General / Off-Topic The SNP is wrong. There has been no material change in circumstances.

The SNP is wrong. There has been no material change in circumstances

There can only be one reason the SNP can justify demanding a second independence referendum and that is to demonstrate that there has been a material change in the circumstances of Scotland’s relationship with the rest of the United Kingdom.

Before we consider if there has been a material change or not, we first must understand why such a reason has become the defining issue upon which Nicola Sturgeon can make her demands.

After the last referendum there was much discussion amongst those who had supported the Yes campaign about how and when they could seek to have another referendum. Although understandably deflated by their defeat, many were still encouraged by the growth in their movement and the response that came after the votes had been counted and the No campaign had won.

Rather than curl up and hide under their downies, tens of thousands of Yes supporters joined the SNP, Greens and radical socialist parties. I personally know some people who did this.

Political leaders resolved that such expressions of commitment should not be wasted but instead could be nurtured so that come the day when there was another chance to have a vote they would be starting from a higher level and with a bigger base of committed supporters than before. That meant it was necessary to tell people they would be required again by giving them a goal to work to while at the same time placing the SNP firmly in charge of when to trigger a serious campaign.

After all, the initiation of a further referendum could not be left in the hands of some hotheads or the mob rule of a conference – it was understood that if independence was rejected a second time it would put back the cause of independence for a generation and cost many politicians their careers.

So it was agreed by the Yes board and repeated by SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon on many occasions, in interviews and speeches, that unless there was a change in material circumstances there would only be another referendum if there was a clear and persistent majority of the Scottish electorate in favour of independence. This was explained as meaning having a 60/40 lead in the polls for a period of six months.

Everyone on the nationalist movement appeared happy with this approach. It went down well at the SNP conference, presenting the party as graceful losers with a just cause that they could continue to campaign on, returning to a referendum later. After all, there was a general election to win in 2015 and a Holyrood election a year later. Rather than offer an outright commitment to a referendum in the party election manifestoes, reference was limited to there being a requirement for a change in material circumstances before a referendum would be held.

That is the background to the SNP’s process of justifying its future decision. Fast forward to Spring of 2017 and we are now on the cusp of a public demand by Nicola Sturgeon for a second independence referendum based upon the allegation that there has indeed been a “material change in circumstances” because Scotland voted to stay in the European Union while the UK as a whole voted to leave.

But has there been a material change in circumstances?

The answer is No, for the circumstances that prevailed when the 2014 referendum was held were that the likelihood of the UK leaving the EU was a real and material possibility. Let us remind ourselves of those circumstances.

In his well publicised Bloomberg speech of January 2013 David Cameron promised a referendum on EU membership if he were to command a majority in the 2015 – that was eighteen months before the Scottish independence referendum.

Then, only five months later in June, still more than a year before the independence referendum, the Conservatives published a Referendum Bill to emphasise their commitment to giving the British people a say on EU membership. It passed its first and second readings in the House of Commons but was stopped in the House of Lords because the Liberal Democrats refused to support it (even though they too had been demanding a referendum on EU membership).

All of these “circumstances” attracted a great deal of public comment and debate.

It should therefore have been obvious to every Scottish man, woman and the proverbial dog in the street that there could be an EU membership referendum if Scotland stayed in the UK, and that could mean Scotland ending up outside the EU. It was a known risk and people had to take account of it when they came to vote in the independence referendum.

Indeed the SNP did its level best to ensure everyone knew of this “circumstance”, including a section about it in the SNP Government’s own White Paper as one of the consequences of Scotland staying in the UK and shouting about it from the rooftops at every available opportunity. Scotland then voted to stay in the UK in a turn out of 84.6% by 2.0 million votes to 1.1 million.

When the Conservative’s general election victory arrived in June it was duly announced that the promised referendum would take place and that it would be a UK-wide decision with no veto for any city such as London or nation such as Scotland. The circumstance that we had known could materialise had prevailed. Then, not to anyone’s surprise, when the votes were counted Scotland’s and Northern Ireland’s electorates voted for the UK to stay in the EU while those of Wales and England voted to leave. When the votes were added together the leavers had it

All of these potential outcomes had been known on the day of the September 2014 independence referendum, meaning there has been no material change of circumstance – the EU referendum was always probable and the outcome of Brexit always possible.

