Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[Robert Maynard]

Removing penalties on death makes dying or killing people meaningless.

The best way to do it is, rebalance the crime system to make it so that murderers and pirates are COMMITTED to being just that.

Right now i can log on, go to Eravate and blast 50 people and then in 2 hours be doing whatever with no penalty. That's why there is so many murderers and pirates. You make commitment or some sort of annoyance - all the quick gankers will dissapear and only the RP and diehard pirates will remain.

If the penalty was only reduced if the player attacked (i.e. did not attack first) and destroyed was clean then the benefit would be targeted towards those who do not initiate combat.

I would agree that the crime system needs tweaking - there was mention of Major Faction bounties for players who became wanted by a number of Minor Factions allied to a Major Faction - coupled with a more robust police response (in appropriate systems), this could go some way to making crime a way of life not just something where the consequences can effectively be ignored.

 

[Sylveria]

Removing penalties on death makes dying or killing people meaningless.

The best way to do it is, rebalance the crime system to make it so that murderers and pirates are COMMITTED to being just that.

Right now i can log on, go to Eravate and blast 50 people and then in 2 hours be doing whatever with no penalty. That's why there is so many murderers and pirates. You make commitment or some sort of annoyance - all the quick gankers will dissapear and only the RP and diehard pirates will remain.

Exactly! Crime/bounty system needs revision- consequences for actions need to MEAN something, not just some simple bounty payoff you can do at the next station.

+1 repped.

 

[Daffan]

Exactly this.

As I've said before- If there's a mass exodus of players from Open because there's not as much PvP then it's a pretty good sign that's not what players are interested in.

Forcing people into a certain playstyle isn't going to change their minds- if anything it's going to make them quit playing, and although Frontier may have gotten their initial investment in advance, it sure won't do much for their residual income, or marketing the game moving forward.

Either way, blaming Solo or PvE focused players for the problems in Open (or PvP) isn't going to resolve the issue- it's better to focus your energy where it *should* be directed- and that's toward who implemented the system in the first place.

For example, I'm not "blaming" Open players for the fact there's no "Open PvE" mode to choose from and asking everyone to be pooled into it from the current Open mode, I'm asking that it be added as a choice instead.

People who like open literally log into solo just to be able to reset instances, farm CZ's and RES by themselves and trade with no hassle. There is a part that has nothign to do with not-interested in PVP and that's called path of least resistance, where people will do even the most boring things to get the most efficiency.

Exactly! Crime/bounty system needs revision- consequences for actions need to MEAN something, not just some simple bounty payoff you can do at the next station.

+1 repped.

Thankyou, i may seem like a die-hard open fanatic but i truely believe if the crime system was revamped many people would come back to open to experience more emergent gameplay....

I understand 100% that many people are chased of because of the unfair PvP.... felucca in UO had the same problem.... in fact many games had the same problem.

I really like PVP, but i hate ganking traders and seeing newbs get roasted in Eravate all the time on streams - that's not meaningful pvp.... PowerPlay pvp is more like it.

 

[Robert Maynard]

People who like open literally log into solo just to be able to reset instances, farm CZ's and RES by themselves and trade with no hassle. There is a part that has nothign to do with not-interested in PVP and that's called path of least resistance, where people will do even the most boring things to get the most efficiency.

Then it's more about the approach that some people themselves take to the game rather than the modes themselves....

 

[ianw]

Thankyou, i may seem like a die-hard open fanatic but i truely believe if the crime system was revamped many people would come back to open to experience more emergent gameplay....

I understand 100% that many people are chased of because of the unfair PvP.... felucca in UO had the same problem.... in fact many games had the same problem.

I really like PVP, but i hate ganking traders and seeing newbs get roasted in Eravate all the time on streams - that's not meaningful pvp.... PowerPlay pvp is more like it.

A lot of people would like to see a proper crime and punishment system - as you say FD could almost eradicate the "just because" destruction - but that meets with resistance from the players that think it's fine to impose themselves on unwilling victims.

They're the ones that cause most of the problems.

