prejudice, to understand that, even going through the motions of a new independence referendum, will be irrevocably detrimental to the entire UK. because whether she likes it or not, we are still part of the UK, and what effects 1 of us effects all of us. so she can hoist our saltire as high as she wants, and aye, we'll all stand and salute it, but as beautiful as our flag is, you cant eat it, it wont pay the bills, and has no value outside Scotland.

 

[Adept]

Why would you go for a super majority when Brexit was not such, KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid, 50+1% and job done.

I agree. And advisory referendums are apparently binding as well.

 

[Javert]

I agree. And advisory referendums are apparently binding as well.

I have to say I disagree (although I suspect you're being sarcastic).

Decisions which will effectively change the constitutional arrangements of a country permanently, have an impact that lasts much longer than a normal electoral period, and/or can never be reversed should require some higher standard than single 50/50 decision.

As I mentioned above, some countries, including the USA, recognize this in their constitution by requiring a 2/3 vote of both houses to change it.

Edit: With Brexit, there is a valid counter argument you could try - i.e. the original decision to enter the EU was on a 50/50 basis, so why should the later one not be the same. It's a valid point, but my response is that 2 wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Patrick_68000]

The EU and the UK are not the same. They're fundamentally different at countless levels.

This is the reason why they separates

 

[Lianachan]

I agree. And advisory referendums are apparently binding as well.

Brexit definitely set a precedent for an advisory referendum becoming "the will of the people" and being railroaded through.

 

[Adept]

I have to say I disagree (although I suspect you're being sarcastic).

Decisions which will effectively change the constitutional arrangements of a country permanently, have an impact that lasts much longer than a normal electoral period, and/or can never be reversed should require some higher standard than single 50/50 decision.

As I mentioned above, some countries, including the USA, recognize this in their constitution by requiring a 2/3 vote of both houses to change it.

Edit: With Brexit, there is a valid counter argument you could try - i.e. the original decision to enter the EU was on a 50/50 basis, so why should the later one not be the same. It's a valid point, but my response is that 2 wrongs don't make a right.

May's government's position is that the advisory Brexit referendum "is the will of the people, and must be respected". Hence, if the Scots hold an "advisory" referendum on leaving the UK, the results will be the will of the Scottish people, and must be respected. It's their own crazy rules, so Scotland should just play by them. Apparently that's how it's done in the UK right now.

 

[Minonian]

This is the reason why they separates

Which country is the same like the other in the EU?

- - - Updated - - -

Makes no Difference to be honest.
Scotland cant apply to the EU before its out of the UK AND the UK is out of the EU.
As until then the UK could Veto Scotland Applying.

Timing sometimes is everything a moment too soon, or too late? And the whole action is useless, or worst.

But when the Negotiations are done. People will be Painfully aware of just how bad things are.
Giving Sturgeon a nice Boost to Voters in a Referendum for Scotlands Independence.

True! What timing determines in there what she wishes? Independence to Scotland, OR to stay in the EU altogether?

 

[Red Anders]

Why would you go for a super majority when Brexit was not such, KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid, 50+1% and job done.

In referendums, 50%+1, especially on an issue which will give a close vote anyway, satisfies nobody. It does however give rise to beautiful hypocrisy such as this...

Nigel Farage talking in May 2016 about the possibility of Remain winning the Brexit referendum with a 52/48 split:

"In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it."

Nigel Farage talking in June 2016 after Leave won the Brexit referendum with a 52/48 split:

"A victory for ordinary, decent people. It’s not a game of the best of three."

 

[Talarin]

Scotland is part of the UK, so when Sturgeon flames the UK about its abandoning of the EU, and the string of many nouns she uses to describe those south of the border who are forcibly removing Scotland from the EU against her will, is she referring to the UK that includes Scotland.. as per the referendum? or a UK that includes just us Scots who voted for a Brexit? or, is she trying to paint the English and Welsh as the destroyers of democracy...

Straight out - with respect, I'm going to disregard the second half of your post.

I think that there is a strategic element to the actions of the SNP around Brexit and a deliberate effort is being made to play the "Westminster doesn't care about Scotland" card with the objective of drumming up support for IndyRef2.

If you look at the two major positions that have been taken (referring to the Scottish Government's position paper on Brexit and this call for a referendum) neither of them have been something that Westminster can practically agree to. But, given that the primary objective of the SNP is to secure Scottish independence, that's a perfectly reasonable strategy for them to take and it's up to Westminster to manage that.

I think Theresa May made a political fool of herself in the last 24 hours with the flat rejection of a proposition which hadn't actually even been made yet. It played right into Sturgeon's hands and you have to applaud her for that.

At the same time, there's two interesting (at least to me) elements here:

Support for IndyRef2, and a yes vote, seems marginal. The somewhat contentious YouGov/Times 57/43 poll actually isn't if you dig into the actual detail, which shows; No: 48%, Yes: 36%, Undecided: 16%. See YouGov. That's not actually too far out of line with the aggregate results of other recent polling. (But, of course, polls are polls and don't reflect reality.)

