Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Part the Second [Now With Added Platforms].

[Mercy Killing]

Right. Let's address the fallacy that the rewards in open are lesser than those in group or solo.

1) When you kill an NPC that is in a certain type of ship, you get a reward. Said reward may even scale upon the enemy rating as well. So, for the sake of argument, we will say that killing a Master rated Cobra while playing in solo, (in a RES, Nav Beacon or anywhere else) you get 15000. (I know this is inaccurate. Bear with me.)

When you kill that same NPC in open...what do you get? Right. 15000. Why? Because this is the way the game works.


Now....when in open, you will occasionally encounter players with bounties. Bounties much higher than any NPC can get when in solo mode. Moreso...you will NEVER encounter an NPC ship that has a bounty that is as high as a player's bounty can get. Thus, rewards in open far outweigh those in solo or group.

I can wait while you mull this over and even test it out for yourselves. I'm 95% certain I'm correct, however.

 

[Distance]

Right. Let's address the fallacy that the rewards in open are lesser than those in group or solo.

1) When you kill an NPC that is in a certain type of ship, you get a reward. Said reward may even scale upon the enemy rating as well. So, for the sake of argument, we will say that killing a Master rated Cobra while playing in solo, (in a RES, Nav Beacon or anywhere else) you get 15000. (I know this is inaccurate. Bear with me.)

When you kill that same NPC in open...what do you get? Right. 15000. Why? Because this is the way the game works.


Now....when in open, you will occasionally encounter players with bounties. Bounties much higher than any NPC can get when in solo mode. Moreso...you will NEVER encounter an NPC ship that has a bounty that is as high as a player's bounty can get. Thus, rewards in open far outweigh those in solo or group.

I can wait while you mull this over and even test it out for yourselves. I'm 95% certain I'm correct, however.

You'll never kill a player in open with a high bounty due to high wake jumps unless he wants to be killed.

Whilst trying to kill an npc or player in open there's more chance of death through friendly fire or higher player skill.

NPC's aren't equipped the same as open players.

Go watch my video to see the difference between an npc and a player pirate

 

[Jockey79]

...Whilst trying to kill an npc or player in open there's more chance of death through friendly fire or higher player skill.

But you play open because there are other humans there - so you accept the fact, other people suck. They distract you, they take up your time, they take up your resources and they get in your way - but YOU picked Open anyway, despite knowing how other people will effect your game session.

NPC's aren't equipped the same as open players......

Nope, sometimes they are better and sometimes they are thick. Either way, they are there to provide entertainment to players who do not want PvP.
People who want PvP all the time, don't want NPCs they can relate to.

 

[Distance]

But you play open because there are other humans there - so you accept the fact, other people suck. They distract you, they take up your time, they take up your resources and they get in your way - but YOU picked Open anyway, despite knowing how other people will effect your game session.

Nope, sometimes they are better and sometimes they are thick. Either way, they are there to provide entertainment to players who do not want PvP.
People who want PvP all the time, don't want NPCs they can relate to.

My first quote was addressing Mercy Killing about the differences so you've taken it out of context.

Regarding npcs they should be buffed for both modes and adhere to the current meta. You guys keep saying Solo isn't easy mode right?

 

[Mercy Killing]

You'll never kill a player in open with a high bounty due to high wake jumps unless he wants to be killed.

Whilst trying to kill an npc or player in open there's more chance of death through friendly fire or higher player skill.

NPC's aren't equipped the same as open players.

Go watch my video to see the difference between an npc and a player pirate

Much like a neutered dog, you're just not getting it.

The rewards are identical for open and solo. Players have higher bounties, therefore higher rewards. Challenge is not part of the equation. An NPC kill is the same in open as it is in solo, given that the ship types and difficulty rating are also the same. An elite sidewinder in solo nets the same reward as it does in open.

No imbalance in rewards. Just because there are other players competing for those same rewards is irrelevant to the debate.

To quote Tyler Durden, "Listen up, maggots. You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else."

 

[Distance]

Just because there are other players competing for those same rewards is irrelevant to the debate.

Well you referred to me as a neutered dog, classy . . .

You're saying the thing that most open players think is relevant to the debate is irrelevant to the debate . . .

In cgs it's easier to kill npcs because there are no players around hence the imbalance.

 

[Mercy Killing]

Well you referred to me as a neutered dog, classy . . .

You're saying the thing that most open players think is relevant to the debate is irrelevant to the debate . . .

In cgs it's easier to kill npcs because there are no players around hence the imbalance.

I wouldn't expect you to get the reference. It's a Foghorn Leghorn quote, no malice intended. I say..intended.

Yes. Most open players are incorrect in assuming it is relevant to the debate, because the initial premise that "there are other players competing for the same reward, therefore it needs to be higher/is more difficult" is complete balderdash.