 

[Sylveria]

People who like open literally log into solo just to be able to reset instances, farm CZ's and RES by themselves and trade with no hassle. There is a part that has nothign to do with not-interested in PVP and that's called path of least resistance, where people will do even the most boring things to get the most efficiency.




Thankyou, i may seem like a die-hard open fanatic but i truely believe if the crime system was revamped many people would come back to open to experience more emergent gameplay....

I understand 100% that many people are chased of because of the unfair PvP.... felucca in UO had the same problem.... in fact many games had the same problem.

I really like PVP, but i hate ganking traders and seeing newbs get roasted in Eravate all the time on streams - that's not meaningful pvp.... PowerPlay pvp is more like it.

I personally have nothing "against" PvP- quite the opposite, I've been playing PvP mode games for a loooooong time (did 8x8's constantly in DAoC years ago and got burned out on it). I'm all for people suggesting enhancements to improve, etc.

What I don't agree with is those who blame everyone else for the mistakes they make, or try to shift responsibility- and I'll fight that tooth and nail. I prefer a PvE environment in this game- but if I wish to engage in PvP I know it's available.

I get that Open players are unhappy with the implemented mechanics- but guess what? Solo and PvE focused players are, too. There's tons that think the game is great just the way it is, and there's also tons who don't think so.

People need to stop with the finger pointing and get a grip- stop blaming everyone else and actually start making suggestions that can possibly be worked with and maybe, just maybe FD will start implementing some solutions.

The "modes" aren't the issue here- it's player actions. And the player actions are a result of the implementation- period.

 

[Jockey79]

It's clearly not a pve game either

I'm glad I'd finished my cup of tea when I read that.
Best comment I've seen yet on these boards.

Robert answered this, so I'm not going to repeat what he said.

I'm guessing a few others are going to keep asking.

The key word there, "few" - as in, not many.
Most certainly not enough to counter the 25,681 kickstarter backers or the 500,000+ sales since then.

 

[ianw]

I personally have nothing "against" PvP- quite the opposite, I've been playing PvP mode games for a loooooong time (did 8x8's constantly in DAoC years ago and got burned out on it). I'm all for people suggesting enhancements to improve, etc.

What I don't agree with is those who blame everyone else for the mistakes they make, or try to shift responsibility- and I'll fight that tooth and nail. I prefer a PvE environment in this game- but if I wish to engage in PvP I know it's available.

I get that Open players are unhappy with the implemented mechanics- but guess what? Solo and PvE focused players are, too. There's tons that think the game is great just the way it is, and there's also tons who don't think so.

People need to stop with the finger pointing and get a grip- stop blaming everyone else and actually start making suggestions that can possibly be worked with and maybe, just maybe FD will start implementing some solutions.

The "modes" aren't the issue here- it's player actions. And the player actions are a result of the implementation- period.

The brutal truth for PVPers is that PVE players don't actually need other players - PVPers on the other hand other hand do need them.

It really ought to be PVPers going cap in hand trying to woo players to play victim for them - but ironically it's the PVEers that go down the co-operation route when they don't even need to - whilst the PVPers just go for flat out blunt coercion.

And then they wonder why they get a poor reception..

 

[Mouse]

Originally Posted by Mouse
Funny I have that same feeling about mindlessness of PVP, PVE is actually vibrant to me.

I'm sure you do, considering AI haven't become sentinent yet or unscripted. Unless i missed something about Elite's emergent AI.

I would love for you to explain this comment.. maybe you misread, or are trying to do a veiled insult or something.. how does my feeling that PVP is mindless and PVE is vibrant to me (not to everyone).. equate to your comment? I'm assuming that you misread and thought I said the mindlessness of PVE (which is not true) or are you trying to insinuate something about me since I find PVE vibrant and the AI isn't sentient or unscripted.. please clarify..


I think the argument is that the game mechanics are bleh in that regard. it rewards scripted grinding and not emergent gameplay.

game mechanics being "bleh" to some does not nor ever has equated to "meta" and if you had bothered to read responses to you before.. Emergent gameplay does not equate PVP.. PVE can have it too.. solo players can have it too.

