Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[ianw]

I guess this is something many of us on any side of the argument feel.

It's puzzling that there are so many things FD could implement (many their own suggestions/plans) to make things better for all styles of play in open but for whatever reason they don't seem to want to.

It's quite an achievement to manage to frustrate pirates, bounty hunters, traders and others in almost equal measures in one way or another simultaneously!

 

[Roybe]

I'd agree with you if there wasn't pvp in the game. What explanation is easier to buy? FD want a pve game and added pvp because they don't know how video games work, or they want both but don't know how to balance the two conflicting styles of gameplay. The latter one is incompetence but the former is incompetence to an unheard of level.

It's like saying I want to raise chickens but I'm going to allow wolves free access to the pen. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and say, they want to raise both but can't figure out the locking mechanism on the cages.

How about they wanted money from everyone...and sold the game to everyone with promises that it would be everything to everyone in one package?

My expectations on this is that they expected people to understand that people that played in Open understood the nature of Open....in that 'anything could happen'....you punch your ticket and you takes your chances'. But since there is some lack of explicit warning, a lot of folks in this community feels it is somehow not what is supposed to occur. <shrug>

I still believe that if Open was supposed to be about players interacting cooperatively rather than antagonistically, the best way for this problem to be repaired would be the removal of direct PVP from the galaxy at large, once it is replaced by CQC.

You cannot balance PVP and PVE...the current attempts to do so have shown that it is impossible. The devs have created a system, currently, where there is no in game incentive to kill other players. You receive the same rewards for killing each other as you do for killing NPC's. Any PvP death is a loss to the winner and loser, with the perpetrator of the attack incurring larger losses due to bounties and fines. Honestly, there is no logical sense to PVP in this game and yet...it still exists...and the vast majority of the player base, as in any game that involves the mixing of PVE and PVP, dislikes the mixing of the play styles. PVP might be rare, in the vast scheme of the game, but it is meaningless (to many)...and has meaning (at least on a level of salty tears and cruelty) to others.

I would prefer removal of PVP over the creation of a new player flag that would basically create a PVE 'mode' as the splintering of the game even further would make the actual Open vs. (everyone can attack everyone from everywhere) problem even more exacerbated. 'Just' make the galaxy a pure co-op game and the only way to PVP is through the PVE system and the game will be on better footing.

The only other option is to accept what we have, learn to enjoy playing in Open with all the danger, damage, and hate it generates...and move on. You cannot make these two groups be happy in this game under these rules....since they are mutually exclusive...people will get their jollies by killing folks at SAG A*. And because of the rules of the game, we have to accept this will happen. We can complain bitterly...but this is the game design, good for some, bad for others. Since we have private groups and Solo...this is completely avoidable...and everyone has to come to grips with this and stop whining about 'why they should get special treatment'.

To be honest I agree a statement should be made when you hit the Open button.... 'Abandon Hope, All Ye Who Enter' should suffice.

 

[DarkWalker]

As someone who is definitely in the open preferred camp. Yes, yes it is.

Piracy (at least pvp piracy which is the most fun) requires people in the PvP mode that don't want to actively partake in PvP to work. Someone who wants to partake in pvp will trade in a decent asp or python loadout... you don't want to pirate that. Not without a wing of powerful ships.

I'm a simple pirate of simple means, I need the players in t6s and t7s to stay in PvP open.

I was trying to come up with a gentler way of saying it, but screw that.

If the above is how you think, you are the kind of player that I don't want to play with. Not merely in a "I don't want to be shot by you" way, but in a "I will refuse to aid you or anyone that is grouped with you, I will refuse to talk to you in game, and I will do my best to get you kicked from any group I'm part of" way. The same way I got similarly thinking people kicked from my raid group, back when I still raided hard modes in WoW, by threatening to leave the raid without their tank if they ever accepted any such player in the raid. I see forcing unwilling players into PvP as nothing more, nothing less, than plain old griefing, and treat players that practice that accordingly.

