Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[Bacalao]

I have posted a few times on these Solo/Open threads.

Here is the perspective of somebody that has never played in SOLO.

I have zero interest in killing NPCs of any description.
For me, combat zones, res sites and NPC undermining is highly tedious. (albeit necessary at the beginning to make some cash)
I avoid all NPC interdictions for the same reason..

I do 1 hour a week of merit grinding to maintain LEVEL 4 and that's it.

I am interested in playing with other people either in a co-op role or a PVP role.

examples.
- Blockading enemy home / control systems to prevent them delivering fortifications
- Flying armed escort for allied traders going into hostile space...... or delivering our own fortification supplies.
- Killing Pirates

That being said, there is often NO ENEMY to be found... which turns out to be quite boring.
I have come to the conclusion that sooner or later I will probably end up being a pirate myself, attacking everybody indiscriminately.
Its probably the only way to stave off boredom.

Why is it more interesting to shoot hollow boxes over solid boxes?

 

[DarkWalker]

Playing the villain can be a fun ride

For some, true. For others, like myself, that is very much untrue. The most into "gray" territory I can get without hating myself for it is a bit beyond Han Solo, who is often described as a "scoundrel with a heart of gold".

It's not that I can't play games that go beyond that, but to do so I need to intentionally break my immersion, reinforce in my mind that it's just a game. Which then means that I won't be giving a rat's ass about scenario, lore, or even more basic things such as whether what I'm doing is in character or even makes sense; if you value your own immersion, you don't want to play with me when I'm playing like that.

Incidentally, it also means that, whenever that happens, I will be playing just for the mechanical challenges, which in turn means I'm far less likely to enjoy the game or even purchase it in the first place; it's why, despite loving open world games, I haven't ever played anything from the GTA franchise, and I don't think I ever will while the player character is a criminal.

BTW, one interesting thing that I've noticed is that there's some correlation between liking to play the "evil" side and liking PvP. In WoW, for example, most of the PvE-focused players play Alliance, while most of the PvP-focused players play Horde. In DCUO there's a similar trend, with most of the PvE players playing Hero, and the PvP ones playing Villain. It's not an overwhelming majority, but it's already a strong enough trend to cause issues with matchmaking, to the point WoW now allows players of the same faction to fight each other in battlegrounds.

 

[Faded Glory]

Of course it's acceptable, but that's another goalpost as well. Flying in the station upside down and landing that way until your ship explodes is an acceptable play style. It doesn't mean Open is intended for upside suicide runs.

If piracy were governed, it would not be piracy, it would be the IRS. No one would want to be a pirate who has a strict set of guidelines to obey, except that they be created by the pirates themselves. On the high seas surely not every pirate ship was Captain Jack Sparrow. There were plenty who would probably pilfer and pillage and pilfer (you said pilfer twice).

I don't think Open (or indeed any of the modes) is/are intended as anything other than places to play the game. Who you get to play with is the only difference, and as such, the criticism (by others, not you), that FD's design is faulty is actually flawed, as it's possible to filter out elements of gameplay that you don't wish to engage in.

Piracy, or at least PvP piracy will (IMO) always be a problem, because I really don't believe many players want to play the victim role as an ongoing thing. The only thing that FD have control over, and could ever really have control over, is the Environment, so probably the answer to the piracy issue is to make NPC's worth pirating, and at least to an extent interesting to pirate. It shouldn't be impossible, as there are presumably only a limited number of ways a pirate interdiction can go, the trader / victim can either give cargo (perhaps with a bit of negotiation), attempt to flee, or attempt to fight. The idea that only players make worthwhile victims needs to be countered, as ultimately, having player victims is unsustainable.

 

[Herik]

How about they wanted money from everyone...and sold the game to everyone with promises that it would be everything to everyone in one package?

My expectations on this is that they expected people to understand that people that played in Open understood the nature of Open....in that 'anything could happen'....you punch your ticket and you takes your chances'. But since there is some lack of explicit warning, a lot of folks in this community feels it is somehow not what is supposed to occur. <shrug>

I still believe that if Open was supposed to be about players interacting cooperatively rather than antagonistically, the best way for this problem to be repaired would be the removal of direct PVP from the galaxy at large, once it is replaced by CQC.

