Out of reps, but +11111111111111111111111111
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Out of reps, but +11111111111111111111111111
Ok tell me why traders pick solo nearly every single time for easy grind yet come back to open with pvp ships just to kill people or whatever? So yeah, some people ARE afraid of open. Not all tho of course.
They like open but hate the risk factor for trading, rightfully so because the crime system sux - but that's only part of the problem.
quick question too;
Mouse how would you feel if they buffed the wing trade bonus in Open for people? Instead of the 5% bonus it was much higher?
This would let people play as escorts without feeling it's a waste of time and the traders who like to play open are happier? or is it unfair that open gets a buff?
It would be an open-only wing buff of course, or else 4 man trading wings would get a massive buff for no reason (The reason for the buff is to give incentive to escorts)
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Who are these traders you speak of? Don't tell me all the rufty tufty pirate PKers in Open are really making their combat cash in safe solo trade routes and uncontested RES? "Inconceivable!"
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Didnt Daffan himself admit to doing just that? (gearing up in solo then going to open) (really sorry if i am wrong) however it seems to me he has managed to do exactly what he wants stopped himself. Now he is alright it sounds to me like he want to stop others from doing it.
a bit double standards.
Personally I think doing that is a bit lame myself, and is not what i plan to do ever (which is not to say I never go in open - I just do not "level up" in solo with a view to ganking in open... but IF I did, that is a supported part of the game and would be fine.
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This argument always intrigues me, when you say 'Ok tell me why traders pick solo nearly every single time yet come back to open with pvp ships just to kill people or whatever?' what numbers, evidence, experience are you citing? For a lot of traders, they are simply that, traders, I very much doubt that a high number of largely PVE focused traders suddenly become PVP-a-holics just because they can afford a Python, or Anaconda. You are right regarding the crime system etc, of course you are, but, simply put, those, (and I question whether this is happening on any large scale or in large numbers), who are grinding solo to get a combat ship in open are PVP'ers anyway, to suggest traders are becoming PK'ers, PVP advocates and pirates in any significant numbers seems disingenuous to me. To say it is happening 'every single time' seems wildly wide of the mark too.
Ah don't worry, it's just Daffans mythical unicorn trader, who trades in solo to then go gank in open. It has been a recurring theme with him since release, I highly doubt he'll stop anytime soon. I just fail to see how someone that is a trader by wel.. trade, would suddenly turn into a PvP ganker. Those weeks of driving a T9 must really hone your combat skills I guess.
What you mean is you grinded in solo because you were afraid of open. Then you took your solo grinded ship into open to kill players
Daffan said:
If you can watch Netfix then there is no danger. Unless you want to watch a movie with your wing
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The thing for me, in Solo or Group I fly a defensive TraderConda. I am not an apex predator, I have neither the skills nor the appetite. So on the occasions I drop into Open to sample the atmosphere of a CG, in the back of my mind there is the thought of "There are more skillful, more focused combateers out here, who will send me back to an insurance screen for "reasons".
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I don't get a thrill from thinking "I will outsmart / outgun / outfly them!" I play for a while, checking every hollow point on the scanner and if it is a combat ship I react accordingly and change course / tack / system. None of that increases my enjoyment of the game. I have been playing since Freegle launch and am still only Competent in combat. So I do not sit in Solo growing my e-peen against the rufty tufty Open types. I plod along through the game slowly at my own pace and if a sidey or hauler or viper is daft enough to interdict me, I submit, vaporise them and get back to what I was doing.
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I don't play ED to be "better" than anyone or to compete agsint them; not even in CGs. I play it for my own definition of fun.
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I don't get a thrill from thinking "I will outsmart / outgun / outfly them!" I play for a while, checking every hollow point on the scanner and if it is a combat ship I react accordingly and change course / tack / system. None of that increases my enjoyment of the game. I have been playing since Freegle launch and am still only Competent in combat. So I do not sit in Solo growing my e-peen against the rufty tufty Open types. I plod along through the game slowly at my own pace and if a sidey or hauler or viper is daft enough to interdict me, I submit, vaporise them and get back to what I was doing.
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I don't play ED to be "better" than anyone or to compete agsint them; not even in CGs. I play it for my own definition of fun.
Whether it gives them the 'right' targets is possibly debatable depending on one's point of view, but irrespective of that, a separate open PvE mode WILL result in fewer targets for those PvPers. Even though those targets may well be willing targets, there will still be fewer targets than at present - which will either make them harder to find or all players will concentrate in a more finite area because they have to to get their PvP fix - for them to do otherwise would make having separate PvE and PvP modes fruitless. Which results in either the PvP mode being focused in a small region, or a mere shadow of what open is now (even the PvPers need to PvE at some point in order to progress). Now, as I'm not a fan of non-consensual PvP myself, I don't mind that so much, but I fail to see what further mode separation will achieve other than divide the community even more (ie like solo is now, the open PvE mode would be seen by some as easy mode and perpetuate the 'us and them' attitude many already have).
