Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Part the Second [Now With Added Platforms].

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You don't often state anything concisely Distance, I keep losing your point. All I see is:

"I want to pirate other players in Open."

"I'm sorry but there isn't anyone left in Open for you to pirate. They don't like you pirating them. You'll have to pirate NPCs or try playing some other role for now, maybe they will come back eventually."

"I don't care!" *stomps foot* "I want to pirate other players in Open and you have to make everyone come to Open so that I can pirate them! Or I'll scweam and I'll scweam and I'll scweam!"

And:

"I want to play CGs in Open."

"You can play CGs in Open."

"But I want to win CGs in Open."

"Well, you will have to try really hard because there are some players trying to stop you in Open. Or you can play them in Solo if you want other people trying to stop you."

"I don't want to try really hard! I don't want to play Solo!" *Puts hands on hips." "I want you to make it so that I get more in Open for doing the same as someone in Solo! If you don't do it I'll hold my breath until I turn blue..."

Totally condescending as usual. I don't do cgs any more and don't have much interest in them. I'm just trying to put across the points that the rest of the open player base has regarding them as they don't seem to have much of a voice on the forums.

As for pirating I have no problems pirating people right now, I'm not trying to make it easier I'm pushing to make it harder and always have done. It shows a lot about your reading comprehension if that's all you've got from any of my posts.

Losing people from open or solo isn't the problem. There are two distinct communities at play in the game. The majority of open players won't leave open to go to solo because of the game mechanics that they think are flawed, they'll leave the game all together and everyone loses then as there's less players to buy stuff from the store and expansions down the line.

The same is true for solo players, you're not going to get a mass exodus from solo to open if they increase some rewards for cgs and even if they did why would it bother players who are always going to stay in solo/group anyway?

I've stated my points quite clearly that even Jockey could see some merit in one of them. The way you made your last post was clearly confrontational and inflammatory and I won't be baited down to that level.
 
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Many people have addressed your points in many different ways and yet you still don't accept that playing in Open means playing with, and against, other people. Playing against other people adds risk (except when you argue there isn't) and it adds competition. Increased competition reduces reward. So you can either reduce the competition, by changing modes or role, or accept the reduced reward. You accept the risk or you move. This is the same solution that's given to players who don't like being attacked in Open.

All all of that is part of Open and you consent to that by playing Open. If you don't consent to any of that then don't play Open. You refuse to do anything different and expect the game to change around *you*.
 
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Many people have addressed your points in many different ways and yet you still don't accept that playing in Open means playing with, and against, other people. Playing against other people adds risk (except when you argue there isn't) and it adds competition. Increased competition reduces reward. So you can either reduce the competition, by changing modes or role, or accept the reduced reward.

All all of that is part of Open and you consent to that by playing Open. If you don't consent to any of that then don't play Open. You refuse to do anything different and expect the game to change around *you*.

Just because you think otherwise when it comes to cg's most open players think that increased risk and competition should have an increased reward and they shouldn't have to feel like they're forced to a different mode to compete.

FD have taken this on board and will act accordingly as is evident to the stickies.
 
Just because you think otherwise when it comes to cg's most open players think that increased risk and competition should have an increased reward and they shouldn't have to feel like they're forced to a different mode to compete.

FD have taken this on board and will act accordingly as is evident to the stickies.

Well then why do you keep banging on about CGs? There is a thread about it, you've posted to it, let's wait and see. This thread isn't about CGs it's about modes in general and no-one is forced to switch just as no-one is forced not to switch apart from those players who are self-limiting themselves and then complaining about it.

It's all very well complaining that the grass is greener in someone else's field but this isn't someone else's field, it's open to everyone equally. Open gives competition and risk and Solo doesn't. Mobius gives a little of both. If you don't like the trade off of earnings vs fun then switch modes. If there aren't enough victims to pirate, do something else for a bit. Don't complain that a screwdriver isn't a very good hammer just because you refuse to change tools.

These players you claim to be representing are being selfish and they are expecting the devs to make changes just to benefit them, taking them away from time that could be spent making changes that benefit everyone.
 
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Just because you think otherwise when it comes to cg's most open players think that increased risk and competition should have an increased reward and they shouldn't have to feel like they're forced to a different mode to compete.

FD have taken this on board and will act accordingly as is evident to the stickies.

The only evedent here is this: open=lets whine and say whatever imaginary issues to have more from others...
 
