Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Part the Second [Now With Added Platforms].
- Thread starter Robert Maynard
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I am still waiting for someone to tell us why they think they should have both. You say that most of the time Open is more rewarding because of the player interaction. By that you imply that for some of the time it isn't. The question is simple: Why do you still play Open during those times when Open isn't more rewarding?
This is like someone sleeping in their garden because they enjoy being in the open air but complaining that they get wet when it rains. Yet they refuse to go inside where it's dry during those times.
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I guess we finally wore the old merry-go-round out eh? 
And so far most of the changes was cause few open players asked(could say whined but i feel good today)
Particularly on the forum. Even more so on this thread. In fact I believe Jockey posted up a handy table on the top 20 or 30 posters or so. Have a check how many are solo/group posters
In fact I would love to post Jockey's table again. If anyone has issues with their status I can correct it:
View attachment 36576
I have already made an error Nedaalex is open.
Asp Explorer is not Solo/Group - he is <Router Fiddling>
Woah there chap. I play open - all the time.
Snakebite
Banned
Well I cant speak for everyone, but as a bounty hunter a defenseless target is most definitely not what i seek in a game, I want a target that is fun and challenging to engage. I find that endlessly grinding NPC pirates in a RES makes for pretty dull gameplay..... I want pirates who are unpredictable, adaptable and therefore a fun challenge. The only to to acheive that is if the pirate ships are player controlled. Thats why i've waited 30 years for a multiplayer elite....
the problem isnt the modes for that..
I love the whole;
This is an MMO, so I should see lots of people and be able to interact with lots of people.
As soon as they see someone it turns to;
People get in the way of my earnings, give me more money.
(they really don't see the irony of this)
Part of the "fun challenge" that multiplayer gives you is more competition. More players to compete against gives you more of a challenge. The result of that competition means a potentially slower gain. That's working as intended. If it's made easier then it isn't a challenge.
I am not a network guru, I'm just a hardware guy who does mainframe stuff. Oh - and that router is positively cheap compared to mainframe kit
I'm quite aware. In a previous job I worked with a "cheap" mainframe from SGI, one whose main function was to allow engineers to explore a virtual, fully assembled airplane, one that was still in its conceptual phase, in a beyond 4K resolution screen larger than many cinemas, so they could find assembly and maintenance issues without having to build prototypes. And by fully assembled I really mean that, it could load every last fastener and piece of cabling. While it was a bargain, in that it saved far more in prototype costs and engineering hours than it cost, the full cost of that solution was still a seven figures number.
That doesn't sound impressive nowadays, I know. But you can bet it was mighty impressive two decades ago
. Incidentally, back then I used at work a head mounted display better than the Rift (though far heavier).
I have very slow reactions thanks to a neurological condition. This means that I will almost always lose against a human. That means that I will find being attacked by other players dull and boring. I would not play Elite if open was the only way.
What is fun to you may not be fun to other people. That's why separate modes are needed.
Cheers, Phos.
NPC interruptions are an intrinsic part of the game, and typically where the fun resides. They are also carefully tuned by the devs, in both frequency and difficulty, to bring the greatest amount of enjoyment (or should be in any competently designed game), and are guaranteed to not have any malice or ill-will as the motivation. Completely different from player interruptions — and, given that you push hard to make finding and fighting other players more common, I take it that you agree that fighting another player is very different from fighting a NPC, otherwise you would be happy fighting only NPCs
In a game, devs don't exactly give rewards for taking risks; they give rewards for doing the things they intend the players to do. Which is why the most risky activities often are worse for earning rewards than safer ones; the devs (or, at least, smart devs) don't want to push common players into attempting things that are riskier than those players can comfortably handle, as that could push those players away from the game, and those that play for the risk will do that content anyway even if the only "reward" is bragging rights (and, nowadays, an achievement).