You do not have any greater or lesser difficulty in killing that NPC, whether you are in solo or open. It takes the exact same amount of damage to bring down the shields. Ditto reducing hull to zero. NPC's do not automagically get more HP to shields or hull just because they are in open. There IS no imbalance currently. What most open players are clamoring for is to CREATE the imbalance by rewarding more for killing that elite sidewinder in open than in solo.

The only difference is that in open, there might be players present to compete for that ship..which is the reason why most people in open CHOOSE open, unless I'm greatly mistaken. That is an artificial difficulty at best, and there's no guarantee you're going to be in an instance with another player. Do you still deserve those "increased rewards" just for playing in open? I think not.

Also note, that if someone comes along and provides actual proof that indeed, killing an NPC in solo nets more reward than killing one in open, then I willfully admit I am mistaken in this assumption. I say assumption because I don't play open.

Also, it might be easier for you to kill NPC's, but it isn't for me. You're saying I should be screwed out of the same rewards as everyone else because I'm getting older and am not as fast as I once was? Hells Bells, son...I should be getting MORE by your logic because it's harder for me. Instead, I have to settle for the same as everyone else playing the game.

 

[W0OCQCK]

I wouldn't expect you to get the reference. It's a Foghorn Leghorn quote, no malice intended. I say..intended.

Yes. Most open players are incorrect in assuming it is relevant to the debate, because the initial premise that "there are other players competing for the same reward, therefore it needs to be higher/is more difficult" is complete balderdash.

You do not have any greater or lesser difficulty in killing that NPC, whether you are in solo or open. It takes the exact same amount of damage to bring down the shields. Ditto reducing hull to zero. NPC's do not automagically get more HP to shields or hull just because they are in open. There IS no imbalance currently. What most open players are clamoring for is to CREATE the imbalance by rewarding more for killing that elite sidewinder in open than in solo.

The only difference is that in open, there might be players present to compete for that ship..which is the reason why most people in open CHOOSE open, unless I'm greatly mistaken. That is an artificial difficulty at best, and there's no guarantee you're going to be in an instance with another player. Do you still deserve those "increased rewards" just for playing in open? I think not.

Also note, that if someone comes along and provides actual proof that indeed, killing an NPC in solo nets more reward than killing one in open, then I willfully admit I am mistaken in this assumption. I say assumption because I don't play open.

Also, it might be easier for you to kill NPC's, but it isn't for me. You're saying I should be screwed out of the same rewards as everyone else because I'm getting older and am not as fast as I once was? Hells Bells, son...I should be getting MORE by your logic because it's harder for me. Instead, I have to settle for the same as everyone else playing the game.

I love Looney Toons. I think Mercy was jesting mate.

OK, I'll bite. So, "Distance" FD buffs open income and CG's. What should we do if folks don't start flocking to open? What then?

 

[Distance]

Ok fair play on the ref

That's the thing you're basing it on a simple "kill npc" rule which is irrelevant in places like conflict zones.

On your standard "kill in res cg" maybe but in any war cg it's different. If you're trying to fight for your side and a wing of enemy cmdrs drops in it's a different situation. Those cmdrs also net the same as an npc which also means the game doesn't scale the reward. A player is working harder to kill another player than they are to kill an npc (most of the time) but yet they get the same reward.

If the game made a copy of any player ships in open and dropped them in solo in the equivalent cz piloted by an npc with equivalent skill then it would scale a bit better.

The combat rating tag also means nothing in open. I'll happily take on a player with an Elite Anaconda dependent on it's subsystems. Most of the pvp pirates have low skill rankings but only because they didn't kill 1000 npcs in an asteroid field.

Age and skill are also a moot point. I believe players should be rewarded for skill regardless of age. I believe it's unfair to give everyone a free lolly pop because everyone took part.

You should be free to play your way in solo but when it comes to cg's why should players have an advantage for going to solo? Also, if you're happy in solo and never intend to leave why would you be bothered about players in open? Under Demiga's ideas in the sticky you still get your financial rewards the same as open players and you still contribute.

 

[W0OCQCK]

Ok fair play on the ref

That's the thing you're basing it on a simple "kill npc" rule which is irrelevant in places like conflict zones.

On your standard "kill in res cg" maybe but in any war cg it's different. If you're trying to fight for your side and a wing of enemy cmdrs drops in it's a different situation. Those cmdrs also net the same as an npc which also means the game doesn't scale the reward. A player is working harder to kill another player than they are to kill an npc (most of the time) but yet they get the same reward.

If the game made a copy of any player ships in open and dropped them in solo in the equivalent cz piloted by an npc with equivalent skill then it would scale a bit better.

The combat rating tag also means nothing in open. I'll happily take on a player with an Elite Anaconda dependent on it's subsystems. Most of the pvp pirates have low skill rankings but only because they didn't kill 1000 npcs in an asteroid field.