The ScotCen Social Attitudes survey (click in the page for the full report, where a lot of the following comes from) shows increasing support for independence, but also increasing levels of Euro-Scepticism (25% want out, 42% want its powers curtailed - support for Leave has actually doubled from 12% in the last decade). This begs a question about the (unlikely) possibility of (assuming that there will be two referendums) Scotland voting to leave the Union, but then refusing to join the EU.

Apparently, 1/3 of those who would vote to quit the Union actually voted Leave (that's quite surprising to me so may be a statistical quirk).

 

[LeoBartlet]

The SNP is wrong.

Thats pretty much all I needed.

Wee Jimmy Krankie is an opportunist who is using the EU leave vote to push her nationalistic agenda to split the UK.

Nothing more and nothing less.

What is amazing though is the economic case for independence was shot out the water (pun intended) when the price of oil cratered. Not to mention the fun fact that more cross border trade happens between Scotland and the remainder of the UK than Scotland/EU.

If and when a new Neverendum begins I no doubt Wee Jimmy and Aly will ignore those facts and focus on the evil tories. Again they ignore the fact that Scotland has lots of devolved powers over Schools, Hospitals and Police that they've steadily ignored over the last decade to focus on their Independence obsession.

 

[Sunleader]

The SNP is wrong.

Thats pretty much all I needed.

Wee Jimmy Krankie is an opportunist who is using the EU leave vote to push her nationalistic agenda to split the UK.

Nothing more and nothing less.

What is amazing though is the economic case for independence was shot out the water (pun intended) when the price of oil cratered. Not to mention the fun fact that more cross border trade happens between Scotland and the remainder of the UK than Scotland/EU.

If and when a new Neverendum begins I no doubt Wee Jimmy and Aly will ignore those facts and focus on the evil tories. Again they ignore the fact that Scotland has lots of devolved powers over Schools, Hospitals and Police that they've steadily ignored over the last decade to focus on their Independence obsession.

Honestly said. I dont see much Econmic prohlems for Scotland.
Ask Luxembourg, Belgium and Netherlands how much Oil they got.

The EU is an Gigantic Trade Market. Bigger and with Fairer Conditions than any of the Countries in Europe could ever hope to Negotiate in a Trade Deal.
Given that currently Scotland is Governed by Westminster and thus most Grotw etc going to England rather than Scotland. Because Scotland is focused on raw Ressources instead.
Indepence could turn out to be a boost for Scotland as well.
Because with the Industry from England having to pay Border Taxes for Ressources alot of Companies might consider moving to Scotland.


I wont comment on the motives of Individuals.
But if nothing else. I dont think any Brexiteer has the tiniest right to complain when Scotland wants Indepedence.
At least Scotland is actually an Annexed Territory which was Conquered and Swallowed.
Unlike the UK which joined the EU of their free will and signed contracts and treaties never giving up their indepedence.
Scotland actually can make the case of demanding independence as they are in fact an Annexed territory.

 

[Lianachan]

The SNP is wrong.

Thats pretty much all I needed.

Wee Jimmy Krankie is an opportunist who is using the EU leave vote to push her nationalistic agenda to split the UK.

Nothing more and nothing less.

What is amazing though is the economic case for independence was shot out the water (pun intended) when the price of oil cratered. Not to mention the fun fact that more cross border trade happens between Scotland and the remainder of the UK than Scotland/EU.

If and when a new Neverendum begins I no doubt Wee Jimmy and Aly will ignore those facts and focus on the evil tories. Again they ignore the fact that Scotland has lots of devolved powers over Schools, Hospitals and Police that they've steadily ignored over the last decade to focus on their Independence obsession.

You really don't know much about Scotland, do you?

 

[LeoBartlet]

Honestly said. I dont see much Econmic prohlems for Scotland.
Ask Luxembourg, Belgium and Netherlands how much Oil they got.

Wasnt it said by experts the other day that Scotland has a 15 billion pound deficit? and that for an independent Scotland to balance its books they would need to cut spending (fat chance of the cherished welfare state being slashed) or raise taxes?

Again those facts will be disputed or ignored by the nationalists.

I wont comment on the motives of Individuals.
But if nothing else. I dont think any Brexiteer has the tiniest right to complain when Scotland wants Indepedence.
At least Scotland is actually an Annexed Territory which was Conquered and Swallowed.

Conquered and swallowed by its own stupidity perhaps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme

Unlike the UK which joined the EU of their free will and signed contracts and treaties never giving up their indepedence.
Scotland actually can make the case of demanding independence as they are in fact an Annexed territory.

I'll put that down to ignorance.

 

[LeoBartlet]

You really don't know much about Scotland, do you?