 

[Marra Morgan]

I see forcing unwilling players into PvP as nothing more, nothing less, than plain old griefing, and treat players that practice that accordingly.

Following that, do you think that players pursuing the Pirate role should ask for consent before raising the black flag?

- "Avast! May I pirate you?"
- "No."
- "Oh. Righto."

Is this approach preferable?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I have recently done a survey amongst a selected group of Elite players about the modes (methodology of determining the target group for survey can be read in spoiler), and the result of that survey is that 100% of players asked are of the opinion that the modes are fine, can we please move on and give it a rest.

Spoiler

The survey was impartially conducted on a demographically selected customer-service focus consultancy, broken down by age and sex - i.e. me. Because there is no-one more broken down by age and sex.

 

[Theodrid]

I have recently done a survey amongst a selected group of Elite players about the modes (methodology of determining the target group for survey can be read in spoiler), and the result of that survey is that 100% of players asked are of the opinion that the modes are fine, can we please move on and give it a rest.

Spoiler

The survey was impartially conducted on a demographically selected customer-service focus consultancy, broken down by age and sex - i.e. me. Because there is no-one more broken down by age and sex.

In all honesty, it's just age that has broken you down isn't it Ziggy?

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Following that, do you think that players pursuing the Pirate role should ask for consent before raising the black flag?

…

Yes. It would be best if there was a dedicated PvE server without any chance of PvP (maybe just inside CZ). That would solve a lot of problems. If somebody plays in the open PvP mode then the consent is given by logging into the PvP mode.

The big problem, a problem I don't know how it could be solved, is that probably almost no trader or explorer would join the open PvP mode. To some part this problem is already noticeable with the Solo/group vs. Open discussion.

To be honest in my opinion the whole concept of piracy in ED is completely broken and in my opinion one of the worst ideas any game designer ever had.
In reality piracy at its core is about breaking the personality of the victim. Piracy is not "Pirates of the Caribbean", it is not like those pirate movies from the 1960s - it's one of the worst things humans can do to other humans.
I keep telling me that players that do piracy in ED don't know real piracy, that they are following a Disney fantasy, but reading how much some enjoy dominating others is really scary for me. I know it's a game, but …

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

piracy can work in eilite dangerous imo, but NPC piracy has to be improved.

but bear in mind piracy does not need to be profitable enough to earn an equivalent amount of money as trading in an anaconda. not all roles need to be equal in terms of money BUT

ideally there needs to be other hooks for piracy - pirate factions which you cant get access to without certain pirate reputations with missions given to steal (NPC) ships etc. I see the life as a pirate in ED being more than just pirating ships for cargo, but also maintaining the structure of your pirates group, which could include smuggling for them and what not - basically if anything is shady it should be something a pirate could consider - as well as buffing with other more legal missions too..... Pirates should also be going up against competing pirates groups imo. None of this should have to involve players, but if players want to get involved for or against you then all the better.

if a player pirate could rarely get the opportunity to actually pirate a SHIP (but only when at a certain pirate rating ) and sell that for even 50% of its value then that would go a long way to buffing the piracy role, so even if the hr to hr profits were not quite as high as some roles, you have the chance of getting a "golden mission" which may have a large impact on your profits.

this is still a ways down the road however.

note I said NPC ship. I do not think players will appreciate getting their ship stolen from them - though it is possible that may come too.

 

[Marra Morgan]

Yes. It would be best if there was a dedicated PvE server without any chance of PvP (maybe just inside CZ). That would solve a lot of problems. If somebody plays in the open PvP mode then the consent is given by logging into the PvP mode.

The big problem, a problem I don't know how it could be solved, is that probably almost no trader or explorer would join the open PvP mode. To some part this problem is already noticeable with the Solo/group vs. Open discussion.

Yes, that's the snag. For the Pirate role to work there must be an element of non-consent.

To be honest in my opinion the whole concept of piracy in ED is completely broken and in my opinion one of the worst ideas any game designer ever had.

I think the concept works as well as it can as far as piracy goes - get ship with guns, point guns at ship with cargo, issue demands.
The consequences... yeah, more work is needed.