The First Minister Nicola Sturgeon can project her own spin on to the referendum result, using phrases such as Scotland being “dragged” out of the EU, to whip up sentiment for her divisive case, but the reality is that Scots chose the United Kingdom in full possession of the facts of what might happen down the road.

This abuse of the truth in the name of pursuing her goal is nothing new for Nicola Sturgeon; it was she who told us that the independence referendum was a “once in a generation opportunity” and then went further by calling it a “once in a lifetime chance”. There is no shortage of photos of Nicola Sturgeon with placards that proclaim this passive aggressive blackmail. If she pushes forward demands for a second referendum she will have lied to us all – nationalists, unionists and agnostics – and she will be using a pretext that is itself a lie.

Nicola Sturgeon took a gamble. She thought that she could use the Brexit vote to whip-up anti-UK sentiment that would give her the lead in the polls she had sworn was required to have a second referendum. She kept pressing the big red button but the grievance machine just would not fire up. Rather than improve, the polls showed a fall in support for a second vote.

Scotland does not believe leaving the EU is a good enough reason to hold another referendum and shows no sign of believing that it is a reason to leave the UK. Could it be that enough people see through Nicola Sturgeon’s bitter confection and if forced to vote again will punish her for her duplicity?

http://www.thinkscotland.org/todays-thinking/articles.html?read_full=13053
 
We really should have a specific thread for Scottish independence.

Does it matter whether the pretext is valid? Recent polling suggests that it would be pretty close again (41 vs 44 with 13 undecided according to the Scotsman today, Ipsos Mori had it neck and neck last week). There's clearly weight behind the idea and I don't think anyone can really argue that Brexit doesn't mean a change on a high-profile reason in the previous campaign.

If it's that close and given the circumstances - let's do it. Westminster has to portray the world as they see it post-Brexit. The SNP/Greens in Scotland have to do similar and I'd argue that if they base their argument on a reliance on maintaining membership of the single market then they're off on a lost cause.

Is the change enough to swing the vote? I believe not - but then that's just my personal opinion.
 
The Scottish people would take a big risk by wanting to leave the UK for the EU. Because the EU has no future in its current construction
 
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We really should have a specific thread for Scottish independence.

Does it matter whether the pretext is valid? Recent polling suggests that it would be pretty close again (41 vs 44 with 13 undecided according to the Scotsman today, Ipsos Mori had it neck and neck last week). There's clearly weight behind the idea and I don't think anyone can really argue that Brexit doesn't mean a change on a high-profile reason in the previous campaign.

If it's that close and given the circumstances - let's do it. Westminster has to portray the world as they see it post-Brexit. The SNP/Greens in Scotland have to do similar and I'd argue that if they base their argument on a reliance on maintaining membership of the single market then they're off on a lost cause.

Is the change enough to swing the vote? I believe not - but then that's just my personal opinion.

The Scottish people would take a big risk by wanting to leave the UK for the EU. Because the EU has no future in its current construction

The SNP are nothing more than opportunists. The EU is merely a tool for them, in order for them to gain what they've always wanted - an Independent Scotland.

This is a fascinating read : www.sussex.ac.uk/sei/documents/epern-working-paper-22.pdf


ABSTRACT

Minority nationalist parties have been considered for several years as the most pro-European parties.
However, the concrete evidence and more recent studies have
demonstrated that not all minority nationalist parties support the EU and the
European integration process and that many of them, over time, have often changed
their European positions. This paper concentrates on the study of one case: the
Scottish National Party (SNP). It can be considered as a typical example of minority
nationalist parties that, have, over time, adopted different European attitudes. The
aim of this paper is to identify the main factors that explain the SNP’s changing
position towards the EU. In order to do this, the paper examines the historical
evolution of the SNP’s European positions and it particularly analyses the party’s
transition from euroscepticism to euro-enthusiasm at the end of the 1980’s and its
actual European position. Through the analysis of the different political contexts in
which the party acts, the paper concludes that the SNP’s previous and present
European policy and perspective can be understood more in relation to the “structure
of political opportunities” existent in the past in the UK and presently in Scotland,
rather than in relation to opportunities offered at the European level.
 
