Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[Jockey79]

Tension may have actually been a bad choice. 'Discontent'? I posit that there is a reason why this topic keeps coming up again and again in a variety of threads only to eventually feed this monster.

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All I am saying is that there are certain "emergent content" (who came up with that??) scenarios that are not likely to ever work well in ED. It's probably not a problem because a lot of people don't seem to be interested. But I'm curious as to what interesting things may have come about. Maybe it has all been done before in other MMOs. I don't know. I don't play them.

The reason this comes up is two fold;

1, people don't research what they buy - then blame the company for their errors
2, the forums do not require proof of purchase to make a new forum account - some folks take advantage of that to beat the dead horse some more

"emergent content" also does not require PvP or a locked mode selection - so mode switching does not stop it, it just controls the type that emerges.
I point you to http://fuelrats.com/ - I'd say this classes as PvE emergent content. And if you read through what to do, you can see that you may be required to swap modes in order to get help.
As some people think it is fun to shout for help, then kill the Rat(s) that turn up - so some Rats will require you to join their private group, so to control who is in the instance with you and reduce the change they get killed trying to help someone (aka prevent any PvP from taking place). Please note, anyone who does such a thing, gets put on a list - and will no longer be able to use that service in the future.

I also did something very similar in Vendetta Online, I was part of the Emergency Medical Services - which all members of the PvP community respected and made them off limits* for the purpose of PvP.
I would sit in a PvP zone (knowing I was safe from PvP myself) just away fro mthe main fight and people would fly up to me (if they could) to get repairs, pay me, then back in to the fight they went.
The EMS were not aligned, so we patched up both sides of the fight, for anyone who could get within the "safe medical area".

* = There were exceptions, any member of the EMS could take on a private contract to be a medic with a group / convoy - which then would make them an eligible target to anyone attacking that group / convoy.

So even in the middle of a PvP area, you can get PvE emergent content.

 

[Mouse]

Emergent content is in-game activity (content) that comes about from a coordinated effort of players (as opposed to being generated or sponsored by the game and its creators). The Hutton CG was an example of this. The FD provided content was the CG. A number of "pirate" groups decided to attempt a blockade of that event. The blockade - while it annoyed a whole bunch of people - was emergent content. Players got together on their own to do something that the game hadn't provided for them. You will note that this particular example of emergent content required PvP. But not all do.



Yep. Pretty sure I said that people don't seem to be interested.

Um... you may want to talk to a lot of people who were there.. that wasn't emergent content... and emergent content does not have FORCED PVP in it.. which is one thing that happened at Hutton.

 

[Roland2]

I am a PvE player, but I actually see no issues with the Python players actions. The purpose of the different modes is for people like you who "perceive" that griefing occurred, even if in my opinion it didn't.

 

[Khelder]

"emergent content" also does not require PvP or a locked mode selection - so mode switching does not stop it, it just controls the type that emerges.
I point you to http://fuelrats.com/ - I'd say this classes as PvE emergent content. And if you read through what to do, you can see that you may be required to swap modes in order to get help.
As some people think it is fun to shout for help, then kill the Rat(s) that turn up - so some Rats will require you to join their private group, so to control who is in the instance with you and reduce the change they get killed trying to help someone (aka prevent any PvP from taking place). Please note, anyone who does such a thing, gets put on a list - and will no longer be able to use that service in the future.

I also did something very similar in Vendetta Online, I was part of the Emergency Medical Services - which all members of the PvP community respected and made them off limits* for the purpose of PvP.
I would sit in a PvP zone (knowing I was safe from PvP myself) just away fro mthe main fight and people would fly up to me (if they could) to get repairs, pay me, then back in to the fight they went.
The EMS were not aligned, so we patched up both sides of the fight, for anyone who could get within the "safe medical area".

* = There were exceptions, any member of the EMS could take on a private contract to be a medic with a group / convoy - which then would make them an eligible target to anyone attacking that group / convoy.

So even in the middle of a PvP area, you can get PvE emergent content.

I love the Fuel Rats. Such a great idea.

But, yes, obviously not all emergent content requires PvP. But some will. Your example in Vendetta Online actually sounds like a good one. It technically required a PvP environment to make sense, but didn't require PvP from the participants.