You cannot balance PVP and PVE...the current attempts to do so have shown that it is impossible. The devs have created a system, currently, where there is no in game incentive to kill other players. You receive the same rewards for killing each other as you do for killing NPC's. Any PvP death is a loss to the winner and loser, with the perpetrator of the attack incurring larger losses due to bounties and fines. Honestly, there is no logical sense to PVP in this game and yet...it still exists...and the vast majority of the player base, as in any game that involves the mixing of PVE and PVP, dislikes the mixing of the play styles. PVP might be rare, in the vast scheme of the game, but it is meaningless (to many)...and has meaning (at least on a level of salty tears and cruelty) to others.

I would prefer removal of PVP over the creation of a new player flag that would basically create a PVE 'mode' as the splintering of the game even further would make the actual Open vs. (everyone can attack everyone from everywhere) problem even more exacerbated. 'Just' make the galaxy a pure co-op game and the only way to PVP is through the PVE system and the game will be on better footing.

The only other option is to accept what we have, learn to enjoy playing in Open with all the danger, damage, and hate it generates...and move on. You cannot make these two groups be happy in this game under these rules....since they are mutually exclusive...people will get their jollies by killing folks at SAG A*. And because of the rules of the game, we have to accept this will happen. We can complain bitterly...but this is the game design, good for some, bad for others. Since we have private groups and Solo...this is completely avoidable...and everyone has to come to grips with this and stop whining about 'why they should get special treatment'.

To be honest I agree a statement should be made when you hit the Open button.... 'Abandon Hope, All Ye Who Enter' should suffice.

It's what I and others told FD months before the release of the game; -namely to use a PvE flag. The response was "No we will never do that". My guess is, it steps to hard on DB's 'vision of the game'; however impractical.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

How about they wanted money from everyone...and sold the game to everyone with promises that it would be everything to everyone in one package?

My expectations on this is that they expected people to understand that people that played in Open understood the nature of Open....in that 'anything could happen'....you punch your ticket and you takes your chances'. But since there is some lack of explicit warning, a lot of folks in this community feels it is somehow not what is supposed to occur. <shrug>

I still believe that if Open was supposed to be about players interacting cooperatively rather than antagonistically, the best way for this problem to be repaired would be the removal of direct PVP from the galaxy at large, once it is replaced by CQC.

You cannot balance PVP and PVE...the current attempts to do so have shown that it is impossible. The devs have created a system, currently, where there is no in game incentive to kill other players. You receive the same rewards for killing each other as you do for killing NPC's. Any PvP death is a loss to the winner and loser, with the perpetrator of the attack incurring larger losses due to bounties and fines. Honestly, there is no logical sense to PVP in this game and yet...it still exists...and the vast majority of the player base, as in any game that involves the mixing of PVE and PVP, dislikes the mixing of the play styles. PVP might be rare, in the vast scheme of the game, but it is meaningless (to many)...and has meaning (at least on a level of salty tears and cruelty) to others.

I would prefer removal of PVP over the creation of a new player flag that would basically create a PVE 'mode' as the splintering of the game even further would make the actual Open vs. (everyone can attack everyone from everywhere) problem even more exacerbated. 'Just' make the galaxy a pure co-op game and the only way to PVP is through the PVE system and the game will be on better footing.

The only other option is to accept what we have, learn to enjoy playing in Open with all the danger, damage, and hate it generates...and move on. You cannot make these two groups be happy in this game under these rules....since they are mutually exclusive...people will get their jollies by killing folks at SAG A*. And because of the rules of the game, we have to accept this will happen. We can complain bitterly...but this is the game design, good for some, bad for others. Since we have private groups and Solo...this is completely avoidable...and everyone has to come to grips with this and stop whining about 'why they should get special treatment'.

To be honest I agree a statement should be made when you hit the Open button.... 'Abandon Hope, All Ye Who Enter' should suffice.

Hanlons razor, never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. While it's possible fd advertised to both groups while knowing neither will be happy, I'll still give them the benefit of the doubt and say it's just terrible balancing.

Pvp will never be completely removed from the game the same as pve and mode switching will never be completely removed from the game. That cat is out of the bag, good luck getting it back in.

I do agree that open could be clearer and say you may be attqcked by a player. That way no complaints.

 

[DarkWalker]

Hanlons razor, never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. While it's possible fd advertised to both groups while knowing neither will be happy, I'll still give them the benefit of the doubt and say it's just terrible balancing.

My money is on simple ignorance of human nature. Many MMO devs faced the same kind of issues, specially on their first MMOs, by failing spectacularly in predicting how players would behave.

