Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[ianw]

I'm afraid I wasn't clear. You are right in saying there are three legitimate (by design) game modes. The problem is in balancing them. PowerPlay has made Open significantly more dangerous than Solo for any aligned player. As a result I have been forced against my instincts to go Solo after many months of Open flying. As this is mainly a PowerPlay problem I would suggest that a re-balancing solution could be implemented within the PowerPlay reward structure.

I think many people would see that as a Powerplay issue rather than a game wide mode issue.

And FD is now apparently considering a flag where you can switch notice of your allegiance on/off.

Frankly the idea that you can just look at an independent ship - as opposed to a military/police ship - and see it's allegiance is stupid - it's one of the things that first put me off PP.

 

[Jesse Blue]

You're right; the MultiQuote button appears to be borky for me. The real poster there is Nonya. Sorry about that. Credit given.





You have obviously not taken time to read much in this thread. I have several times called PowerPlay *brilliant* in this megathread. I don't think FD need change it at all. Most of the clamor for changing it is coming from the vociferous minority who are scared someone is doing something "behind their back" and keep ignoring the point that it doesn't work with their chosen confrontational playstyle.




What does this mean? I backed SC also. Has nothing to do with this topic.




I'm sorry my attempts to make my points germane by bolding the relevant text seem useless. There's no argument here; it is open sniping.




Just to assure you that I have indeed read your past posts in light of the Multiquote borkage first mentioned in your post #306 in order to correct the attributions as you requested:

Post #59, which calls for special rewards for open players.

Post #61, which also calls for special rewards for open players.

Post #70, in which you take a swipe at Asp regarding hardware issues.

Post #83, which again calls for special rewards for open players. It's also the start of the
'doctors should get more money for treating people in a war zone' thing...

Post #90, "the problem comes because the players that chose Open don't feel adequately rewarded by their decision." More special rewards talk and the strange "rewards like I say don't mean rewards like you say" statements

Post #92, which yet again calls for extra rewards for open players.

Post #96, where you take a gratuitous swipe at Robert. Also, moar special rewards for open players.

Post #102,where you express your fear of solo "ghosts" robbing you.

Post #111,where you bring up pirates as a need for more special rewards for open players.

Post #115, where you insist that special treatment is fair treatment because it has more risks (because of open players) in a mode you freely chose.

Post #121, in which you consider 'extra insurance' as acceptable.

Post #136, where you seem to be arguing that people left open because 'they thought it was riskless but it wasn't". You also start to get your arguments quite fuddled. And there's a gratuitous swipe at the Fuel Rats.


Now those above posts were adequately responded to by myself and others. It was the next two posts I was responding to:


Post #248, which is what my lengthy Post #279 response was for but got borked by Multiquote.

Post #306, which notified me of the error in the Quote sections from posts that weren't yours and which I responded to in Post #312.

Straight now?

Yes, pretty nice summary.... And with the expected amount of bias, no less. If there had been even a bit less than the expected amount, I'd have even +rep you, for your hard work.
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OK, you don't seem to understand so we shall try it this way. You look at the mountian and decide to climb it for that 5k. Now you chose how you climb it. You could climb when no one else is around, or with friends, or when others are attempting to climb it, some will be helpful, some will try and cut your rope. No matter how you do it, the company is offering the 5k, but the CHOICE... there is that word you keep ignoring.. the CHOICE on HOW you climb the mountian is yours.