In reality piracy at its core is about breaking the personality of the victim. Piracy is not "Pirates of the Caribbean", it is not like those pirate movies from the 1960s - it's one of the worst things humans can do to other humans.
I keep telling me that players that do piracy in ED don't know real piracy, that they are following a Disney fantasy, but reading how much some enjoy dominating others is really scary for me. I know it's a game, but …

In the whole of the Pirates of the Caribbean film franchise, not a single act of piracy is committed! I always found that funny, in the same way that Han Solo never actually smuggles anything in SW

But yes, I get your point about real-life piracy being heinous. Fortunately, Elite is squarely in the realms of fantasy and it's ok to play that space-pirate trope if a player wishes to. I understand that both PvP and PvE players are capable of taking it way too far outside of space-pixel-fantasy; reading this thread gives plenty of proof of that, but fortunately I think they are a rare minority and the majority of players enjoy competitive and co-operative play in good-natured fashion.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I'm a simple pirate of simple means, I need the players in t6s and t7s to stay in PvP open.

like it or not however, you need them but they do not need you....... and if you bought the game thinking they would be forced to play with you regardless of if they wanted to or not, then imo you bought the wrong game.

 

[DarkWalker]

Following that, do you think that players pursuing the Pirate role should ask for consent before raising the black flag?

- "Avast! May I pirate you?"
- "No."
- "Oh. Righto."

Is this approach preferable?

My post was in answer to a player saying that he is against an Open PvE mode because it would allow players that don't want to be engaged in PvP to better avoid it. That kind of thinking is something I don't condone, never will, and I will do everything in my power to never help, or even play with, anyone that thinks like that.

Apart from that, I don't think the current approach to consenting to be pirated is appropriate. It's better than nothing — a player that doesn't want to be pirated can play in Solo and only lose the interaction with other players, or even resort to combat logging — but there is no way to clearly indicate that you want, or don't want, to take part in that aspect of the game. Which, as a result, means I currently have a very negative view of any PvP pirate in this game, since they press on forcing PvP on others even knowing that there isn't an appropriate way for unwilling targets to opt out of PvP without giving up on much of the social contact at the same time.

 

[Marra Morgan]

Which, as a result, means I currently have a very negative view of any PvP pirate in this game, since they press on forcing PvP on others even knowing that there isn't an appropriate way for unwilling targets to opt out of PvP without giving up on much of the social contact at the same time.

Rubbish, there's that Mobius PvE group that's got loads of pilots to socialise with. And they all like PvE!
I play there myself occasionally. I'm well behaved, of course.

 

[DarkWalker]

Yes, that's the snag. For the Pirate role to work there must be an element of non-consent.

If I thought that was the case, then I would be pressing for the complete removal of the pirate role from the game.

I don't think so. NPC piracy can work with some tweaks, and together with the players that actually want to face the risk of player piracy (they exist) that should be enough to keep even PvP-oriented pirates in business (as long as they don't insist on only pirating other players).

In the whole of the Pirates of the Caribbean film franchise, not a single act of piracy is committed! I always found that funny, in the same way that Han Solo never actually smuggles anything in SW

If you consider the moving of passengers against the wishes of the government as smuggling, he smuggled Luke and Obi Wan (and the droids) out of Tatooine, and they plus himself and Chewbacca into the Death Star, though the later was spur of the moment. Plus, he very much used smuggling know-how to pretend to be space trash as he escaped a Star Destroyer in Empire Strikes Back, and the only reason he accepted Luke and Obi Wan as passengers in the first place was because he was in debt because of a mishap while smuggling for Jabba.

Smuggling — specially when the government is corrupt — is, in the end, far more acceptable to audiences than piracy of any kind; there are a few moral lines that a smuggler doesn't cross, but a pirate does. Which is why protagonists that effectively act as smuggles are far more prevalent in fiction than protagonists that effectively act as pirates.

Rubbish, there's that Mobius PvE group that's got loads of pilots to socialise with. And they all like PvE!
I play there myself occasionally. I'm well behaved, of course.