Ultima Online, in particular, had a similar issue in that the devs thought the players would collaborate far more, and interact negatively far less, than in the end happened.

I do agree that open could be clearer and say you may be attqcked by a player. That way no complaints.

For there to be no complains, IMHO, the game would need another mode that offered everything Open offers, including the chance of meeting random strangers, but without the PvP. But yeah, more clearly indicating what Open means would be a plus.

 

[relayer]

In the whole of the Pirates of the Caribbean film franchise, not a single act of piracy is committed! I always found that funny, in the same way that Han Solo never actually smuggles anything in SW

You don't count the comandeering of the HMS Interceptor as piracy? :O

 

[Marra Morgan]

You don't count the comandeering of the HMS Interceptor as piracy? :O

Nah, that's just boatjacking! There's no hoisting the black flag on a merchantman, closing in for a couple of broadsides before boarding and plundering the vessel. That's the piracy we all know and love, and there's none of it in all four films!

 

[Jockey79]

It's what I and others told FD months before the release of the game; -namely to use a PvE flag. The response was "No we will never do that". My guess is, it steps to hard on DB's 'vision of the game'; however impractical.

I'm thinking the flag system would have been a better idea than throw everyone in together, full PvP on and hope for the best.

 

[DaveB]

...I am interested in playing with other people either in a co-op role or a PVP role.

examples.
- Blockading enemy home / control systems to prevent them delivering fortifications
- Flying armed escort for allied traders going into hostile space...... or delivering our own fortification supplies.
- Killing Pirates ...

Perspective of somebody who plays in all three modes on your perspective of somebody that has never played solo...

1: Go for it. Any players you encounter will be up for a role either allied with you or opposing you and you'll probably find a few decent fights. Just don't tell the players in a PvE private group or in Solo that they've no right to have any impact on "your" galaxy. They have the same right to that as you do to have an impact on "theirs". Just assume that no matter how good you are you will never catch them all - blockades have always been leaky to one extent or another.
2: Go for it. If I encounter you offering escort in open I might just take you up on it - wing up with me for a share of my trade profit and I don't fly defenseless trucks if I can avoid it so I might be able to provide you some covering fire at least
3: Sounds like fun, but don't think any less of me if I fry a few NPC bad guys too - it all spends.

 

[W0OCQCK]

How about they wanted money from everyone...and sold the game to everyone with promises that it would be everything to everyone in one package?

My expectations on this is that they expected people to understand that people that played in Open understood the nature of Open....in that 'anything could happen'....you punch your ticket and you takes your chances'. But since there is some lack of explicit warning, a lot of folks in this community feels it is somehow not what is supposed to occur. <shrug>

I still believe that if Open was supposed to be about players interacting cooperatively rather than antagonistically, the best way for this problem to be repaired would be the removal of direct PVP from the galaxy at large, once it is replaced by CQC.

You cannot balance PVP and PVE...the current attempts to do so have shown that it is impossible. The devs have created a system, currently, where there is no in game incentive to kill other players. You receive the same rewards for killing each other as you do for killing NPC's. Any PvP death is a loss to the winner and loser, with the perpetrator of the attack incurring larger losses due to bounties and fines. Honestly, there is no logical sense to PVP in this game and yet...it still exists...and the vast majority of the player base, as in any game that involves the mixing of PVE and PVP, dislikes the mixing of the play styles. PVP might be rare, in the vast scheme of the game, but it is meaningless (to many)...and has meaning (at least on a level of salty tears and cruelty) to others.

I would prefer removal of PVP over the creation of a new player flag that would basically create a PVE 'mode' as the splintering of the game even further would make the actual Open vs. (everyone can attack everyone from everywhere) problem even more exacerbated. 'Just' make the galaxy a pure co-op game and the only way to PVP is through the PVE system and the game will be on better footing.

The only other option is to accept what we have, learn to enjoy playing in Open with all the danger, damage, and hate it generates...and move on. You cannot make these two groups be happy in this game under these rules....since they are mutually exclusive...people will get their jollies by killing folks at SAG A*. And because of the rules of the game, we have to accept this will happen. We can complain bitterly...but this is the game design, good for some, bad for others. Since we have private groups and Solo...this is completely avoidable...and everyone has to come to grips with this and stop whining about 'why they should get special treatment'.

To be honest I agree a statement should be made when you hit the Open button.... 'Abandon Hope, All Ye Who Enter' should suffice.