Missed this one yesterday... I do not ignore the word 'choice', in fact I have it very present in all my posts. Precisely one of the things I'm trying to argue is that by their decisions, FD made (is making) Solo a BETTER choice than Open.... When according to everyone, all choices should be equal and equivalent.
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That's what the mountain example was for. To illustrate that when aiming for the same rewards (The 5k bucks, and not just personal fulfillment as our brave forumite climber), you have absolutely no reason to choose to do it unprotected, or with people that could cut your ropes. (Though to be even an even more fair comparison, we could ask to our climber if given the choice to climb the mountain between being alone or being behind some suspicious strangers he doesn't know anything about, what of those choices he would take... even doing it only for his personal fulfillment...)
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I have yet to see a post in the line of:
"I have been playing in open for some time... and absolutely nothing bad happened to me beyond the ordinary... no player attacks... no profit loss... But one morning, I realized that I was not happy in open, and so, I changed to solo and now I'm a much more happy and self-fulfilled person".
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Sure, I will wait a for post like that, and then I'll start to believe that people change game mode only for his personal self-fulfillment. In the meantime, I can show you a myriad of posts in the line of:
"I was in open but someone destroyed my ship and I changed to solo, never to return to open"
"I never logged in open because I fear who I'll meet there"... etc etc... you know the song.
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Oh, but let's not forget that there is absolutely no additional risk in Open... That's a falacy, of course.

 

[stripealipe]

I can see that you've not experienced the relentless battle-hardened wing hunting I'm talking about.

Oh no, quite the opposite. I've been there and done that quite a few times back in the day before learning the techniques to keep myself safe in such situations around 90% of the time and for it not to be too much of a bother. On a few of those occasions i've also been able to open some kind of dialogue and call out a plea for mercy and have been left alone.

I certainly cannot remember the last time i was able to open dialogue with an NPC when my drives had been shot out and i was drifting in space. I was simply killed.
That will happen each and every time with an NPC btw... no come back whatsoever, just indiscriminate killing.

 

[Nick S]

Oh no, quite the opposite. I've been there and done that quite a few times back in the day before learning the techniques to keep myself safe in such situations around 90% of the time and for it not to be too much of a bother. On a few of those occasions i've also been able to open some kind of dialogue and call out a plea for mercy and have been left alone.

I certainly cannot remember the last time i was able to open dialogue with an NPC when my drives had been shot out and i was drifting in space. I was simply killed.
That will happen each and every time with an NPC btw... no come back whatsoever, just indiscriminate killing.

Good to hear that escape is possible - what were you flying? A clipper or cobra? Nothing else is really practical for multiple interdictions. And these are hardly trading ships.

 

[stripealipe]

Good to hear that escape is possible - what were you flying? A clipper or cobra? Nothing else is really practical for multiple interdictions. And these are hardly trading ships.

No, most ships upwards from a Sidewinder would have a fighting chance of getting away tbh.
For one, knowing that if you're interdicted, just treat it like you would an NPC. They're probably not gonna wanna chat?! ...

Boost, quickly lock in another nearby system and be ready to high wake once your drive has cooled. You'll be making distance and i very much doubt his friends will have joined the party immediately due to the way the new wing beacon mechanics work. High wake out of there, no mass lock to worry about, and then maybe think about leaving that system alone for a while?
Else, hopping across it, low waking when anyone gets too close in SC can work too if you really need to get to where you were going.

Most CMDRs won't bother following you if you high wake. NPCs on the other hand now do on occasion and are indeed more of a pain than most humans nowadays.

 

[Mohrgan]

Missed this one yesterday... I do not ignore the word choice, in fact I have it very present in all my posts. Precisely one of the things I'm trying to argue is that by their decisions, FD made (is making) Solo a BETTER choice than Open.... When according to everyone, all choices should be equal and equivalent.
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That's what the mountain example was for. To illustrate that when aiming for the same rewards (The 5k bucks, and not just personal fulfillment as our brave forumite climber), you have absolutely no reason to choose to do it unprotected, or with people that could cut your ropes. (Though to be even an even more fair comparison, we could ask to our climber if given the choice to climb the mountain between being alone or being behind some suspicious strangers he doesn't know anything about, what of those choices he would take... even doing it only for his personal fulfillment...)
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I have yet to see a post in the line of:
"I have been playing in open for some time... and absolutely nothing bad happened to me beyond the ordinary... no player attacks... no profit loss... But one morning, I realized that I was not happy in open, and so, I changed to solo and now I'm a much more happy and self-fulfilled person".
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Sure, I will wait a for post like that, and then I'll start to believe that people play the game in a given mode only for his personal self-fulfillment. In the meantime, I can show you a myriad of posts in the line of:
"I was in open but someone destroyed my ship and I changed to solo, never to return to open"
"I never logged in open because I fear who I'll meet there"... etc etc... you know the song.
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Oh, but let's not forget that there is absolutely no additional risk in Open... That's a falacy, of course.

