General / Off-Topic The SNP is wrong. There has been no material change in circumstances.

[SeeZaa]

Which shouldn't be a problem, as Scotland voted in favour of remain and declared its will to stay in the EU in the European parliament.

Scotland is not in the position to appeal on an independent footing. Sturgeon can say what she likes, but that does not make it legally or constitutionally valid. Scotland IS a part of the UK, and it IS a part of the same UK, that has democratically voted for a Brexit. like or dislike does not come into it.

This isn't some game where the wealthy, or political get to shuffle the pieces about, because they don't like the rules.. it was a national vote, and while i'm loath to agree with a Tory, May is completely right, now is not the time to be playing politics, now is a time to pull together as a country and get on with it.. not create further frictions, add to the chaos, and weaken the UK further.

 

[FuzzySpider]

Scotland is not in the position to appeal on an independent footing. Sturgeon can say what she likes, but that does not make it legally or constitutionally valid. Scotland IS a part of the UK, and it IS a part of the same UK, that has democratically voted for a Brexit. like or dislike does not come into it.

Not if Scotland vote to leave the UK.

This isn't some game where the wealthy, or political get to shuffle the pieces about, because they don't like the rules.

I am not sure if that's satire. That's how the UK have done business for years.

it was a national vote, and while i'm loath to agree with a Tory, May is completely right, now is not the time to be playing politics, now is a time to pull together as a country and get on with it.. not create further frictions, add to the chaos, and weaken the UK further.

It was a national vote, based upon lies, which certain things were promised (customs union, single market etc). If you want to look to blame someone for weakening the UK blame the Theresa May government, who are pursuing the most extreme version of Brexit possible even though it was a knife edge result. There is not a popular mandate to do away with all European relations, and in doing this she is inevitably driving half of the country away from the position the government is taking.

Nicola Sturgeon, unlike Theresa May, really is following the "will of the people" - the people she represents voted pretty emphatically to retain ties to Europe.

 

[SeeZaa]

Laughable?

What's laughable is the notion that it is possible to be a modern nation enjoying the fruits of international cooperation yet not having any treaties and not working alongside other nations. The drive to leave the EU is, as someone put it....



Scotland has a choice:

1. UK, where it has no real say or voice in how things are done, and is entirely dependent upon a southern neighbour who is actively trying to sabotage its own economy in a misguided attempt to re-live the glories of a bygone era.

2. EU, where it will have more of a say, more autonomy, and will be aligned with the biggest and most prosperous community of free nations on the planet.

The choice is so clear I am wondering why there is a debate at all. And I am English.

http://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/12506.aspx

no powers.. really? the things that matter to a Scotsman like me, are dealt with at Holyrood, and that has been getting expanded upon since 2014. we voted on our independence a few years back, maybe you remember, and that had a much greater turnout than those who voted for, or against, a Brexit. Sturgeon has been running a campaign of hate since then, blaming London for the problems and issues that the SNP said they would fix, and have not.. Education, Health, Employment.. things that are clearly within the auspice of Holyrood.

 

[Lianachan]

Nicola Sturgeon, unlike Theresa May, really is following the "will of the people" - the people she represents voted pretty emphatically to retain ties to Europe.

Also, of course, a strong card played by the Vote No lot in our last independence referendum was to claim that voting No was the way to maintain our status as EU members...... That panned out really well. So, the Britain that people thought they were choosing by voting No does not exist - it's right that people should get to choose again, Scotland or this new Britain.

 

[SeeZaa]

Also, of course, a strong card played by the Vote No lot in our last independence referendum was to claim that voting No was the way to maintain our status as EU members...... That panned out really well. So, the Britain that people thought they were choosing by voting No does not exist - it's right that people should get to choose again, Scotland or this new Britain.

and yet still more of us voted to remain part of the UK in the last referendum.. funny that eh. guess we know what vote was more important to us, it also confirms that many Scots where comfortable with a decision either way for Brexit.. all in or all out.

 

[Becks]

Scotland is not in the position to appeal on an independent footing. Sturgeon can say what she likes, but that does not make it legally or constitutionally valid. Scotland IS a part of the UK, and it IS a part of the same UK, that has democratically voted for a Brexit. like or dislike does not come into it.

This isn't some game where the wealthy, or political get to shuffle the pieces about, because they don't like the rules.. it was a national vote, and while i'm loath to agree with a Tory, May is completely right, now is not the time to be playing politics, now is a time to pull together as a country and get on with it.. not create further frictions, add to the chaos, and weaken the UK further.

Irrelevant to the fact that Scotland voted strongly in favour to remain and that it is one of the main arguments for IndyRef2.

You can't simply decide something over someone and then complain if they're not ready to follow you. And unlike the title of this thread claims, the circumstances have changed.

It's also not necessary to create any further friction and chaos or to weaken the UK any further. It already does that for itself.