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The problem is not that open allows unrestricted PvP. The problem is that the mechanics of the game and consequences for particular crimes aren't in place to drive PvP into more logical situations and locations. That is, one should be able to anticipate and expect the likelihood of PvP with few consequences in anarchic space or a combat zone. Conversely, in policed space, PvP in the form of an unprovoked attack on a clean CMDR should bring with it severe consequences, such as being prohibited from docking at local faction stations, being actively hunted by security forces (the strength of which would scale with the perpetrator's bounty/criminal status), having to retreat to anarchic space to refit etc. As it stands now, every system might as well be anarchic given the pitifully inadequate consequences in place at present, which makes it harder for PvEers than it should be because either it can't be anticipated and won't be prepared for appropriately (eg by switching from a PvE configuration to a more PvP-suitable one), or it happens where it could reasonably be expected (eg a CG) but the lack of consequences are such that there's little to no risk for the PvPers (in particular those PvPers who insist on preying on traders). A separate open PvE mode isn't the answer though - meaningful and appropriately punishing consequences are.
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In the absence of those consequences though, I'd take a PvP flag before separating out a PvE mode.
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So far the only person who has ground trading solo then come back into open with PVP ships to kill people... has been you. You may find other admittance to that play style in the earlier mega threads, but it is rare. And the fact that you are complaining about the very same game play you engaged in is hilarious... your asking me to tell you why YOU did what you did.
You've ignored every single person who has stated in this thread (including Jockey and Robert) that they have and DO trade in open. If encounters were like with Jordan, I would be in open as well.. but he and those who are honorable like him.. are few and far between.. so I'm forced into PVP if encountered in open.. so I don't trade in open. Being "afraid" has nothing to flipping do with it. The fact that I CAN'T PVP does, I would much rather enjoy the game and play than to be stuck in a VA medical center because some jerk's decided I would be his entertainment. People play the game to have fun, not to be content for others. If people do not enjoy playing then they stop.. if people don't enjoy a certain play style they go to other modes.. which they have been doing.. your reaction "They are afraid of open." No, nada, sorry.. there is no fear there.. annoyance maybe.
Well I say nope I hate it.. why.. because it is open only.. the gist of the game has been and always will be .. equality.. all modes are equal.. changing one to make it more "attractive" breaks equality and makes that mode the "right" mode.. which the devs have repeated till they were blue in the face.. "There is no right mode."
You entire argument is a PVE open mode will mean less targets for PVPers, they will have to find other PVPrs and will not explore the universe looking for targets but stay in certain areas.. and that PVPers will see those of us in a PVE mode as seen as "easy" mode. Whoopee
My reply is... Good.. and why do I care of they think it is an "easy" mode. They have already demonstrated that they think nothing of us except as sheep for them to prey on. Why should I care that their own actions caused them such hardship? The community is already divided.. the PVErs were not the instigators of it.. personally I think it is karma.
I don't hate PVP and have tried to come up with ways to make it more interesting.. but if your whole argument is those who don't PVP to PVP but to dominate are upset that they no longer have targets... that is the point of Mobius, Solo, and hopefully a PVE mode.. and is their own dang fault.
While I agree with some of your recommendations and have even made a few very similar to them... The only way to get that would be for Fdev to write code that disables friendly fire in lawful territory and enables it in CZ's, Anarchy space, etc. Why do I say this.. because while I agree with your ideas, I have personal first hand knowledge to the length some will go to in lawful space in order to blow people up.. I've even posted how they could easily circumvent the very restrictions you and I have voiced to try to make Piracy more realistic. So the only true way to combat it.. they can't fire on any ship with a CMDR in it.
Pirates can still pirate and traders willing to role play can still drop cargo (and would be interesting to see some of these restrictions applied to dropped aka "stolen" cargo ) .. but no boom .
What about those who do not know about the Mobius group?
What about if Mobius quits playing?
There are people, who came to the forums - fed up of "PvPers" camping starter areas and were quitting in frustration and decided to leave a rant before leaving. Suddenly they get told there is a way to play without PvP and they have become great members of the Mobius Group, once they got themselves established they started helping others. Without being told they don't have to put up with the "PvPers", they'd have quit the game.
How many people do you think just quit? (Remember, only a small number of people ever use game forums) How many don't know you can PvE only if you want to and barely play due to PvP?
Putting an option in the game menu for all to see, would let people know that there is another option to play the game and not be forced out of the game.
And before anyone starts with Solo mode - this game is advertised as multiplayer and as Co-op as well.
So being able to play with others WITHOUT the constant threat of a person blowing you up should be in the main menu, not an ad-hoc group hidden away that depends on one person.
First, what you are describing isn't based on fear, but on efficiency. Some players that hate trading are nevertheless doing it because it's the single best way to amass credits, and since they don't like it they want to be done in as little time as possible, so they will do everything they can to eliminate anything that could slow them down, including contact with other players. Yeah, the balance between professions needs some tweaking, but that is not an issue with the modes.
Second, I have only heard about Open proponents doing trade in Solo with the explicit objective of financing PvP in Open. Yeah, there are players that play mainly in Solo that decide to give Open a try after they have enough credits to shrug off any loses, but for those people Open is a side dish, not the main course.