Solo may be a better choice if your only goal is to grind. I don;t argue that the modes should be equal end equivalent, I say that the field is leveled because everyone has equal and equivalent access to all of the modes. If you are looking for some PvP action, Open is surly the way to go. If you want to concentrate on a PvE goal, open may be better suited. That you feel that open is your preferred mode, then you have to accept the results of that choice.

There is a parade of "where is everyone", "where can I find a fight", "we need to incentivize open" threads. I dare say just as many "I got ganked, so I'm going to solo" threads. I've seen open referred to as a "wasteland', 'ghost town', and 'deserted' by others frequently, so I think you may have to readjust your view there.

In this thread alone, there are a number of players that have said they just plain prefer solo. Because of connections, disabilities, shyness, or just a quiet place to wind down from the trials of everyday life. There is even a large group of players that expected to get a completely offline version of Elite, but were offered SOlo as a reasonable substitution. Players may just prefer to control the people who they interact with. That's all we're talking about here. Just a choice of whom we spend our game time with.

You must have skipped the myriad posts in this very thread, and/or it's cousins, expressing that very sentiment. Read back through the Threadnaught and you just may change your mind. The 'I'm going to solo' threads aren't from established players who fear an insurance claim. It's from new players being preyed upon by the bullies looking for an easy kill. It's not hard to understand their motivation. Leaving the modes available to all even gives those guys a later chance, when they have their 'space legs', for some revenge. When I want to mix it up with other commanders I have to jump dozens of times to find anyone up for a fight.

What extra risk there may be in open is totally selective. You can, as evidenced by many posts, effectively play 'solo' in open if you avoid the hot spots. SPace is vast and many times this thread has been given advice on how to 'stay safe' in open, just to encourage participation. The fact that the games instancing rules can 'hide' you from potential adversaries for any of the uncountable reasons within the matchmaking code, brings the risks in open and solo much closer together. Finally, with the 'submit, boost, jump' mechanic firmly in place, just about anyone can avoid combat more often than not. Any extra risk in open seems so minimal, to an experienced player, that it hardly deserves a reward.

 

[PhazonAran]

When I want to mix it up with other commanders I have to jump dozens of times to find anyone up for a fight.

May I ask you you what is your opinion about CQC ?

 

[Space Guru]

if you want not to have that issue you can join Mobius if you'd like, and I am sorry that this happend to you. We try to explain it to them but it doesn't sink in.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=38362&page=186&p=2570787#post2570787

Already joined to Mobius. I'm a big fan and I'm definitely going back to it.

 

[Mohrgan]

May I ask you you what is your opinion about CQC ?

I think CQC will be a fun addition to the game. It will keep me from having to travel so much just to get some combat. I am not a great pilot. I'm mostly a duffer, so not loosing my credits makes it a much more attractive diversion.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

May I ask you you what is your opinion about CQC ?

not aimed at me, but I have 2p to spend on this

I think CQC is a good idea in principle, however imo I think there should be support for private group matches as well as solo support for the solo mode against AI.

I certainly think any "official" competitions which come about should be in open however as well as a possible league table visible at each CQC venue, again only people in open get put on it (a bit like the local top bounties, AFAIK these are only from players in open - tho i may stand to be corrected on that).