 

[FuzzySpider]

and yet still more of us voted to remain part of the UK in the last referendum.. funny that eh. guess we know what vote was more important to us, it also confirms that many Scots where comfortable with a decision either way for Brexit.. all in or all out.

Identical logic:

Way more people voted to go into Europe in 1970s - no further referendum should be considered valid.

 

[Talarin]

I've already said this, probably in this thread, but "you'd not stay in the EU, you'd have to apply!" is a very strange and pointless argument against Scottish independence anyway. It's being used as a tool to persuade people who value EU membership not to vote Yes, because immediate EU membership is not guaranteed. But, with a No vote - well, it's hard Brexit! How is that meant to persuade those people that they ought to be voting No?

Subtle difference, but rather than being a reason to not to vote "Yes" - isn't it pointing out the flaw in the given reasoning behind calling the referendum in the first place?

 

[Trinity Star]

Identical logic:

Way more people voted to go into Europe in 1970s - no further referendum should be considered valid.

For a trading block yes, for the EU as it is now?

 

[SeeZaa]

Irrelevant to the fact that Scotland voted strongly in favour to remain and that it is one of the main arguments for IndyRef2.

You can't simply decide something over someone and then complain if they're not ready to follow you. And unlike the title of this thread claims, the circumstances have changed.

It's also not necessary to create any further friction and chaos or to weaken the UK any further. It already does that for itself.

ok, so..

2014 indiref

independance: 1,617,989

united britain: 2,001,926

2016 brexit

Stay EU: 1,661,191

Leave EU: 1,018,322


the 2014 ref, was the single largest turnout of Scottish voters since the introduction of universal suffrage @ 84.6% of the total registered population.

move forward to the 2016 Brexit vote, the SNP up their numbers by ~60,000 in lieu of their EU for Indi2 argument, with only half the 2014 'stay as we are' voters, turning out to vote at all in the Brexit vote. what do you think the other half where thinking?

do you think they had changed their mind on Scottish independence? and if they had, would common sense not tell you they would have signed up to the SNP's EU for Indi2 push, and more would have turned out to vote as such?

isn't it likely that Scottish independence was just not something they considered the Brexit vote to be about?

and maybe, just maybe, they felt the most important decision, to them, had already been made in 2014, and they would just bide with whatever the rest of the UK, of which we are a part, decided?

 

[Gortron]

Irrelevant to the fact that Scotland voted strongly in favour to remain and that it is one of the main arguments for IndyRef2.

You can't simply decide something over someone and then complain if they're not ready to follow you. And unlike the title of this thread claims, the circumstances have changed.

It's also not necessary to create any further friction and chaos or to weaken the UK any further. It already does that for itself.

The thing is though Becks it is just opportunism. Sturgeon was always going to find a way to have another referendum and she is using EU membership has an excuse. It is perfect timing because everyone is still arguing with each other over Brexit and she will now gleefully moan that a Tory Westminster government is forcing Scotland to do something it didn’t vote for.
There are plenty of English counties (London even) that didn’t vote for Brexit but should they now hold a referendum on leaving the UK? The fact of the matter is Scotland will be leaving the EU with the UK no matter what happens so the purpose is to cause even more headaches for the UK government and stoke up more division. Preferably annoying as many English people in the process as possible (we know her game).
Scotland’s biggest trading partner is the UK itself. If it was really because of leaving the EU (more accurately the single market) then the sensible thing to do would be to wait until the negotiations with the EU are over and then hold a referendum then. If the outcome was ‘Yes’ then seek to apply while still in the UK and negotiating exit.

 

[FuzzySpider]

For a trading block yes, for the EU as it is now?

Same logic applies.

The Scottish voted to remain a part of the UK when it was a relatively prosperous and outward looking nation, yes. But for the UK as the xenophobic little anti-intellectualist insular nation trying to build an empire again?

The thing is though Becks it is just opportunism.

Brexit was also opportunism. It was mostly an attempt by Boris to jump the queue and have a go at ruling over the little people before Camerons pal Osborne had his turn. Boris wasn't happy, and campaigned against the EU. Well know this, and it is very apparent that Johnson had no desire to win that referendum.

The difference here is that as opportunistic as she might be Sturgeon does actually believe in indepedence and has a plan for it.

 

[Gortron]

Same logic applies.

The Scottish voted to remain a part of the UK when it was a relatively prosperous and outward looking nation, yes. But for the UK as the xenophobic little anti-intellectualist insular nation trying to build an empire again?



Brexit was also opportunism. It was mostly an attempt by Boris to jump the queue and have a go at ruling over the little people before Camerons pal Osborne had his turn. Boris wasn't happy, and campaigned against the EU. Well know this, and it is very apparent that Johnson had no desire to win that referendum.

The difference here is that as opportunistic as she might be Sturgeon does actually believe in indepedence and has a plan for it.