Anyway, it won't be a complete loss of emergent content. Just a bit less than what could have been.

 

[ianw]

Emergent content is in-game activity (content) that comes about from a coordinated effort of players (as opposed to being generated or sponsored by the game and its creators). The Hutton CG was an example of this. The FD provided content was the CG. A number of "pirate" groups decided to attempt a blockade of that event. The blockade - while it annoyed a whole bunch of people - was emergent content. Players got together on their own to do something that the game hadn't provided for them. You will note that this particular example of emergent content required PvP. But not all do.

Hutton is an interesting example that may end up being unique because of the distance to the station. FD created the goal but Hutton Orbital radio, the convoys the facebook group etc. etc. was all "emergent" content provided by the players - from which the Hutton Truckers group appears to have been born.

So I'd say main event was "emergent content" that didn't require PVP. Sure it added a bit of potential spice (from my pov) but no actual content in the main for me on my 14 trips when I didn't meet a single player pirate. The fun was getting together - the radio stuff, chat, teamspeak meeting new players etc. etc.

The pirates turned out to be an "emergent" sideshow mostly as due to the instancing most people didn't even see them. It wasn't till the end of the event after we'd succeeded on the last run that I went looking for trouble (- with an empty hold) trying to aid someone on my friendslist - and found them.

 

[Lestenio]

I'm at a loss as to why some people don't see that I am not asking for anything. As I have said on numerous occasions, I am looking at the issue at hand (mode switching and its effect on the same BGS) and have concluded that there is an element of unfairness in it. If some people can't see the logic behind that conclusion - I don't know what else to do. Some people just refuse to see it I guess. I have also stated that I can't see a valid solution to the problem without having a more negative effect on the game in general.

Addressing mode switching and the BGS.
One BGS for everyone, it keeps the costs down. Multiple BGS means an increased number of servers. Additionally it also means that there is a risk of developing different story lines which will be hard to manage and ultimately someone has to write that content. I don't think the game needs that.

Having one BGS and restricting mode switching. Also not a good idea. But lets ignore the fact that this would be removing functionality players bought for a second. For a new player, what player knows how they want to play? Say they chose solo then in a months time decide they want to play open? What about groups. Restricting mode switching will kill them. A new player has no concept of Mobius or any of the other group, they only learn about them from exploring the forum or talking to other cmdrs. Again, in 6 months a new player wants to join Mobius what happens? What about players who meet up with friends from time to time? Should they be forbidden from enjoying the game with friends because they can't switch?

It seems to me that there is a fear with open players that the solo players are banding together in secret to sabotage the BGS. But for every solo player doing X in solo, I’d bet there is another countering his actions. It all likely evens up in the end. I don’t see any unfairness at all to the current system. Everyone has exactly the same choices they are free to make.

In all honesty, I don’t care at all about the BGS. I fly from A to B and on to Z doing my thing. I’m an insignificant pilot in a large galaxy that doesn’t even know I exist. That’s what elite is. PP just fooled people into thinking they matter.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Emergent content is in-game activity (content) that comes about from a coordinated effort of players (as opposed to being generated or sponsored by the game and its creators).

It also depends on the person who is being asked and whether any examples given prove or disprove their particular point.

When i once tried to use EliteRacers as an example of emergent content, i was informed that it isn't emergent content.

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2, the forums do not require proof of purchase to make a new forum account - some folks take advantage of that to beat the dead horse some more

If people create a second account after being banned/suspended and don't take care, FD detect it as a duplicate and ban it.

 

[Khelder]

Hutton is an interesting example that may end up being unique because of the distance to the station. FD created the goal but Hutton Orbital radio, the convoys the facebook group etc. etc. was all "emergent" content provided by the players - from which the Hutton Truckers group appears to have been born.

So I'd say main event was "emergent content" that didn't require PVP. Sure it added a bit of potential spice (from my pov) but no actual content in the main for me on my 14 trips when I didn't meet a single player pirate. The fun was getting together - the radio stuff, chat, teamspeak meeting new players etc. etc.

The pirates turned out to be an "emergent" sideshow mostly as due to the instancing most people didn't even see them. It wasn't till the end of the event after we'd succeeded on the last run that I went looking for trouble (- with an empty hold) trying to aid someone on my friendslist - and found them.