I'd stop banging on about it if everyone else would. You could have said fair enough agree to disagree and move on but instead you trot out the same tired argument and start calling open players selfish. Are the people asking for an open pve mode selfish too?

Just because you don't see a disparity it doesn't mean one doesn't exist and if players are asking for a fix for that disparity it's not selfish.

If all the npcs were over powered for solo players but fine for open players I wouldn't be saying that solo players were being selfish to ask for a change. Even if it didn't affect me I could still see the problem and I wouldn't stand against it especially if it didn't affect me directly.
 
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On interdiction cooldown? If this is increased too much it will just add to the combat logging problem. There MUST be an escape option for traders, and I mean traders who don't play the pew pew game too. Either by specially outfitting their ships with the space-going equivilent of a nitrus-oxide booster (fitted to hardpoints maybe) or some other device that allows escape rather than combat. Make it expensive, make it bulky, but the option has to be there otherwise... combat logging continues.

Yes, any change to the escape mechanics will have to be done with care, but right now it's way too easy to get away. Especially when you know what you're doing and equip defenses/counter measures. The current mechanics we have now favor the person trying to escape to a very large degree. The worst part of it is, it makes legit piracy and pvp bounty hunting impossible, while quickly killing small weak ships is still possible with high damage weapons.

I'm all for more internal gadgets to help traders escape and pirates pirate, speed boosters, fsd drive scrambles, a high grade frameshift drive has a low cooldown vs a low grade interdictor, increased dmg for the mine thrower, there's plenty of possibilities.

That said, combat logging is a cheat and needs to be wiped out either way. It's asinine to not being able to make a change to a game for fear of people exploiting and cheating to get around it. FD have already said it's not an intended mechanic, so it's not relevant to the discussion.
 
Are the people asking for an open pve mode selfish too?

I don't know are there any? Yes they are a little. I've heard about these people but I haven't seen it. Are you suggesting that they are making anything like the same amount of noise that the "more reward" people are making? Besides which a PvE mode is less work. It's an extra word in the menu and a flag that prevents Players weapons damaging other players, or something. Besides the fact that a PVE mode is only needed in the first place because PvP players have decided that that is what Open actually is, and tough luck to anyone who doesn't want PvP. Extra rewards for Open will take more work in the first place and then it will need testing and balancing and re-testing, for all the different ways that rewards can be earned - should they all be treated the same way with the same bonus? And then we'll get the next round of demands from Open players like locked modes, etc.. It's not the same thing.
 
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Some people want player interaction, some don't. FD are trying to cater to everybody, which seems sensible from a business point of view, and actually should be a point of common agreement for everyone, as presumably we all want the game to succeed so we can continue to play it. ;)

I understand the CG issue that Distance brings up. Maybe FD will at some point create Open only CG's. Only they know if the demand for such a thing is there. And they can presumably do it as they did it for the race to Elite and the Nvidea card competition.

I can't see this 'argument' ever going away, and I'm pretty sure that FD don't want to alienate any of their player base unless they see a huge percentage of players (not just forum commentators) choosing one mode over the others. In the end, they give us the option to play the game the way we want, the thing they have always said they want to do.
 
Yes, any change to the escape mechanics will have to be done with care, but right now it's way too easy to get away. Especially when you know what you're doing and equip defenses/counter measures. The current mechanics we have now favor the person trying to escape to a very large degree. The worst part of it is, it makes legit piracy and pvp bounty hunting impossible, while quickly killing small weak ships is still possible with high damage weapons.

I'm all for more internal gadgets to help traders escape and pirates pirate, speed boosters, fsd drive scrambles, a high grade frameshift drive has a low cooldown vs a low grade interdictor, increased dmg for the mine thrower, there's plenty of possibilities.

That said, combat logging is a cheat and needs to be wiped out either way. It's asinine to not being able to make a change to a game for fear of people exploiting and cheating to get around it. FD have already said it's not an intended mechanic, so it's not relevant to the discussion.

Although you might not want to think that combat logging may is relevant to the discussion, it won't go away until there is some option in place for traders to escape that is acceptable to both parties. Players will not stop using it just because it is against the rules. they will only stop using it if they have an acceptable alternative to what they see as being forced to be the entertainment for the PvP players.
 
Although you might not want to think that combat logging may is relevant to the discussion, it won't go away until there is some option in place for traders to escape that is acceptable to both parties. Players will not stop using it just because it is against the rules. they will only stop using it if they have an acceptable alternative to what they see as being forced to be the entertainment for the PvP players.
Or if they're banned for using it.