I also think it is nuts that players at Sag A will be able to play it and think FD are missing a trick. I think a number of systems should be made permit systems which unlock as your progress through CQC career, i think each arena should exist in the actual galaxy and us have to travel to it, BUT I think there should be unranked CQC which does not affect our main CMDR and this could be linked from the practice missions menu and be available to everyone everywhere to play for fun outside of the game, with no assets earned going to your account.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

Recent updates from Open:
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"Open is really hard, I deserve greater reward"
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"Open is really annoying, I got shot to pieces by 4 CMDRs who were supposed to be my allies in PP, I don't enjoy this so I will use my option to switch to a more enjoyable mode for me"
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"It is easy to avoid being ganked by CMDR in Open, even in if you are flying a sidewinder, if you know how to play the game"
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"NPC are just as hard in Solo as they are in Open, perhaps even harder than CMDR due to their high wake persistence"
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That compelling argument for change just isn't reaching me right now... Balance looks fine as it is, with all this affirming testimony from Open advocates.

 

[Jesse Blue]

In this thread alone, there are a number of players that have said they just plain prefer solo. Because of connections, disabilities, shyness, or just a quiet place to wind down from the trials of everyday life. There is even a large group of players that expected to get a completely offline version of Elite, but were offered SOlo as a reasonable substitution. Players may just prefer to control the people who they interact with. That's all we're talking about here. Just a choice of whom we spend our game time with.

I totally agree with you in this part and had nothing to argue with this. What I tried to argue about in my previous post, were not the reasons to choose a game mode in first place, but the reason to change to another (the post has been edited and I hope my meaning clarified). I must apologize for my poor chosing of words.
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My line of reasoning was more in line of that most people who switch from open solo display a common trend that usually has little to do with true self-fulfillness or genuine desire to experience other modes (although many facade it as that), and more with the rage and frustration of having unexpectedly lost their assets due to other player's intervention.

 

[Roland2]

Yes, pretty nice summary.... And with the expected amount of bias, no less. If there had been even a bit less than the expected amount, I'd have even +rep you, for your hard work.
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Missed this one yesterday... I do not ignore the word 'choice', in fact I have it very present in all my posts. Precisely one of the things I'm trying to argue is that by their decisions, FD made (is making) Solo a BETTER choice than Open.... When according to everyone, all choices should be equal and equivalent.
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Spoiler

That's what the mountain example was for. To illustrate that when aiming for the same rewards (The 5k bucks, and not just personal fulfillment as our brave forumite climber), you have absolutely no reason to choose to do it unprotected, or with people that could cut your ropes. (Though to be even an even more fair comparison, we could ask to our climber if given the choice to climb the mountain between being alone or being behind some suspicious strangers he doesn't know anything about, what of those choices he would take... even doing it only for his personal fulfillment...)
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I have yet to see a post in the line of:
"I have been playing in open for some time... and absolutely nothing bad happened to me beyond the ordinary... no player attacks... no profit loss... But one morning, I realized that I was not happy in open, and so, I changed to solo and now I'm a much more happy and self-fulfilled person".
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Sure, I will wait a for post like that, and then I'll start to believe that people change game mode only for his personal self-fulfillment. In the meantime, I can show you a myriad of posts in the line of:
"I was in open but someone destroyed my ship and I changed to solo, never to return to open"
"I never logged in open because I fear who I'll meet there"... etc etc... you know the song.
.
Oh, but let's not forget that there is absolutely no additional risk in Open... That's a falacy, of course.

Sorry, but FD isn't making any mode a "better" choice. Better is subjective, and in this case is based on the one making the choice, not FD. If you think solo is the better choice, for whatever reason, then play solo. If you thing group or open are better choices, play in one of those modes.

Another way of looking at this, as has been stated before, is the only difference between the modes is the matchmaking. So the only difference is who do you want to play with (if anybody)? If playing in open is not a better choice, the players in open are the ones that make it that way, not FD.

If you want to play the blame game, put it where it belongs, with those who play in open.

 

[optiplex]

I've been in since premium beta, have never logged on ever in open. Solo for me is the closest to offline that was ditched as most will know. I surely can't be the only one who hasn't dipped into open?