As a real world, and widespread, example, computer RPGs are typically tuned to make fighting opponents of the player's own level, or slightly above, the most effective way of earning rewards; fighting enemies much above the player's level is far riskier but gives far less rewards for the time spent in combat. This is because the devs feel that the most enjoyable way to play is to face opponents of similar level, so those are the ones that will allow the player to progress faster.
Neither is taking risks per see rewarded in the real world; it only looks that way because any activity that has too high risks for its rewards gets shunned and forgotten, so the ones that remain tend to conform to a scale of how much risk people will accept for a certain reward. And people are always working hard to reduce the risk of any such activity, to the point I can do nowadays in perfect safety things that at the time of my grandparents would have been so risky they would be unthinkable.
With CGs, and the way it interacts with the modes, there's an added complicator: PvP. As MMO devs found out a long time ago, a fair part of the player base is adverse to PvP, so having the most effective way of earning rewards or affecting the game world be one that has a chance of PvP is a guaranteed way to make the game far less enjoyable for many of the PvP-adverse players. And, to make things worse, whether players will meet others in open is quite hit-and-miss thanks to the game's network architecture, so any solution to the perceived disparity between modes that just dumbly increases rewards for merely being in a given mode will result in the players that have connection issues (and those that intentionally cause them) getting both whatever benefits solo intrinsically together with whichever bonus is added for playing in open, creating as much imbalance as it sought to avoid.
It's part of why I keep saying that any fix needs to be done to the underlying mechanics, and applied equally to all modes. That is so a player in open, but suffering from connection issues that block every other player, won't have any noteworthy advantage over either a solo player or over an open player that is not having connection issues. An answer that fixes the underlying causes of the disparity by making the game mechanics more balanced and elegant, rather than simply offering bonuses to offset those, is less prone to irritate players that could see their own mode as being singled out for nerfs and far more likely to resist attempts at exploiting or cheating.
Not sure, he just disappeared.
Sorry was past my bedtime mate. Are you familiar with the term, "Self limiting beliefs"? Are you familiar with the term "Group think"? Another way of putting it would be to say many PVP'er types are very set in there ways, and like thinking, not all, I'm not, but many many are. In other words so many players have gotten use to a certain format of how things should be, and when there not that way, it's hard to bring themselves to explore new things, new ways of doing things, new approaches, etc.
I remember "David Braben" saying this game is all about the individual players adventure, the individual experience. He is very animate about not having any single play style overriding any other. Don't take my word go watch the videos yourselves. He also despises greifers. All you have to do is watch him speak in many or his videos. His demeanor totally changes to a look of disgust. All though I agree the term greifer is use much too much. The view is anyone that kills in open is a greifer, and open is the anything goes mode. Not saying it is the dead zone, and the root of everything evil. But the fact is, it is the anything goes mode.
Ok the new thing, the way the game has been layout with (3) modes, and your privilege to go between them at will. I believe the game was designed specifically for everyone to regularly play all (3) modes, not to lock themselves in just one. I see playing in open all the time as a bit of a bravado thing for many players. OK no problem with that. But when these player in search of something more meaningful in a specific mode, (any mode) is trying to change the foundation of the game to suit there specific want's and needs. This is simply in the most part just simple resistance to the new format, focused on the adventure and journey of the individual player.
Everyone in my opinion should be playing all the modes as they feel the need on a regular basis. Ignoring this design and privilege is ultimately nerfing your selves by your own decision. Everyone needs to take a little accountable here.
There is nothing wrong with living in a single mode. Everyone just needs to accept the good with the bad of each one of them. If you can't stand the down side of the one you have selected, level yourselves in one of the other modes then return to your favorite.
The game isn't perfect by any means, but it's still pretty cool. I really don't see any reason why all of us can't have 80-90 percent of everything we all want. But is will never be 100%. Why? there are people on the opposite side of the fence that want things too. You need to accept this simple fact, I do why can't you? Yes in solo the NPC are dumb, yes open is very dangerous. Group is safest of all, you can fly around with a bunch of your close buddies and guess what? The npc are still dumb. So what? Get over it, play the damn game.