It's not only traders that do it. I've seen, bounty hunters, killers, pirates, and traders alike use it. It's not an exclusive pve player escape tool, It's a not die tool.

If there was a magic super boost module. It took 10 seconds to warm up before shooting you off at 500m/s. Players (trader or otherwise) will still pull the plug at 7 seconds, if they were about to die before they could activate it. Hell, I'm sure some won't even equip it because they have a magic get out of jail free card.

You're wrong to think of them as your pve brethren, they're just people who don't want to deal with the consequences of dieing. I'm sure those same people do it against npcs too.
 
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Or if they're banned for using it.

Also, it's not only traders that do it. I've seen, bounty hunters, killers, pirates and traders use it. It's not an exclusive pve player escape tool, It's a not die tool.

If there was a magic super boost module. It took 10 seconds to warm up before shooting you off at 500m/s. Players (trader or otherwise) will still pull the plug at 7 seconds if they were about to die before they could activate it. Hell, I'm sure some won't even equip it because they have a magic get out of jail free card.

You're wrong to think of them as your pve brethren, they're just people who don't want to deal with the consequences of dieing. I'm sure those same people do it against npcs too.

yeah i understand what u say and u r right for the combat log but noone can prove that is a clear combat log or power/internet loss and that is the problem to fix it;/
 
Hi Community! :D

I thought I'd chip in on this new Open vs Solo Topic. I read through much of everything under this topic, and I took some notes of what I was thinking about and reading. I'm not saying all these things should be adopted or are our best options. For instance, I'm not too fond of #4, but I thought I'd throw it out there. I think #1 and #7 would yield the best results in balancing the modes. #6 would enhance all modes, but may benefit Solo players most.

1. Let players influence the official formation of a blockade, making it where NPCs join the official blockade to level the playing field across all modes. This won’t make things perfectly even, as actual players and NPCs have a wide gap in difficulty (for the most part). But the Solo players will have to deal with the blockade ships, as opposed to being able to deliver CG items with far less risk in Solo. Perhaps such official blockades could only be brought about during a time of war, lockdown, or an unusually high number of illegal transactions (smuggling), via Community Goals. If X number of commanders sign up for the CG Blockade, then the blockade is up in all modes (or maybe only in Solo since in Open there’s a blockade of human players?).

2. Also, increase smuggling payouts (black market values) in systems in a state of war and a little more during official blockades, especially for weapons. Not an Open vs Solo suggestion, but I think it would go well with the idea of blockades and give smugglers a new, challenging way to make more credits.

3. I favor Open players getting bonuses for trading, combat, bounty hunting, and exploration, and Solo players getting only the normal rate for their actions (simply because more risk should yield more reward).

4. Perhaps Solo mode NPCs should be more difficult, on average, than Open NPCs. This has the potential to hurt Solo, so this idea definitely needs to be weighed carefully, more so than bonuses in Open as more difficult Solo NPCs would add more risk to Solo. I wouldn’t suggest harder NPCs in Solo in combination with bonus payouts in Open. Also keep in mind that some players play Solo not just to “game the system” by gaining advantage. Some either don’t want that level of difficulty as it may not be suited to their abilities and play style, or simply because they don’t want to. Perhaps Solo players should be able to choose a difficulty level, whereas Open is at a set difficulty, or unchangeable?

5. With the idea of Open and Solo carrying different weight with players contributing to Community Goals, I think this could be effective in combination with higher payouts for Open players. Perhaps instead of Solo players’ CG contributions carrying less weight, perhaps Open players’ contribution carry more weight (in other words, Solo players still able to contribute 100T and it still counts as 100T, but Open players get an extra 10% toward their CG contributions). The key here is you want to encourage people to play Open (rewarding for higher risk) but you don’t want to discourage Solo (punish for playing alone/lowering base payouts).

6. One way to encourage Solo Mode play would be to give the NPCs more character. Give players the option of hailing NPCs and interacting with them, in a similar way to Starflight. Some Solo players are inevitably going to feel the game lacks personality at some point. Open mode has the benefit as the only mode with potential for complex, in-depth interactions with other ships. Solo players do not get to experience this level of interaction and immersion, so NPCs that real players can interact with would enrich Solo Mode greatly, and enrich Open (perhaps not as much as it would enrich Solo due to the already present possibility of interaction in Open).