That's subjective opinion though. Scotland clearly didn't agree with that line of thinking, based on their results in the EU referendum.

Look at Italy today which is going to adopt a politics of fiscal dumping. Like many other European countries which give the priority to their national interests. No EU here. The EU is disintegrating
 
You actually think the UK has a future? Naive.

The UK has plenty of future ahead of it. The EU? Looking increasing unlikely every day. Note I speak of the European Union, not of Europe and the European countries.

I think it is only a matter of time before the EU as an entity, breaks up, and I think this will happen within the next 5-10 years, if not sooner.
 
The UK has plenty of future ahead of it. The EU? Looking increasing unlikely every day. Note I speak of the European Union, not of Europe and the European countries.

I think it is only a matter of time before the EU as an entity, breaks up, and I think this will happen within the next 5-10 years, if not sooner.

Yes, the EU current has no future because it is managed by a monstrous technocratic entity situated in Belgium
 
The SNP are opportunistic liars, "once in a generation chance" they said to yes voters. Even Plaid Cymru are trying their luck now (i'm Welsh) and there is no appetite for Welsh independence. I personally hope the Union survives these troubled times, we could use the help of Scotland to get rid of the tories once Corbyn is replaced, Scots need to go back to labour if they care about social issues and Jobs and healthcare (SNP want to get rid of many nuclear and military jobs).
 
As opposed to a monstrous autocratic entity situated in Westminster, I guess?

Or a autocratic entity in Holyrood. If the referendum comes down to "we want decisions made in Scotland" I'll be sorely disappointed. Because actually; why should decisions in Aberdeen not be made in Aberdeen? Same for Glasgow, Inverness, Dumfries etc. The rest of Scotland already suffers for relatively poor investment compared to the central belt.

This should be a referendum on values, economics and vision.
 
Full-Disclosure, I'm English and I believe Scotland is probably, on balance, better off as a part of the UK. However I suspect certain Scottish politicians would be better off (or believe they would be) if Scotland left - as it's nicer to be a big fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big one. Problem is that virtually everyone in this debate is lying in many respects. Like the old thing about "It's Scotland's Oil". Is it? Is it, really? - you don't think the claims have long-since been sold off to international companies, then? because - yes - they have. You can get tax from the extraction, yes, but not actually as much money as you might think. To be honest I think the whole phrase "Scottish Independence" is loaded - if you're dependent - why would you want to leave what you're dependent on? - Doesn't really make sense. Scotland is not - in my view - dependent on the UK. Scotland is an integral part of it, and not more "dependant" on it than your head is dependant on your torso.

My overall impression is that Brexit and Scottish independence are very similar. And people will be split along similar lines and vote emotionally (The "Braveheart effect"), rather than taking the time to read and research and reach a reasoned conclusion.
 
The SNP are opportunistic liars, "once in a generation chance" they said to yes voters.

The SNP don't get to decide that, the voters of Scotland do. And as we returned a pro-independence parliament last year, that means we get one if our democratically elected representatives say so. Or do you not like democracy?

Scots need to go back to labour if they care about social issues and Jobs and healthcare (SNP want to get rid of many nuclear and military jobs

Scottish Labour have proved themselves to be less than useful. They showed a dismal lack of leadership in the Scottish independence and Brexit votes and have been dismal at the local level for decades. Labour have a lot of work to do if they want to earn the trust of Scots again.

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My overall impression is that Brexit and Scottish independence are very similar. And people will be split along similar lines and vote emotionally (The "Braveheart effect"), rather than taking the time to read and research and reach a reasoned conclusion.