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After 4 months of playing this game, and after reading many comments all over the web on ED, i really think the real problem here is the balance between the real challenge or risk given in the game and the power we have on the universe. To be clear, how can a more risky mode like open play have the same rewards as Group or Solo? Life is about choices and more importantly this is a question of justice not equality. Let me explain...
Firstly when i begun playing this game, I decide to be a bounty hunter but i didn't know how to make a difference between a player and an NPC so every ship i saw was a challenge. Once i "knew" it, all became easy, too easy: NPCs were weaker, Players were the real challenge. Even fighting with an elite NPC wasn't that challenging for me ( me in a viper, NPCs in a python and i won). If there is a problem, this is the first one : The balance of the AI.
Secondly, about our power on the universe, i think with powerplay we will have a bigger problem and community goal was just an example of it: The world knows that if you play in SOLO you will have less problems than if you play in OPEN, and this with the same effect of your actions on the game background. I can't keep myself thinking that there is a problem here.
For me these two points are exactly what this debate is all about, and from these two points will come the solutions.
So for the solutions that i am thinking about, these two are already all over this forum and i don't understand why frontier is hesitating so much, and used simultaneously, IMO they can solve the problem.
- First one: they have to make the AI more challenging. How you ask? There are so many ways: the uses of modules like any play players, the way they defend or the attack... And the most important is a real difference between the NPC class. We have to feel that, when for example you encounter an ELITE NPC, the FEAR or something similar, something that make you think that "here i can lose" something that shows your real primitive instincts. If Frontier nerf a bit the AI of ALL THE MODES ( I REPEAT ALL THE MODES, OPEN SOLO OR PRIVATE), i think the difference between the mode will collapse a little bit, and every CMDR will understand the meaning of the word "DANGEROUS" in ED.
- Second one: The rewards! You want some challenges and interactions with the whole word of ED, NPCs and Players, Open is for you. If you want to enjoy the game without all the griefers, without people who just want to ruin your pleasure, and simply enjoy what the game has for you, SOLO is for you. THAT is the actual system of choices, but if people can make that kind of choices, they have to understand these choices have consequences.
So if You want OPEN, you have to understand, that mode is a real jungle: there are griefers and all the package. It will be fun for sure and more risky, but your actions will have full effect on the background.
So if you want to play SOLO OR PRIVATE, because YOU choose security and a more peacefull way to play the game over JUNGLE MODE, you have to understand that your actions will have a less impact on the background.
To finish, what i had in mind when saying all of that was this image: We are actually in a situation of equality and what we need in this game is justice.
So that's all! Sorry for my bad english, that language is sometimes really hard for a french boy
Keep it up Frontier! Hope this OPEN/SOLO will be over soon.
Firstly when i begun playing this game, I decide to be a bounty hunter but i didn't know how to make a difference between a player and an NPC so every ship i saw was a challenge. Once i "knew" it, all became easy, too easy: NPCs were weaker, Players were the real challenge. Even fighting with an elite NPC wasn't that challenging for me ( me in a viper, NPCs in a python and i won). If there is a problem, this is the first one : The balance of the AI.
Secondly, about our power on the universe, i think with powerplay we will have a bigger problem and community goal was just an example of it: The world knows that if you play in SOLO you will have less problems than if you play in OPEN, and this with the same effect of your actions on the game background. I can't keep myself thinking that there is a problem here.
For me these two points are exactly what this debate is all about, and from these two points will come the solutions.
So for the solutions that i am thinking about, these two are already all over this forum and i don't understand why frontier is hesitating so much, and used simultaneously, IMO they can solve the problem.