Fine. Emergent content on both sides.

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When i once tried to use EliteRacers as an example of emergent content, i was informed that it isn't emergent content.

What?! Why on earth (and beyond) not?

 

[Jockey79]

But, yes, obviously not all emergent content requires PvP. But some will. Your example in Vendetta Online actually sounds like a good one. It technically required a PvP environment to make sense, but didn't require PvP from the participants.

Medics were also hired to go along on PvE missions to repair.
And of course, NPCs didn't respect the [EMS] tag

So it was a multipurpose style of play if you wanted it to be.
I only ever did PvE, despite spending lots of time in PvP areas (added bonus to the guild tag)
But it also means you have to be ready to repair others at a moments notice.

Almost like expecting a Fuel Rat to always have a spare tank and limpets on every ship they own.
While in VO that was the case, I don't think it would translate as well in to ED.

Though I would like to see remote repair options added to ED, be fun to see if the Rats become the ED version of the AA (and for our American friends, I do not mean Alcoholics Anonymous - in the UK there is a break down service cal the AA)

Be nice to see things like remote repairs, remote fuel, ammo supply, AFM ammo, replacement air tanks for life support. Imagine the Type 9 "Hospital Ship" that could be put together, or a cracking Type 7 or Python Support ship.

 

[DaveB]

Goodo. Well, guess the moderators (not you, obviously) can close this thread then.

The whole reason this thread exists is that the mods got tired of playing whack-a-mole closing multiple similar threads for just that reason. So instead they created a mega-thread into which all such things could be merged. It grew to the point that they had to create a second iteration of it. That second iteration grew to the point it needed a third one. That's this one.

They recognized that there would always be more folks posting and rehashing the same discussion so they created a place where such threads can go to die. Every thread that starts out as, or gets derailed into, a discussion on the merits of mode switching or questions of "balance" between the three matchmaking modes ends up here so that those of us who are tired of reading all the "debate" on a closed issue can avoid it.

 

[NickSick]

I havent played Elite for more than two months. At first I thought it were very strange being able to go solo with your "online" commander. I really wanted it to be separate commanders. But now I think the modes are fine. But I think the game is missing one mode. The hardcore-mode. This would be very easy to implement. Just give all CMDRs that havent still died, and not still played solo or group mode, exclusive right to a hard-core mode. Easy Peasy! What, in the current config of modes, would be the draw back of such a mode (group actually)?

//
Nick

 

[Robert Maynard]

I havent played Elite for more than two months. At first I thought it were very strange being able to go solo with your "online" commander. I really wanted it to be separate commanders. But now I think the modes are fine. But I think the game is missing one mode. The hardcore-mode. This would be very easy to implement. Just give all CMDRs that havent still died, and not still played solo or group mode, exclusive right to a hard-core mode. Easy Peasy! What, in the current config of modes, would be the draw back of such a mode (group actually)?

//
Nick

Expected drawbacks (in my opinion): small population; magnet for rammers / PKers.

 

[Sylveria]

I havent played Elite for more than two months. At first I thought it were very strange being able to go solo with your "online" commander. I really wanted it to be separate commanders. But now I think the modes are fine. But I think the game is missing one mode. The hardcore-mode. This would be very easy to implement. Just give all CMDRs that havent still died, and not still played solo or group mode, exclusive right to a hard-core mode. Easy Peasy! What, in the current config of modes, would be the draw back of such a mode (group actually)?

//
Nick

Actually- it doesn't need a separate "mode", FD can just implement when the CMDR dies if they have the little "hardcore" box checked when they created the pilot- that when they die they're forced to create a new pilot. Easy peasy, right? Great idea for more "immersion".

Expected drawbacks (in my opinion): small population; magnet for rammers / PKers.

According to those whom advocate for converging all the modes into Open this is already happening, and the barrel is getting smaller. Unintended consequences, methinks.

 

[Imperial Guard]

I wouldn't think of that as "griefing" as described - more of a mismatch of requirements.They wanted to blow him up - he didn't see any value in a 2 v 1 so opted out. Especially since shields stopped repairing in SC it makes serial interdictions more of a PITA. I used to have lots of fun with pirates with serial interdictions - made some friends that way - now the auto shield regen in SC has gone it's become stacked in their favour unless I strap on a ton of SCBs and that seems pointless. So from my point of view that change was entirely negative it turned interaction that was fun into interaction that became pointless which I now avoid by interdiction avoidance and/or high waking which also means fewer interactions for pirates. Yay FD! Of course what he could have done was high wake and lose them completely.