The difference in the % votes in the two referendums kind of disprove that suggestion. Also, Braveheart? Really? That's the straight bananas of the Scottish independence debate, or "McGodwin's Law" as some call it.
 
For Theresa May, the UK will be a strong country after the Brexit. She said in front of the parliament. "We will be a strong United Kingdom that will govern itself". Well I think Mrs Sturgeon will have difficulties concerning the independence of Scotland
 
The SNP don't get to decide that, the voters of Scotland do. And as we returned a pro-independence parliament last year, that means we get one if our democratically elected representatives say so. Or do you not like democracy?



Scottish Labour have proved themselves to be less than useful. They showed a dismal lack of leadership in the Scottish independence and Brexit votes and have been dismal at the local level for decades. Labour have a lot of work to do if they want to earn the trust of Scots again.

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The difference in the % votes in the two referendums kind of disprove that suggestion. Also, Braveheart? Really? That's the straight bananas of the Scottish independence debate, or "McGodwin's Law" as some call it.

No problem with democracy, if scotland wants it (independence), scotland will get it, i was simply pointing out that i honestly believe the SNP are opportunistic liars, they have one agenda, and it's not exactly in their interests that working scots be happy while they are in the UK, i would trust Scottish labour based if nothing else on the fact that a unionist party would obviously want to keep working scots happy.
 
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No problem with democracy, if scotland wants it (independence), scotland will get it, i was simply pointing out that i honestly believe the SNP are opportunistic liars, they have one agenda, and it's not exactly in their interests that working scots be happy while they are in the UK,

It was explicit in their manifesto that they'd very likely hold a referendum if the UK voted to leave the EU but Scotland hadn't. They were elected to power. I'm not sure why you're trying to twist it so that this is somehow undemocratic.

i would trust Scottish labour based if nothing else on the fact that a unionist party would obviously want to keep working scots happy.

Despite their staggering lack of leadership in the last independence campaign? Despite their inability to lift the countless constituencies they had for decades out of poverty? Despite the fact they took us to war based on a lie and started selling off the NHS in England. Despite the fact there is no sign of anything resembling leadership in the party across the country? Scotland's vote rarely changes the result at Westminster too much (check the records if you doubt me) so unless Labour perform a spectacular turn around within a year then any decent thinking left leaning person in England should tell the Scots to get out while they can and wish them well instead of demanding they stick around for the racist death spiral that is English politics right now.
 
No problem with democracy, if scotland wants it (independence), scotland will get it, i was simply pointing out that i honestly believe the SNP are opportunistic liars, they have one agenda, and it's not exactly in their interests that working scots be happy while they are in the UK, i would trust Scottish labour based if nothing else on the fact that a unionist party would obviously want to keep working scots happy.

Opportunistic = yes. Liars? Not so much in this context. They were elected saying they were going to do what they've done.

Admittedly, their "The British government has refused to negotiate" is a bit of a stretch, given that they asked for stuff the UK government couldn't possibly deliver and knew it. But at the same time, that's the game. If the Tories don't have the stones to turn around and tell the SNP that their demands are nonsense, why shouldn't they carry on?

Are you suggesting that the SNP have deliberately set out to sabotage working Scots in order to promote their ambition of independence?
 
It was explicit in their manifesto that they'd very likely hold a referendum if the UK voted to leave the EU but Scotland hadn't. They were elected to power. I'm not sure why you're trying to twist it so that this is somehow undemocratic.



Despite their staggering lack of leadership in the last independence campaign? Despite their inability to lift the countless constituencies they had for decades out of poverty? Despite the fact they took us to war based on a lie and started selling off the NHS in England. Despite the fact there is no sign of anything resembling leadership in the party across the country? Scotland's vote rarely changes the result at Westminster too much (check the records if you doubt me) so unless Labour perform a spectacular turn around within a year then any decent thinking left leaning person in England should tell the Scots to get out while they can and wish them well instead of demanding they stick around for the racist death spiral that is English politics right now.
Getting behind independence is the only thing that could save the Labour Party in Scotland, if it's not already too late.
 
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