Age and skill are also a moot point. I believe players should be rewarded for skill regardless of age. I believe it's unfair to give everyone a free lolly pop because everyone took part.

You should be free to play your way in solo but when it comes to cg's why should players have an advantage for going to solo? Also, if you're happy in solo and never intend to leave why would you be bothered about players in open? Under Demiga's ideas in the sticky you still get your financial rewards the same as open players and you still contribute.

The thing with the NPC's, never gonna happen.

That last chapter, not to moronish, I could probably live with it, IF it shuts you guys up. I would like to experience planetary landings and the FPS before I'm dead eh.

 

[Distance]

The thing with the NPC's, never gonna happen.

That last chapter, not to moronish, I could probably live with it, IF it shuts you guys up. I would like to experience planetary landings and the FPS before I'm dead eh.

I agree the chances of that happening are nil but if it did happen I'm sure there would be an out cry from some players at the game suddenly dropping massively difficult npcs at them

BTW, check out my video in the other thread :

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=145482

These are the kinds of pirates players are facing in trading CGs.

Do you think FD should make npc pirates more like that to make the modes equal?

 

[W0OCQCK]

I agree the chances of that happening are nil but if it did happen I'm sure there would be an out cry from some players at the game suddenly dropping massively difficult npcs at them

BTW, check out my video in the other thread :

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=145482

These are the kinds of pirates players are facing in trading CGs.

Do you think FD should make npc pirates more like that to make the modes equal?

Not in to watching videos unless it's "Mission to Mars", my movie night, been looking forward to it all week. Everyone have a nice night.

 

[Mercy Killing]

Ok fair play on the ref

That's the thing you're basing it on a simple "kill npc" rule which is irrelevant in places like conflict zones. What makes killing an NPC in a conflict zone in open different from the same conflict zone in solo?

On your standard "kill in res cg" maybe but in any war cg it's different. If you're trying to fight for your side and a wing of enemy cmdrs drops in it's a different situation. Those cmdrs also net the same as an npc which also means the game doesn't scale the reward. Are you sure about that? Does an elite player in a cobra reward the same as an elite NPC cobra? Has this been tested and proved? If so, then I admit to being mistaken about this one thing.

A player is working harder to kill another player than they are to kill an npc (most of the time) but yet they get the same reward. I agree that PLAYER kills should be worth more. However, NPC kills should not be increased, nor should the CG rewards.

If the game made a copy of any player ships in open and dropped them in solo in the equivalent cz piloted by an npc with equivalent skill then it would scale a bit better. If this happened, I'd stop participating in CG's altogether and just do my trading/bounty hunting in RES's. Those activities net me more returns than a combat oriented CG anyway.

The combat rating tag also means nothing in open. I'll happily take on a player with an Elite Anaconda dependent on it's subsystems. Most of the pvp pirates have low skill rankings but only because they didn't kill 1000 npcs in an asteroid field. And yet, I come across all levels of combat ratings in solo. This leads me to believe it's randomly generated, and not dependent upon kills like a player's is. Also, I repeat my earlier doubt as to an elite player rewarding the same as an elite NPC if both are in the same kind of ship.

Age and skill are also a moot point. I believe players should be rewarded for skill regardless of age. I believe it's unfair to give everyone a free lolly pop because everyone took part. Except when a free lollipop is the norm to get people to participate. Do you really think people would do these CG's for no rewards whatsoever other than just killing ships? Also, because of age and declining skill levels, (at least for me, personally) NPC's are as hard to kill as other players. Therefore, by your logic...wait, I already said this. Not repeating myself.

You should be free to play your way in solo but when it comes to cg's why should players have an advantage for going to solo? There is no advantage in going to solo, though. It's a PERCEIVED advantage at best, not a real, actual one.

Also, if you're happy in solo and never intend to leave why would you be bothered about players in open? Under Demiga's ideas in the sticky you still get your financial rewards the same as open players and you still contribute.
But my contributions would count for less towards the entire goal, and I'm working just as hard or even harder as anyone else due to my personal skill level for a decreased contribution, and THAT is unbalanced, and what I am inherently against.

Furthermore, I sincerely doubt everyone does these things just for the rewards. ESPECIALLY in combat oriented CG's. If -I- make more in an hour of RES hunting than I do in a combat CG, I'm pretty sure everyone else can double what I make. And yet...people flock to these things, despite other activities netting more CPH. (credits per hour).

Whew.

Look, you're not going to convince me to magically come around to your way of thinking on this, and I'm pretty sure I'm not going to make you suddenly "get it" about what I'm trying to say. I agree to disagree about this, and am merely giving you my reasons for my opposition to what is being proposed. I simply don't want my play devalued or lessened because I'm choosing to play in a different mode for whatever reason.