Well only lived in Scotland for 31 out of 31 years so yea totally ignorant.

Tell me what specifically troubles you about my assessment?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/higher/modern/uk_gov_politics/gov_sco/revision/1/

That lists the devolved powers for the Scotch Parliament^

While Westminster has control over how money is allocated its important to remember that more is spent per person in Scotland that most parts of the UK with the exception of Ireland I believe.

Here's another few details

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38207729

^ Scottish Schools dropping below other nations

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...acing-190-million-black-hole-following-years/

^ oh problems with the police too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37789173

^ oh my problems with the hospitals too.

Now look again at Scotlands devolved matters and who has been in charge since 2007.

But by all means lets focus on independence because all those problems will disappear once the tories are vanquished.

 

[Moonax IRL]

In referendums, 50%+1, especially on an issue which will give a close vote anyway, satisfies nobody. It does however give rise to beautiful hypocrisy such as this...

Nigel Farage talking in May 2016 about the possibility of Remain winning the Brexit referendum with a 52/48 split:

"In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it."

Nigel Farage talking in June 2016 after Leave won the Brexit referendum with a 52/48 split:

"A victory for ordinary, decent people. It’s not a game of the best of three."

50+1% is a democratic majority regardless of how you cut it. When a border poll takes place for a United Ireland it will suffice.

The big issue in relation to a referendum for Scottish independence is the unstoppable momentum towards that independence goal.
Unionism has to accept that Scotland is gone and the UK is in the endgame. To believe otherwise is just happy delusions. While I am loathe to agree with a Tory on anything, the endgame for the UK started with devolution. Devolution is by its nature always trying to maximise is legislative power, it is the very definition of a slippery slope.
This and the younger generation's 70+% support for Scottish Independence means that the issue will be constantly revisited until its a reality. If England had any sense they would face up to the inevitable and create a situation of good relations and cooperation with it's neighbours and get comfortable in its English skin. Brexit is the last gasp of a dying man and has just hastened that demise.
The UK's trajectory is in one direction and that is breakup, its already happening.

 

[Moonax IRL]

Redacted, satirical link wont pass the swear filter, pity.

 

[Red Anders]

Well only lived in Scotland for 31 out of 31 years so yea totally ignorant.

Tell me what specifically troubles you about my assessment?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/higher/modern/uk_gov_politics/gov_sco/revision/1/

That lists the devolved powers for the Scotch Parliament^

While Westminster has control over how money is allocated its important to remember that more is spent per person in Scotland that most parts of the UK with the exception of Ireland I believe.

Speaking of devolved powers and spending, Scotland will also be collecting money differently from 6th April.

Basic rate band of income tax in the rest of the UK for the 2017-18 tax year: £33,500

Basic rate band of income tax in Scotland for the 2017-18 tax year: £31,500

The Scottish parliament has the power to set its own tax rates and bands independent of the rest of the UK, despite the fact that it's still HMRC that actually administer the whole thing once the Scottish parliament has set the rates. The only element of the tax regime in Scotland which is fixed by Westminster is the tax-free personal allowance. Fairly significant power that.

I believe they also did some consultation around the impact of raising the additional rate (£150k and above) from 45% to 50%, although they haven't implemented it.

 

[Sunleader]

Wasnt it said by experts the other day that Scotland has a 15 billion pound deficit? and that for an independent Scotland to balance its books they would need to cut spending (fat chance of the cherished welfare state being slashed) or raise taxes?

Again those facts will be disputed or ignored by the nationalists.



Conquered and swallowed by its own stupidity perhaps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme




I'll put that down to ignorance.

1.
It has this deficit inside the UK.
But dont forget that Scotland is part of the UK.
So alot of Scotlands Taxes are taken by the UK.

But when Scotland is Independent it will pay far far less.
And will get way more taxes as the UK aint getting large parts of it.

This changes alot.
Alone UK Military is super expensive.


2.
Erm Mate.
Scotland was defeated and forced into submission roughly 500 years before your Story there.


3.
Maybe you should check all the Wars between England and Scotland.

 

[LeoBartlet]

Speaking of devolved powers and spending, Scotland will also be collecting money differently from 6th April.

Basic rate band of income tax in the rest of the UK for the 2017-18 tax year: £33,500

Basic rate band of income tax in Scotland for the 2017-18 tax year: £31,500

The Scottish parliament has the power to set its own tax rates and bands independent of the rest of the UK, despite the fact that it's still HMRC that actually administer the whole thing once the Scottish parliament has set the rates. The only element of the tax regime in Scotland which is fixed by Westminster is the tax-free personal allowance. Fairly significant power that.

Yea I was gonna mention that earlier on.

In fact the other parties in parliament asked last year for pennies to be added to the tax band for additional funding to Schools but the Nats said no.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-education&link_location=live-reporting-story

Yea so how can the SNP be trusted on Independence when they can't even get the day job right.