Anything that makes the difference between the modes more than just the matchmaking is a bad move, including increased open-only bonuses for wings. Besides, the kind of player that would game the system for increased bonuses is exactly the kind of player that would learn how to manipulate the matchmaking to only see his wing in Open, so without a change to the networking model this wouldn't be effective anyway.
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Very much this. If someone has little enough empathy to attack me without first making sure I want to play along, well, I don't want that person in my game, ever. Not even as an ally. If enough people think like me that he is out of targets, tough luck; no one should ever be allowed to force others into being unwilling content.
It's nice that you are concerned that PvPers will have fewer 'targets', but seriously, who goes into playing a game voluntarily as a target? I really don't believe there are many.
As others have said, mode separation, in this case an Open PvE mode would actually simplify things considerably, you either wish to play the game PvP, PvE or Solo, and you will meet other CMDRs in the first two options who share your gameplay preferences, and if you so wish be able to group up and make friends with them.
As Jockey points out, not everybody comes on the forums, not everybody knows about Mobius, not everybody realizes they can be shot and destroyed for no reason, so an official PvE group will probably give them a much more pleasant introduction to playing with others. To suggest such a mode would be a bad thing seems like something only a PvPer who wants to shoot unarmed traders would do, which you are by your own statement not.
Regarding 'easy mode'. Meh, that's just children calling out names and says much more about the person saying it than it does about the people they are accusing.
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Yes, elements of the crime system in the game are somewhat flakey, but the issue here is that FD want the game to have a strong and significant criminal side to it. You only need look at the PvE side of things to see this where missions to smuggle, steal and assassinate are commonplace, often in the majority. Putting in harsh punishments for such activity would be counter to their vision of how the game can be played, so I suspect it's unlikely that there will ever be a truly harsh punishment for killing. After all, the most prized status to get in the game is (arguably) Elite in combat, and you have to blow up an awful lot of ships to achieve that.
I'm ambivalent where impacts on PvPers are concerned. However, the problem isn't PvPers in general - it's that subset who delight in wanton destruction because they can, who insist on ganking noobs or unarmed traders and the like, who delight in getting their own jollies from ruining the days of others. Genuine PvPers want a fair fight - what these other types want is not PvP in my opinion, and never will be. But why 'punish' the genuine PvPers at the same time for the actions of a few?
There will always be those who try to circumvent rules. The idea is to make their life more uncomfortable and inconvenient for doing so - much like playing classical music in a shopping mall to discourage hoons. Make it inconvenient by preventing their ability to dock (say, in Fed space) once they've attained a certain level of bounty. Ensure that they're increasingly interdicted by authority and bounty hunter ships that scale in difficulty as their bounty increases (provides greater challenge for them, and keeps them occupied instead of attacking clean CMDRs or NPCs, and they woud need to move to anarchic space for respite).
True, the thresholds for a 'punishment' like blocking the ability to dock, for example, would need to balanced to allow for certain mission types, but that could also be treated quite separately. Destroying a fellow CMDR is an act against a fellow member of the Pilot's Federation, so appropriate punishments could (and probably should) arise from that (ie as a contravention of the code of conduct, which we don't have but it would be reasonable to suggest that such a group would have as a condition of membership).
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Elite rating in combat is not reliant on committing criminal acts to get kills though.
You do realize that you shot your own argument in the foot? Genuine PVPers who want a fair fight WON'T be targeting PVErs so separate modes is not punishing them because the targets they are looking for are still in the mode they are in. And if there are separate modes if they come upon someone they will know, this is a PVPer who wants an encounter, because that is why they are in this mode.
Again, I agree with you, as I said I proposed similar rules to what you are proposing. The sad thing is, while they would make the game more fun and challenging for those who want to RP as criminal. And they may deter someone who casually thinks of acting a certain way. For those that want to just blow people up they are about as effective as using classical music to discourage hoodlums... as in not very.
Yes, that's all true, although I don't think it will happen...
I'm not saying what you are proposing is wrong, but just to think of one possibly unintended consequence of making clean player killing a serious crime. In my view, piracy then becomes even less fun for a PvP pirate than it is now as the pirate and trader both know that killing is punished so harshly as to be unusable as a final resort. Trader just laughs at pirate and flies away... Maybe some hardy souls would continue to try and PvP pirate, but bearing in mind it's just a game, in the same way as no trader (IMO) seeks to be a victim / target for the long haul, surely not many players want to be fugitives to the lengths required to stop PKers as part of genuine gameplay.
I don't know, I'm not a pirate, but I imagine that FD have had many discussions about what to do regarding PKing, and it would seem that at least for now, their answer is to provide ways for players to avoid it if they wish, rather than try to punish it out of the game.
And yes, of course you are correct, you never need to do anything criminal to gain Elite ranking. I was more making the point that shooting things seems to be a pretty central aspect to the game.
destroying cargo bay door on the smaller ships should mean you lose ALL cargo. That combinded with repair costs would mean if done properly, a pirate can get their spoils and still make a stubborn trader regret not giving in to demands, without blowing them up.
bigger ships like the anaconda were meant to take some insane punishment with you able to rip their guts out spilling cargo without them blowing up.
there are lots of ways to make piracy viable whilst still making murder of a clean player distasteful
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