I have tried open a couple of times and in general within an hour i will come across some idiot who just wants a fight but has no ability to talk. Then its a case of get the hell out of there or be killed because they know not better. Mobius all the way for me now.

 

[Mohrgan]

I totally agree with you in this part and had nothing to argue with this. What I tried to argue about in my previous post, were not the reasons to choose a game mode in first place, but the reason to change to another (the post has been edited and I hope my meaning clarified). I must apologize for my poor chosing of words.
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My line of reasoning was more in line of that most people who switch from open solo display a common trend that usually has little to do with true self-fulfillness or genuine desire to experience other modes (although many facade it as that), and more with the rage and frustration of having unexpectedly lost their assets due to other player's intervention.

Even that is a reach. What you are actually seeing is just the players that come on the forums to complain. There is no way to tell how many play in groups just to associate with friends, or players like me, who jump between the modes as my interests change. Players that just find solo/group more compelling may just have less incentive to proclaim it on the forums.

Your bias for open is showing in how you describe what brings people to choose a mode. You wish to paint anyone who chooses solo, or group, play with the same brush as the authors of the 'I got ganked' threads. That can't be supported. I can suggest that players wishing to swell the ranks of open just to have more hapless victims use the exact same sort of facade, as those that feel the need to couch their reasons for not playing in open.

I appreciate your response to that one paragraph, but what about the rest of that post? Especially the last paragraph, about the relative risk in open compared to solo.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=169958

 

[Dave1235]

<snip>

I have yet to see a post in the line of:
"I have been playing in open for some time... and absolutely nothing bad happened to me beyond the ordinary... no player attacks... no profit loss... But one morning, I realized that I was not happy in open, and so, I changed to solo and now I'm a much more happy and self-fulfilled person".

I played in open from PB1 to mid Gamma "and absolutely nothing bad happened to me beyond the ordinary... no player attacks"

I had enough of reading *some* people on this forum throwing around words like "coward" and other insults, I decided that I did not want to spend a moment of my gaming time with people that I personally find obnoxious.

Hows that work for ya?

 

[Lestenio]

I will wait a for post like that, and then I'll start to believe that people change game mode only for his personal self-fulfillment. In the meantime,:

Then allow me. I played open during beta and up until around February until I moved to Solo. I was never interdicted, pirated or grief killed, and I never had any bad experiences. I play pretty much entirely solo now (occasionally group, or open) because I have no interest in all the things that what I call the ‘new open’ brings. I’m happy with the PvE experience, it’s what I enjoy and the experience I bought. The chances of being interdicted, pirated or other chance encounters do not enhance my game play.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I played in open from PB1 to mid Gamma "and absolutely nothing bad happened to me beyond the ordinary... no player attacks"

I had enough of reading *some* people on this forum throwing around words like "coward" and other insults, I decided that I did not want to spend a moment of my gaming time with people that I personally find obnoxious.

Hows that work for ya?

ditto! other than some bad experiences in premium beta i have never been attacked too much in open, where i was 100% of the time until leesti station griefing happened.

I too have now left open, not because of what DID happen to me but because of what MIGHT!. I knew about the shizzle at leesti so just stayed out, but the thing for me, in ED multiplayer I wanted a scenario where when I saw a hollow box i was interested to see a fellow CMDR not constantly looking over my shoulder and wondering if they were gonna shoot me or not (piracy i would be ok with, but just killing on sight... no thanks!). I drop back in to open from time to time but for me generally the "other" MP mode is a better fit for me when my internet is up to it, and solo when i am forced to solo.

 

[bootsam]

I dont wish to interact with Players as I think everyone is obnoxious and I'm too, shall we say, relaxed whilst playing. I'm more than happy with just chuffing along minding my own business pretending to rule the universe. NCP's are my fodder and I'm more than happy with that. I dont wish to upset anyone by blasting their ship or be forced to write to my MP due to some bounder shooting at me. People have a choice and thats great.