Brexit was about more than Boris Johnson and his ego. That is just silly.

I'm not saying she doesn't believe in it and if Scoland wants it then they should go for it but it isn't about the EU. That is glaringly obvious.

 

[Becks]

ok, so..

2014 indiref

independance: 1,617,989

united britain: 2,001,926

2016 brexit

Stay EU: 1,661,191

Leave EU: 1,018,322


the 2014 ref, was the single largest turnout of Scottish voters since the introduction of universal suffrage @ 84.6% of the total registered population.

move forward to the 2016 Brexit vote, the SNP up their numbers by ~60,000 in lieu of their EU for Indi2 argument, with only half the 2014 'stay as we are' voters, turning out to vote at all in the Brexit vote. what do you think the other half where thinking?

do you think they had changed their mind on Scottish independence? and if they had, would common sense not tell you they would have signed up to the SNP's EU for Indi2 push, and more would have turned out to vote as such?

isn't it likely that Scottish independence was just not something they considered the Brexit vote to be about?

or maybe, just maybe, they felt the most important decision, to them, had already been made in 2014, and they would just bide with whatever the rest of the UK, of which we are a part, decided?

You draw a correllation between the Independence voters and the Remain voters? Oo

On what basis? Because the SNP campaigned for it?

The argument for Brexit being about scottish independence is utter and you know that. Scottish independence was never about the EU.

Yeah, maybe many of them felt like the decision they made in 2014 was correct with the circumstances around that time. Now the circumstances have changed and the only way to get the peoples opinion on this is to ask them.

If you're so sure that Scotland will decline independence again, why not just go ahead with the referendum and watch the SNP getting slapped down? Or are you actually not to sure about the Scots declining it?

- - - Updated - - -

The thing is though Becks it is just opportunism. Sturgeon was always going to find a way to have another referendum and she is using EU membership has an excuse. It is perfect timing because everyone is still arguing with each other over Brexit and she will now gleefully moan that a Tory Westminster government is forcing Scotland to do something it didn’t vote for.
There are plenty of English counties (London even) that didn’t vote for Brexit but should they now hold a referendum on leaving the UK? The fact of the matter is Scotland will be leaving the EU with the UK no matter what happens so the purpose is to cause even more headaches for the UK government and stoke up more division. Preferably annoying as many English people in the process as possible (we know her game).
Scotland’s biggest trading partner is the UK itself. If it was really because of leaving the EU (more accurately the single market) then the sensible thing to do would be to wait until the negotiations with the EU are over and then hold a referendum then. If the outcome was ‘Yes’ then seek to apply while still in the UK and negotiating exit.

Well, London indepedence came up iirc, even if it couldn't be taken seriously at any point.

As I said above, I doubt that Scotland can achieve indepedence while the Brexit is negotiated. The results of the Brexit negotiations will surely have an effect then and if the Scots like it, they can still vote No.

- - - Updated - - -

Brexit was about more than Boris Johnson and his ego. That is just silly.

I'm not saying she doesn't believe in it and if Scoland wants it then they should go for it but it isn't about the EU. That is glaringly obvious.

The EU is an aspect of scottish indepedence as it was during the Indyref in 2014. What was the argument of the UK back then? We won't let you join the EU if you decide to leave?

 

[Gortron]

You draw a correllation between the Independence voters and the Remain voters? Oo

On what basis? Because the SNP campaigned for it?

The argument for Brexit being about scottish independence is utter and you know that. Scottish independence was never about the EU.

Yeah, maybe many of them felt like the decision they made in 2014 was correct with the circumstances around that time. Now the circumstances have changed and the only way to get the peoples opinion on this is to ask them.

If you're so sure that Scotland will decline independence again, why not just go ahead with the referendum and watch the SNP getting slapped down? Or are you actually not to sure about the Scots declining it?

- - - Updated - - -



Well, London indepedence came up iirc, even if it couldn't be taken seriously at any point.

As I said above, I doubt that Scotland can achieve indepedence while the Brexit is negotiated. The results of the Brexit negotiations will surely have an effect then and if the Scots like it, they can still vote No.

- - - Updated - - -



The EU is an aspect of scottish indepedence as it was during the Indyref in 2014. What was the argument of the UK back then? We won't let you join the EU if you decide to leave?

No, it was if you leave the UK you will have to apply to join it, there won't be automatic entry. So the truth. I don't recall the government saying it would veto it. I should hope they didn't.

 

[FuzzySpider]

Brexit was about more than Boris Johnson and his ego. That is just silly.

Yes, it was about Cameron and his ego.

The referendum wasn't called to give people a say, it was a bone thrown to the Eurosceptic far-right elements of his party who were threatening to topple him. He had no majority and was relying on Lib Dem support when he made the referendum promise, fully expecting to not have to carry it through because the very Euro-friendly Lib Dems would veto it, if he was still in coalition.