Very good post, nice read.

- - - Updated - - -

I was trying to come up with a gentler way of saying it, but screw that.

If the above is how you think, you are the kind of player that I don't want to play with. Not merely in a "I don't want to be shot by you" way, but in a "I will refuse to aid you or anyone that is grouped with you, I will refuse to talk to you in game, and I will do my best to get you kicked from any group I'm part of" way. The same way I got similarly thinking people kicked from my raid group, back when I still raided hard modes in WoW, by threatening to leave the raid without their tank if they ever accepted any such player in the raid. I see forcing unwilling players into PvP as nothing more, nothing less, than plain old griefing, and treat players that practice that accordingly.

Agreed. But since open is the anything goes mode, be prepared when you log on there.

 

[W0OCQCK]

Following that, do you think that players pursuing the Pirate role should ask for consent before raising the black flag?

- "Avast! May I pirate you?"
- "No."
- "Oh. Righto."

Is this approach preferable?

Silly question. What do you think.

Pirates should be pirates! But if your style of play requires other players to actively participate one might consider modifying ones play style to encourage the participation of others. Especially in a game where consent is a factor.

 

[Robert Maynard]

There are players who want to play WITH other people, not necessarily AGAINST other people all the time.

Indeed.

Piracy (at least pvp piracy which is the most fun) requires people in the PvP mode that don't want to actively partake in PvP to work. Someone who wants to partake in pvp will trade in a decent asp or python loadout... you don't want to pirate that. Not without a wing of powerful ships.

I'm a simple pirate of simple means, I need the players in t6s and t7s to stay in PvP open.

It would seem then that your preferred PvP piracy requires that targeted players have little or no chance to effectively resist the attack.

Yes, that's the snag. For the Pirate role to work there must be an element of non-consent.

Which is why there have been calls for an officially supported Open-PvE mode - as askavir said above, some players just want to play with / among other players, not against them.

That being said, there is often NO ENEMY to be found... which turns out to be quite boring.
I have come to the conclusion that sooner or later I will probably end up being a pirate myself, attacking everybody indiscriminately.
Its probably the only way to stave off boredom.

If you start firing at everybody indiscriminately then there may be those who will be put off playing in Open due to your playstyle - it's a bit of a vicious circle - no targets in one type of play, shoot everything, less targets eventually (probably).

 

[Phosphora]

As someone who is definitely in the open preferred camp. Yes, yes it is.

Piracy (at least pvp piracy which is the most fun) requires people in the PvP mode that don't want to actively partake in PvP to work. Someone who wants to partake in pvp will trade in a decent asp or python loadout... you don't want to pirate that. Not without a wing of powerful ships.

I'm a simple pirate of simple means, I need the players in t6s and t7s to stay in PvP open.

Ah, but I don't need to be pirated. I just wouldn't enjoy it, and I'm only playing the game because I enjoy it. What's fun to you may be dull and boring to others.

Cheers, Phos.

 

[Sylveria]

If you start firing at everybody indiscriminately then there may be those who will be put off playing in Open due to your playstyle - it's a bit of a vicious circle - no targets in one type of play, shoot everything, less targets eventually (probably).

And this is exactly why you see a bunch of pirates/PK'ers screaming for Solo to be lumped with Open mode now- because they've chased off all the "game".

The moral of the story here folks: "Sure, you've got the freedom to act like a complete jerk- but it doesn't mean people have to be around you, either."

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

I have a brilliant idea that solves all the problems with Open Mode:

CMDRs have to earn flight-time in their combat ships!

For every hour flying a Hauler, T-6, T-7 or T-9 the CMDR earns the right to fly a similar combat ship.
To keep it fair the time earned is modified by pirate activity in the system the CMDR is flying the trading ship. Flying in the Lave cluster results in a x1 modifier. Flying in some system that only gets visited by one or two CMDRs in piracy capable combat ships within 24 h a much smaller modifier is used (for example x0.1 for an empty system).

That way pirates always have traders to pirate.
Traders know that pirates know how it is to fly a trading ship and being completely defenseless, weak and overall just prey-able objects.
Traders can get their revenge as they can kill pirates that have to serve their time in that flying trading coffin.
As a result everybody would be much more relaxed and achieve an emotional balance.

As I said, it solves all the problems.

Now lets all sing "Kumbaya…"

 

[Dave1235]

I have a brilliant idea that solves all the problems with Open Mode:

CMDRs have to earn flight-time in their combat ships!