- First one: they have to make the AI more challenging. How you ask? There are so many ways: the uses of modules like any play players, the way they defend or the attack... And the most important is a real difference between the NPC class. We have to feel that, when for example you encounter an ELITE NPC, the FEAR or something similar, something that make you think that "here i can lose" something that shows your real primitive instincts. If Frontier nerf a bit the AI of ALL THE MODES ( I REPEAT ALL THE MODES, OPEN SOLO OR PRIVATE), i think the difference between the mode will collapse a little bit, and every CMDR will understand the meaning of the word "DANGEROUS" in ED.
- Second one: The rewards! You want some challenges and interactions with the whole word of ED, NPCs and Players, Open is for you. If you want to enjoy the game without all the griefers, without people who just want to ruin your pleasure, and simply enjoy what the game has for you, SOLO is for you. THAT is the actual system of choices, but if people can make that kind of choices, they have to understand these choices have consequences.
So if You want OPEN, you have to understand, that mode is a real jungle: there are griefers and all the package. It will be fun for sure and more risky, but your actions will have full effect on the background.
So if you want to play SOLO OR PRIVATE, because YOU choose security and a more peacefull way to play the game over JUNGLE MODE, you have to understand that your actions will have a less impact on the background.
To finish, what i had in mind when saying all of that was this image: We are actually in a situation of equality and what we need in this game is justice.
So that's all! Sorry for my bad english, that language is sometimes really hard for a french boy
Keep it up Frontier! Hope this OPEN/SOLO will be over soon.
Will be over when the whiners stops whine ...
@Guiguips Butler: Where your argument falls apart is when you say that open mode is harder. It can be harder, it can be no diffrence to Solo/Group or even be easier depending on the circumstances (What Ship you have, when you play, where you play and so on).
I said this once, but how difficult Elite is depends on many diffrent factors and over most of them you as the player have a lot control. Even playing in open, how hard playing in open will be depends a lot on you.
Rushing in to Lave or whatever and then complaining about "its too damn hard and unfair!" is... well, you really asked for it by going to lave in open. If you think its too damn hard and unfair in this area, don't go there.
Hell, even as a solo only player I have never been there because all that traffic from players from all Modes makes it an awful place to be for me. And thats allright.
I said this once, but how difficult Elite is depends on many diffrent factors and over most of them you as the player have a lot control. Even playing in open, how hard playing in open will be depends a lot on you.
Rushing in to Lave or whatever and then complaining about "its too damn hard and unfair!" is... well, you really asked for it by going to lave in open. If you think its too damn hard and unfair in this area, don't go there.
Hell, even as a solo only player I have never been there because all that traffic from players from all Modes makes it an awful place to be for me. And thats allright.
After 4 months of playing this game, and after reading many comments all over the web on ED, i really think the real problem here is the balance between the real challenge or risk given in the game and the power we have on the universe. To be clear, how can a more risky mode like open play have the same rewards as Group or Solo? Life is about choices and more importantly this is a question of justice not equality. Let me explain...
Firstly when i begun playing this game, I decide to be a bounty hunter but i didn't know how to make a difference between a player and an NPC so every ship i saw was a challenge. Once i "knew" it, all became easy, too easy: NPCs were weaker, Players were the real challenge. Even fighting with an elite NPC wasn't that challenging for me ( me in a viper, NPCs in a python and i won). If there is a problem, this is the first one : The balance of the AI.
Secondly, about our power on the universe, i think with powerplay we will have a bigger problem and community goal was just an example of it: The world knows that if you play in SOLO you will have less problems than if you play in OPEN, and this with the same effect of your actions on the game background. I can't keep myself thinking that there is a problem here.
For me these two points are exactly what this debate is all about, and from these two points will come the solutions.
So for the solutions that i am thinking about, these two are already all over this forum and i don't understand why frontier is hesitating so much, and used simultaneously, IMO they can solve the problem.