Yep, there is Mobius PvE. An unofficial PvE group that is basically known among the minority of players that frequent the forums. Without some kind of official support from the devs, though, this can't ever be considered an appropriate solution to allow players to socialize without PvP.

 

[ianw]

Yes, that's the snag. For the Pirate role to work there must be an element of non-consent.

*Rumsfeld mode on

Non-consenting non-consent is not the same as consenting non-consent!

 

[Marra Morgan]

NPC piracy can work with some tweaks, and together with the players that actually want to face the risk of player piracy (they exist) that should be enough to keep even PvP-oriented pirates in business (as long as they don't insist on only pirating other players).

I'm with you on this. After proving to myself that I'm rubbish at PvP piracy (all my "victims" escape ) I do a little bit of PvE piracy. A few tweaks, like the AI knowing when to give up and drop cargo, could make it work much better.

If you consider the moving of passengers against the wishes of the government as smuggling, he smuggled Luke and Obi Wan (and the droids) out of Tatooine, and they plus himself and Chewbacca into the Death Star, though the later was spur of the moment. Plus, he very much used smuggling know-how to pretend to be space trash as he escaped a Star Destroyer in Empire Strikes Back, and the only reason he accepted Luke and Obi Wan as passengers in the first place was because he was in debt because of a mishap while smuggling for Jabba.

Hehe fair points!

Smuggling — specially when the government is corrupt — is, in the end, far more acceptable to audiences than piracy of any kind; there are a few moral lines that a smuggler doesn't cross, but a pirate does. Which is why protagonists that effectively act as smuggles are far more prevalent in fiction than protagonists that effectively act as pirates.

Yes, that's mainly true. Although as my experience in Elite RP goes, my character is a smuggler and can be more heinous than some pirates. Lots of pirates out there carry themselves with honour and let their victims go when they comply. I sell drugs which ruin lives and break down families. I sell weapons to rebels and terrorists. I ship marked slaves to the Archon's HQ for a life in servitude. Who knows, maybe I'll find a worthy cause to redeem myself? Playing the villain can be a fun ride

 

[Cody]

I sell drugs which ruin lives and break down families. I sell weapons to rebels and terrorists. I ship marked slaves to the Archon's HQ for a life in servitude.

Someone on the wrong end of a gun has no options, a slave has no options - but a drug addict has options!

 

[Seonid]

Without some kind of official support from the devs, though, this can't ever be considered an appropriate solution to allow players to socialize without PvP.

I just refuelled a stranded CMDR near Hutton, there's some non-PvP player social interaction in Open for you.

 

[Marra Morgan]

Someone on the wrong end of a gun has no options, a slave has no options - but a drug addict has options!

They certainly do with me as their dealer... I got Onionhead, Halbangaay Black, NRG pips from LTT 16548, Geawen Dance Dust, Motrona Experience jelly...

 

[Imperial Guard]

I have posted a few times on these Solo/Open threads.

Here is the perspective of somebody that has never played in SOLO.

I have zero interest in killing NPCs of any description.
For me, combat zones, res sites and NPC undermining is highly tedious. (albeit necessary at the beginning to make some cash)
I avoid all NPC interdictions for the same reason..

I do 1 hour a week of merit grinding to maintain LEVEL 4 and that's it.

I am interested in playing with other people either in a co-op role or a PVP role.

examples.
- Blockading enemy home / control systems to prevent them delivering fortifications
- Flying armed escort for allied traders going into hostile space...... or delivering our own fortification supplies.
- Killing Pirates

That being said, there is often NO ENEMY to be found... which turns out to be quite boring.
I have come to the conclusion that sooner or later I will probably end up being a pirate myself, attacking everybody indiscriminately.
Its probably the only way to stave off boredom.

 

[Cody]

I got Onionhead, Halbangaay Black, NRG pips from LTT 16548, Geawen Dance Dust, Motrona Experience jelly...

Such a limited selection? Call yourself a dealer?