For every hour flying a Hauler, T-6, T-7 or T-9 the CMDR earns the right to fly a similar combat ship.
To keep it fair the time earned is modified by pirate activity in the system the CMDR is flying the trading ship. Flying in the Lave cluster results in a x1 modifier. Flying in some system that only gets visited by one or two CMDRs in piracy capable combat ships within 24 h a much smaller modifier is used (for example x0.1 for an empty system).

That way pirates always have traders to pirate.
Traders know that pirates know how it is to fly a trading ship and being completely defenseless, weak and overall just prey-able objects.
Traders can get their revenge as they can kill pirates that have to serve their time in that flying trading coffin.
As a result everybody would be much more relaxed and achieve an emotional balance.

As I said, it solves all the problems.

Now lets all sing "Kumbaya…"

Great idea (sort of ), some sheep play the wolf now and again, wolfs never, ever, want to play the sheep role. Citation... lack of PVP only groups.

Now if only those wolfs would play the trader now and again, and share a little cargo.... oh, no, what am I thinking of, silly me that's what us sheep are for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEaKX9YYHiQ

Eta rofl, I watched the link again, it's got open and guilds in its core.

I'm so Wonely! in open. So Wonely

 

[Roland2]

I have a brilliant idea that solves all the problems with Open Mode:

CMDRs have to earn flight-time in their combat ships!

For every hour flying a Hauler, T-6, T-7 or T-9 the CMDR earns the right to fly a similar combat ship.
To keep it fair the time earned is modified by pirate activity in the system the CMDR is flying the trading ship. Flying in the Lave cluster results in a x1 modifier. Flying in some system that only gets visited by one or two CMDRs in piracy capable combat ships within 24 h a much smaller modifier is used (for example x0.1 for an empty system).

That way pirates always have traders to pirate.
Traders know that pirates know how it is to fly a trading ship and being completely defenseless, weak and overall just prey-able objects.
Traders can get their revenge as they can kill pirates that have to serve their time in that flying trading coffin.
As a result everybody would be much more relaxed and achieve an emotional balance.

As I said, it solves all the problems.

Now lets all sing "Kumbaya…"

What problems would it solve? Would it give the wolves more sheep? Maybe. Would it make the sheep happier to be sheep? Not at all.

Players would just go to solo, or a PvE group while they were traders, and still not get pirated by real players.

Since the game is over 9 months old, how would this be implemented? Just noobs would have to "earn the right" to fly combat ships? This would give sheep for the existing wolves, but wouldn't help the sheep any.

Or, would everyone have to zero there account, start over from scratch? This would totaly negate 9 months worth of work, I'm sure no one would complain about that(/sarcasm). And, if everyone did have to start over, there would be no pirates, just traders, since no one would have "earned the right".

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

What problems would it solve? Would it give the wolves more sheep? Maybe. Would it make the sheep happier to be sheep? Not at all.
…
Since the game is over 9 months old, how would this be implemented? Just noobs would have to "earn the right" to fly combat ships? This would give sheep for the existing wolves, but wouldn't help the sheep any.

Or, would everyone have to zero there account, start over from scratch? This would totaly negate 9 months worth of work, I'm sure no one would complain about that(/sarcasm). And, if everyone did have to start over, there would be no pirates, just traders, since no one would have "earned the right".

I should add that the time earned is a consumable. So 1 hour of trading earns you the right to fly a combat ship for 1 hour (this can be adjusted if needed). After that hour is spend the pirate would have to go back to a trading ship to earn more time in a combat ship.
That way a good supply for "sheep" is available.
It helps the "sheep" as they can jump into combat ships and then be the wolfs and take revenge on those who pirated or killed them as those would sooner or later have to refill their "combat ship time account".

And even if everybody who is currently a trader doesn't play open mode my system would ensure that there are always "sheep" for the "wolfs" in Open mode as all "wolfs" would have to spend some time as "sheep" in Open mode. Everybody happy

No need to start from scratch for everybody. As you already mentioned nobody would complain, but it's not needed and everybody would be even more happy

 

[Robert Maynard]

I should add that the time earned is a consumable. So 1 hour of trading earns you the right to fly a combat ship for 1 hour (this can be adjusted if needed). After that hour is spend the pirate would have to go back to a trading ship to earn more time in a combat ship.

It wouldn't exactly be "play the game how you want to " though, would it?