- First one: they have to make the AI more challenging. How you ask? There are so many ways: the uses of modules like any play players, the way they defend or the attack... And the most important is a real difference between the NPC class. We have to feel that, when for example you encounter an ELITE NPC, the FEAR or something similar, something that make you think that "here i can lose" something that shows your real primitive instincts. If Frontier nerf a bit the AI of ALL THE MODES ( I REPEAT ALL THE MODES, OPEN SOLO OR PRIVATE), i think the difference between the mode will collapse a little bit, and every CMDR will understand the meaning of the word "DANGEROUS" in ED.
- Second one: The rewards! You want some challenges and interactions with the whole word of ED, NPCs and Players, Open is for you. If you want to enjoy the game without all the griefers, without people who just want to ruin your pleasure, and simply enjoy what the game has for you, SOLO is for you. THAT is the actual system of choices, but if people can make that kind of choices, they have to understand these choices have consequences.
So if You want OPEN, you have to understand, that mode is a real jungle: there are griefers and all the package. It will be fun for sure and more risky, but your actions will have full effect on the background.
So if you want to play SOLO OR PRIVATE, because YOU choose security and a more peacefull way to play the game over JUNGLE MODE, you have to understand that your actions will have a less impact on the background.
To finish, what i had in mind when saying all of that was this image: We are actually in a situation of equality and what we need in this game is justice.
View attachment 36702
So that's all! Sorry for my bad english, that language is sometimes really hard for a french boy
Keep it up Frontier! Hope this OPEN/SOLO will be over soon.
Ya know if FD ever did remove Solo or Group, I would be completely within my rights to ask for a full refund, and most likely would. That's just me talking. Although my limited experience with the interviews with DB leaves me believing it will never happen.
Upping the anti in making the npc's stronger and varried, I think is a good idea, but it needs to be implemented across all (3) modes. As far as the CG's go ya can have em. I don't need or want anything to do with them, but I'm sure others will disagree.
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open play play
my opinion is that open play should be more rewarded, in the current game its way easier/better for credits to be a mobius player than a regular elite player thats for sure
but I doubt anythings going to change, but still I think that there should maybe be a way to lock my commander to OPEN (like IRONMAN mode or somesuch) and then get a bonus for it, of course with the corresponding negative of not being able to go into solo/private
I mean grinding war bonds in solo or RES sites is easy and you never have to compete, I know this because I done it, wings just mean you have to split bounties so they're kinda wasteful
PLUS the so called advantage of just being around other people doesn't exist, barely anyone says hi in open unless its saying hi with lasers
my opinion is that open play should be more rewarded, in the current game its way easier/better for credits to be a mobius player than a regular elite player thats for sure
but I doubt anythings going to change, but still I think that there should maybe be a way to lock my commander to OPEN (like IRONMAN mode or somesuch) and then get a bonus for it, of course with the corresponding negative of not being able to go into solo/private
I mean grinding war bonds in solo or RES sites is easy and you never have to compete, I know this because I done it, wings just mean you have to split bounties so they're kinda wasteful
PLUS the so called advantage of just being around other people doesn't exist, barely anyone says hi in open unless its saying hi with lasers
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Hi, Iron man mode was mentioned in DDA IIRC, I would think we will get it at some point.
Not sure if you have seen this thread, whilst it is about open PVE I am pretty sure "locked open" was discussed too, I think Ironman came up as well at some point. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=131730
Some were against it (an Open PVE option in the start menu) as they think it would fragment open further which I think it would, I think many people not aware of Mobius type groups seeing it in the menu might give it a go, a locked mode would permanently fragment it though.
The only problem I see with a "locked open mode" is not enough traders will pick it and there will be a lot of people asking to be transferred back to normal open within weeks, if not days due to no targets.
The problem with the PVE mode, again only relates to people "hunting" in open as people who do not want to be targets seeing this option in the menu might pick it, so less targets.
I have no problem if FD wish to implement both Open PVE & Locked Open as additions to the options we have, even if they run the Open PVE group on an honour system like Mobius I think it could work quite well, I can't see locked open doing so well, but that's just my opinion.
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