 

[Distance]

Whew.

Look, you're not going to convince me to magically come around to your way of thinking on this, and I'm pretty sure I'm not going to make you suddenly "get it" about what I'm trying to say. I agree to disagree about this, and am merely giving you my reasons for my opposition to what is being proposed. I simply don't want my play devalued or lessened because I'm choosing to play in a different mode for whatever reason.

I understand how you feel as it's the the same way open players feel right now in regards to CGs.

The only difference is that when it comes to CGs open players feel that their contributions are devalued and lessened if they choose stay in open. They don't want to feel like they're being forced in to solo or group to compete and right now they are due to the reasons described.

EDIT : Only just saw your anotations.

As I said combat rank is meaningless in open. So whilst you might get 1000cr for killing a competent cobra npc, a competent ranked player might be flying like an elite cobra so if you're basing bonds on ranking in these instances they don't stack.

As for everything else it's a case of agreeing to disagree.

Just because someone has a lack of skill for whatever reason it doesn't mean everyone else's experiences and contributions should be watered down to compensate for that.

Seriously though, watch the linked video and compare that to the way npc pirates behave and tell me that there's no advantage to doing trade cg's in solo.

 

[LordRed]

Thank you(fed) solo players

Thank you! You tens of thousands of hidden solo players! for letting me harvest your RES's unmolested. For letting me pillaging your traders and for carrying a multimillion dollar bounty on my back without ever having to look over my shoulder. Thank you for hiding in the dark and and cowering at the thought of ever seeing another live person on this "mmo".

Thank you again for making this the easiest online "multiplayer" to excel in. Also. ...thank you for letting me fly my cargo ships with no shields or weapons no thought of a "pirate" trying to get me.



Thank you again.

 

[wenkman]

yeah, i don't know the do's and don'ts for mmo's but for rpg's there is "Don’t force Roleplay styles on others."

so maybe don't?

 

[SteveLaw]

You'll never kill a player in open with a high bounty due to high wake jumps unless he wants to be killed.

So you're saying that in Open, you can't be killed unless you want to be killed? Well that gets rid of the "higher risk" argument.

Now, if you'd care to explain again, in one paragraph without tangents, how your rewards are "watered down" we can sort that one out as well.

 

[Distance]

So you're saying that in Open, you can't be killed unless you want to be killed? Well that gets rid of the "higher risk" argument.

Now, if you'd care to explain again, in one paragraph without tangents, how your rewards are "watered down" we can sort that one out as well.

In normal game play a competent player in a well fitted combat ship will never die due to high wake jumps. As soon as you're interdicted you can submit boost and jump. The rare occasion this doesn't prove true would be if you're interdicted by a wing of clipper or cobras with rails who could with a bit of luck take out your drives before you escape, dependent on how many boosters and shield cells you're packing.

For anyone playing a trade role not in a multirole ship or someone who hasn't learned the basic mechanics it's dangerous.

Most open players want to get rid of the high wake jump and increase the interdiction cooldown on submit to counter this. This also would make piracy better for traders as we'd have more time to haggle rather than having to shoot first and ask questions later.

In cgs in warzones and res it's a different story entirely for reasons described above.

Regarding "rewards being watered down" I've already concisely stated my case on the matter of cgs several times now.

 

[Joe Spivey]

On interdiction cooldown? If this is increased too much it will just add to the combat logging problem. There MUST be an escape option for traders, and I mean traders who don't play the pew pew game too. Either by specially outfitting their ships with the space-going equivilent of a nitrus-oxide booster (fitted to hardpoints maybe) or some other device that allows escape rather than combat. Make it expensive, make it bulky, but the option has to be there otherwise... combat logging continues.

 

[SteveLaw]

In cgs in warzones and res it's a different story entirely for reasons described above.

Regarding "rewards being watered down" I've already concisely stated my case on the matter of cgs several times now.

Things aren't often said concisely Distance, I keep losing the point. All I see is:

"I want to pirate other players in Open."

"I'm sorry but there isn't anyone left in Open for you to pirate. They don't like you pirating them. You'll have to pirate NPCs or try playing some other role for now, maybe they will come back eventually."

"I don't care!" *stomps foot* "I want to pirate other players in Open and you have to make everyone come to Open so that I can pirate them! Or I'll scweam and I'll scweam and I'll scweam!"

And:

"I want to play CGs in Open."

"You can play CGs in Open."

"But I want to win CGs in Open."

"Well, you will have to try really hard because there are some players trying to stop you in Open. Or you can play them in Solo if you don't want other people trying to stop you."

"I don't want to try really hard! I don't want to play Solo!" *Puts hands on hips." "I want you to make it so that I get more in Open for doing the same as someone in Solo! If you don't do it I'll hold my breath until I turn blue..."