- - - Updated - - -

I personally have nothing "against" PvP- quite the opposite, I've been playing PvP mode games for a loooooong time (did 8x8's constantly in DAoC years ago and got burned out on it). I'm all for people suggesting enhancements to improve, etc.

What I don't agree with is those who blame everyone else for the mistakes they make, or try to shift responsibility- and I'll fight that tooth and nail. I prefer a PvE environment in this game- but if I wish to engage in PvP I know it's available.

I get that Open players are unhappy with the implemented mechanics- but guess what? Solo and PvE focused players are, too. There's tons that think the game is great just the way it is, and there's also tons who don't think so.

People need to stop with the finger pointing and get a grip- stop blaming everyone else and actually start making suggestions that can possibly be worked with and maybe, just maybe FD will start implementing some solutions.

The "modes" aren't the issue here- it's player actions. And the player actions are a result of the implementation- period.

outta rep.. +5 lbs Cubeo Razorback Bacon

 

[Sylveria]

The brutal truth for PVPers is that PVE players don't actually need other players - PVPers on the other hand other hand do need them.

It really ought to be PVPers going cap in hand trying to woo players to play victim for them - but ironically it's the PVEers that go down the co-operation route when they don't even need to - whilst the PVPers just go for flat out blunt coercion.

And then they wonder why they get a poor reception..

There's actually a lot of truth in this, too. It's the "you'll catch more flies with honey than you will vinegar" adage.

If you walk into a room boisterously shouting you'll likely not get a positive response, after all.

 

[Daffan]

The brutal truth for PVPers is that PVE players don't actually need other players - PVPers on the other hand other hand do need them.

It really ought to be PVPers going cap in hand trying to woo players to play victim for them - but ironically it's the PVEers that go down the co-operation route when they don't even need to - whilst the PVPers just go for flat out blunt coercion.

And then they wonder why they get a poor reception..

This is true, but for a lot of people the risk and reward feeling adds a lot of depth to the game.

it's not just about pirating or killing traders, but more a symbiotic immersive and emergent gameplay experience... otherwise it really does feel more lifeless and like a grind... especially when everything you do feels undermined - it's a "why bother" response

 

[Mouse]

This is true, but for a lot of people the risk and reward feeling adds a lot of depth to the game.

it's not just about pirating or killing traders, but more a symbiotic immersive and emergent gameplay experience... otherwise it really does feel more lifeless and like a grind... especially when everything you do feels undermined - it's a "why bother" response

And for a lot, I hazard to say Most people playing the game, the risk and rewards feeling is accomplished in solo or group and they enjoy their immersive and emergent game play experience WITHOUT PVP or dealing with a lot of others...

 

[Sylveria]

This is true, but for a lot of people the risk and reward feeling adds a lot of depth to the game.

it's not just about pirating or killing traders, but more a symbiotic immersive and emergent gameplay experience... otherwise it really does feel more lifeless and like a grind... especially when everything you do feels undermined - it's a "why bother" response

Yes, but the implementation of PP was never promised exclusively for PvP or Open... it was announced from the very beginning to affect the universe in all modes.

Had it been promised exclusively - I would see the position a little differently.

 

[fademist]

Actually, yes it is right PvP has "less impact".

This is not a PvP game, it does not have PvP at its core, it does not revolve around PvP, it does not do a thing to push PvP into peoples faces (quite the opposite).
This is a game that allows CONSENSUAL PvP in which both parties find "meaning".

The game works from a PvE standpoint, proven by the updates, blogs and everything else the Devs do (As Roybe keeps saying, pushing little beans about). They even made a PvP arena for PvPers to go and play in... that is away from the main stories and galaxy politics. I mean, come on - they pitch a tent in the garden and shoved you (PvPers, not you personally) out of the house - is that not a big enough hint?

Once PvE piracy is fixed there will be no need for any time of PvP at all. Might as well just stop all player to player damage and leave PvP in the arena.