Then the British people returned him to power with a majority, and he found himself backed into a corner.

Without the support of Johnson it is unlikely the referendum would have been won by the leavers, given the knife edge support and the fact that Johnson was, at the time, the most popular politician in Britain.

Johnson in fact met with Cameron, and it was after that meeting suddenly became a leaver.

The precise words of what was said in that meeting will likely never been known. The damage inflicted on the country as a result is there for all objective eyes to see. Nevertheless, the topic of that meeting is one that everyone knows about.

I know that, for you and most people who voted, it was not about misplaced ambition. But for those who now have even more control over your destiny with even less oversight to stop them, it very much was.

It is against this backdrop Sturgeon sees both the perilous future of the UK and an opportunity for Scotland. What is going on now is chaos. As negotiations go on and as Brexit becomes very clearly a mistake, a mistake that Theresa May will be too stubborn to reverse, Scotland will be desperate to leave. This is a golden opportunity for the SNP.

So opportunistic? Absolutely!

But she is doing what is right for Scotland. Unlike Boris Cameron, she is acting in the the interests of the people of Scotland.

 

[FuzzySpider]

No, it was if you leave the UK you will have to apply to join it, there won't be automatic entry. So the truth. I don't recall the government saying it would veto it. I should hope they didn't.

Scotland doesn't need to join the EU. It could very quickly sign up to the EFTA a-la Norway, even taking up a leadership or partner role in a "Northern arc of prosperity" with Iceland and the Scandinavian countries. A year of this political chaos and perhaps even May caving in to the demands of Trump and Scotland is gone.

 

[LeoBartlet]

Scotland doesn't need to join the EU. It could very quickly sign up to the EFTA a-la Norway, even taking up a leadership or partner role in a "Northern arc of prosperity" with Iceland and the Scandinavian countries. A year of this political chaos and perhaps even May caving in to the demands of Trump and Scotland is gone.

Wee Jimmy is asking for another referendum based on the fact that the UK as a whole voted to leave the EU now people are saying that perhaps Scotland will leave anyway or not bother reapplying.

It almost looks like the nats are using the EU as an excuse for another neverendum.

I also find it amusing that wee Jimmy and Aly said that the 45% who voted for independence cant be ignored but thats exactly what she's doing to the 38% who voted to leave the EU.

 

[Gortron]

Yes, it was about Cameron and his ego.

The referendum wasn't called to give people a say, it was a bone thrown to the Eurosceptic far-right elements of his party who were threatening to topple him. He had no majority and was relying on Lib Dem support when he made the referendum promise, fully expecting to not have to carry it through because the very Euro-friendly Lib Dems would veto it, if he was still in coalition.

Then the British people returned him to power with a majority, and he found himself backed into a corner.

Without the support of Johnson it is unlikely the referendum would have been won by the leavers, given the knife edge support and the fact that Johnson was, at the time, the most popular politician in Britain.

Johnson in fact met with Cameron, and it was after that meeting suddenly became a leaver.

The precise words of what was said in that meeting will likely never been known. The damage inflicted on the country as a result is there for all objective eyes to see. Nevertheless, the topic of that meeting is one that everyone knows about.

I know that, for you and most people who voted, it was not about misplaced ambition. But for those who now have even more control over your destiny with even less oversight to stop them, it very much was.

It is against this backdrop Sturgeon sees both the perilous future of the UK and an opportunity for Scotland. What is going on now is chaos. As negotiations go on and as Brexit becomes very clearly a mistake, a mistake that Theresa May will be too stubborn to reverse, Scotland will be desperate to leave. This is a golden opportunity for the SNP.

So opportunistic? Absolutely!

But she is doing what is right for Scotland. Unlike Boris Cameron, she is acting in the the interests of the people of Scotland.

It wasn't about Cameron and his ego either. That is also silly. Trying to tame the Eurosceptics was part of it yes. If it was about anyone person (which it wasn't) then it is Farage.

I'm glad we can both agree is opportunistic. Doing this right now is not right for anyone, including Scotland; it just has the best chance of succeeding. Still what will be will be.

- - - Updated - - -

Scotland doesn't need to join the EU. It could very quickly sign up to the EFTA a-la Norway, even taking up a leadership or partner role in a "Northern arc of prosperity" with Iceland and the Scandinavian countries. A year of this political chaos and perhaps even May caving in to the demands of Trump and Scotland is gone.

That wasn't what the question was.

 

[Becks]

No, it was if you leave the UK you will have to apply to join it, there won't be automatic entry. So the truth. I don't recall the government saying it would veto it. I should hope they didn't.

I looked it up and it seems that I was mistaken. The UK government did indeed not do that.

Nonetheless, it got the EU to help it in this issue by introducing the Barroso doctrine.