Yes exactly. It's very easy to escape in ED. You just HIGH wake to another system. Combat logging just griefs those who are attacking you genuinely.

 

[Imperial Guard]

The only times I have died in OPEN are down to my ow stupidity. Not disengaging, pushing a bad position and trying to low wake out instead of high waking cos I pushed the wrong button. Open play doesn't mean PVP it's means P and P. You can collaborate with anyone and by same token be attacked by anyone. But you exist. A lot of my forum contributions were done is solo mode so you will never be able to read them.....

 

[W0OCQCK]

I completely fail to see why the developer and publisher of the game has to justify any design decision to the userbase. There was a time and place for it, it was during the kickstarter, when they actually asked for people's faith in them without having a prodcut to show for. Now that Elite is released this whole matter goes into the category of "crying over spilt milk". Especially if all that information is disclosed beforehand and all it requires is the ability to understand written words. And I would also say this wording would mean that Frontier sees this as a problem, which they don't, as far as their contribution goes on this matter.

Seriously, this notion that the owner of the intellectual property has any kind of responsibility against the people buying the product in regards of decisions they make is pretty hillarious. Is this reserved for games only, or do people demand Microsoft to give a statement why Windows 8 had tiles and no start menu? And have them apologize?

I second that!

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Emergent content is in-game activity (content) that comes about from a coordinated effort of players (as opposed to being generated or sponsored by the game and its creators). The Hutton CG was an example of this. The FD provided content was the CG. A number of "pirate" groups decided to attempt a blockade of that event. The blockade - while it annoyed a whole bunch of people - was emergent content. Players got together on their own to do something that the game hadn't provided for them. You will note that this particular example of emergent content required PvP. But not all do.



Yep. Pretty sure I said that people don't seem to be interested.

If emergent content is annoying, why should we even want it in the Game?

 

[Roybe]

What my example that you quoted anyway was about risk vs reward. If you put minerals in a dangerous area and the same ones in a risk-free area, nobody will ever go into the dangerous area therefore the possibility of wing pvp, wings, cooperative play, finding other people and making friends, escorts and random events is totally removed.

and an Elite example, PowerPlay has a lot of potential but everything is squandered into a nPC farming simulator in solo, because open has a bad crime system nobody plays there and solo is so powerful.

**Wasted potential is the reason this thread exists, not because we want PvP or people to kill**

Did you ever think that is exactly what the devs desire? PvP is offered as a valid way to play. In one mode. Most will play the game as a PVE game and be quite happy to do so, since they can avoid the headache/heartache of PVP. Knowing that the vast majority of players in the population of the general gaming community prefer to avoid PVP..they have found a way to bite the apple twice..and make both populations 'happy enough' to keep playing!

There will be no capitulation on the devs side to this status...it is designed this way...so all that happens is this thread goes round and round between 'we want the game to be what it COULD be' and 'accept the devs design and play the game as it IS..because it's NOT changing'.

 

[Roybe]

Expected drawbacks (in my opinion): small population; magnet for rammers / PKers.

Gets them out of Open....solves two problems with one change! ;P

 

[Lex Looter]

How would the explorers like it if every time they jumped into a system to run an advanced scan, I turned all the planets and discoverable objects off to deny them the chance...

And how would you like it if an explorer could just harpoon your pew pew ship and tow you all the way to the center of the galaxy against your will?

I can totally see you thoroughly enjoying the trip, laughing with your new buddy every time he says:

Explorer: "Look, another black hole! Isn't that AMAZING?"

You: "Not really, no, it's boring as hell. I have no interest whatsoever in exploration but I'm glad we're having this meaningful interaction."

Explorer: "You've got it, man. We should reach Sagittarius in about a week, you'll see how cool it is."

You: "Well I'll be back to Rank 1 with my Power if we ever get back to civilization, but I'm SO grateful you're providing more content to me."

Of course you wouldn't be upset AT ALL that someone is dragging you by the collar into something you don't want to do - it's EMERGENT CONTENT, after all.