Oh, wait... where have I heard that before ........

argh bad jockey u broke again my rep button us always

 

[ianw]

This is true, but for a lot of people the risk and reward feeling adds a lot of depth to the game.

it's not just about pirating or killing traders, but more a symbiotic immersive and emergent gameplay experience... otherwise it really does feel more lifeless and like a grind... especially when everything you do feels undermined - it's a "why bother" response

I'm with you on the crime system thing.

But when you're playing a game that's sold what 800,000.00 copies - you can only control your own game experience - everything else it out of your hands - how can you not feel undermined as an individual player?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by symbiotic immersion - it sounds great though.

 

[Roybe]

Actually, yes it is right PvP has "less impact".

This is not a PvP game, it does not have PvP at its core, it does not revolve around PvP, it does not do a thing to push PvP into peoples faces (quite the opposite).
This is a game that allows CONSENSUAL PvP in which both parties find "meaning".

The game works from a PvE standpoint, proven by the updates, blogs and everything else the Devs do (As Roybe keeps saying, pushing little beans about). They even made a PvP arena for PvPers to go and play in... that is away from the main stories and galaxy politics. I mean, come on - they pitch a tent in the garden and shoved you (PvPers, not you personally) out of the house - is that not a big enough hint?

Once PvE piracy is fixed there will be no need for any time of PvP at all. Might as well just stop all player to player damage and leave PvP in the arena.

Oh, wait... where have I heard that before ........

PVP in CQC..PVE In Open....hmm not sure?

- - - Updated - - -

I'm with you on the crime system thing.

But when you're playing a game that's sold what 800,000.00 copies - you can only control your own game experience - everything else it out of your hands - how can you not feel undermined as an individual player?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by symbiotic immersion - it sounds great though.

PVP that happens when you least expect it! Of course...this brings up the consent issue...but hey...who's looking to argue about that? ;P

 

[Daffan]

And for a lot, I hazard to say Most people playing the game, the risk and rewards feeling is accomplished in solo or group and they enjoy their immersive and emergent game play experience WITHOUT PVP or dealing with a lot of others...

that's why i never suggested killing solo/group or their interaction with the galaxy. but a different idea entirely.

I'm with you on the crime system thing.

But when you're playing a game that's sold what 800,000.00 copies - you can only control your own game experience - everything else it out of your hands - how can you not feel undermined as an individual player?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by symbiotic immersion - it sounds great though.

Hmmm, just like - you are a pilot in space, and you sign up for your faction... might patrol the area and kill some dudes... but it feels kind of weak knowing there is people in solo (yes i know instancing blah blah)

symbiotic as in... bounty hunters only exist because pirates exist... and so forth. If you were a security guard in real life, and people were stealing from the warehouse but you couldn't do anything haha.

Yes, but the implementation of PP was never promised exclusively for PvP or Open... it was announced from the very beginning to affect the universe in all modes.

Had it been promised exclusively - I would see the position a little differently.

Sure, that's great - I'm just saying it makes it feel more dull and grind like.

 

[ianw]

PVP in CQC..PVE In Open....hmm not sure?

- - - Updated - - -



PVP that happens when you least expect it! Of course...this brings up the consent issue...but hey...who's looking to argue about that? ;P

Riiiiight - you mean consenting non consent - or non consenting non consent?

 

[Roybe]

Riiiiight - you mean consenting non consent - or non consenting non consent?

Or differing ideas on what logging into a mode REALLY means!

 

[ianw]

Or differing ideas on what logging into a mode REALLY means!

Always comes back to the same thing doesn't it? One lot of players think it's okay to impose on others whether they like it or not and then try and justify it by making out that everyone has given their consent when they know full well haven't.

All you've got is this crud about what logging into a mode "really means".

You know people that are really bothered by it will just play in Mobius and you wouldn't see them - if there was proper PVE login you wouldn't see them either so what does it matter to you?

Why does the price for them wanting to meet like minded random PVE players in open have to be that they subject themselves to non consensual PVP - why can't you just play your way and let them play theirs?

Forget about what you think FD intend - or "because rules" - I'm asking you - why you think that's okay?