7. The best way to improve Open Mode- Frontier needs to keep trying to deal with rammers, exploiters/cheaters, combat loggers, and other types of unfair or unwanted behavior. There are quite a few who want to play in Open Mode but fear they may be cheated by getting killed in a cheap way. These people who want a fairer Open mode will not be satisfied with the answers, “Go play Solo,” or “Play something else.” Going Solo is not a solution for people who want to play in Open, but have legitimate concerns. I feel that this one would bring back players who are hesitant of playing in Open. And with 1.3’s changes coming, I think that’ll help Open be a fairer experience.

The list is just my thoughts so far. I'll keep thinking on it and reading, and try to come up with some more ideas :)
 
Hi Community! :D

I thought I'd chip in on this new Open vs Solo Topic. I read through much of everything under this topic, and I took some notes of what I was thinking about and reading. I'm not saying all these things should be adopted or are our best options. For instance, I'm not too fond of #4, but I thought I'd throw it out there. I think #1 and #7 would yield the best results in balancing the modes. #6 would enhance all modes, but may benefit Solo players most.

1. Let players influence the official formation of a blockade, making it where NPCs join the official blockade to level the playing field across all modes. This won’t make things perfectly even, as actual players and NPCs have a wide gap in difficulty (for the most part). But the Solo players will have to deal with the blockade ships, as opposed to being able to deliver CG items with far less risk in Solo. Perhaps such official blockades could only be brought about during a time of war, lockdown, or an unusually high number of illegal transactions (smuggling), via Community Goals. If X number of commanders sign up for the CG Blockade, then the blockade is up in all modes (or maybe only in Solo since in Open there’s a blockade of human players?).

2. Also, increase smuggling payouts (black market values) in systems in a state of war and a little more during official blockades, especially for weapons. Not an Open vs Solo suggestion, but I think it would go well with the idea of blockades and give smugglers a new, challenging way to make more credits.

3. I favor Open players getting bonuses for trading, combat, bounty hunting, and exploration, and Solo players getting only the normal rate for their actions (simply because more risk should yield more reward).

4. Perhaps Solo mode NPCs should be more difficult, on average, than Open NPCs. This has the potential to hurt Solo, so this idea definitely needs to be weighed carefully, more so than bonuses in Open as more difficult Solo NPCs would add more risk to Solo. I wouldn’t suggest harder NPCs in Solo in combination with bonus payouts in Open. Also keep in mind that some players play Solo not just to “game the system” by gaining advantage. Some either don’t want that level of difficulty as it may not be suited to their abilities and play style, or simply because they don’t want to. Perhaps Solo players should be able to choose a difficulty level, whereas Open is at a set difficulty, or unchangeable?

5. With the idea of Open and Solo carrying different weight with players contributing to Community Goals, I think this could be effective in combination with higher payouts for Open players. Perhaps instead of Solo players’ CG contributions carrying less weight, perhaps Open players’ contribution carry more weight (in other words, Solo players still able to contribute 100T and it still counts as 100T, but Open players get an extra 10% toward their CG contributions). The key here is you want to encourage people to play Open (rewarding for higher risk) but you don’t want to discourage Solo (punish for playing alone/lowering base payouts).

6. One way to encourage Solo Mode play would be to give the NPCs more character. Give players the option of hailing NPCs and interacting with them, in a similar way to Starflight. Some Solo players are inevitably going to feel the game lacks personality at some point. Open mode has the benefit as the only mode with potential for complex, in-depth interactions with other ships. Solo players do not get to experience this level of interaction and immersion, so NPCs that real players can interact with would enrich Solo Mode greatly, and enrich Open (perhaps not as much as it would enrich Solo due to the already present possibility of interaction in Open).

7. The best way to improve Open Mode- Frontier needs to keep trying to deal with rammers, exploiters/cheaters, combat loggers, and other types of unfair or unwanted behavior. There are quite a few who want to play in Open Mode but fear they may be cheated by getting killed in a cheap way. These people who want a fairer Open mode will not be satisfied with the answers, “Go play Solo,” or “Play something else.” Going Solo is not a solution for people who want to play in Open, but have legitimate concerns. I feel that this one would bring back players who are hesitant of playing in Open. And with 1.3’s changes coming, I think that’ll help Open be a fairer experience.

The list is just my thoughts so far. I'll keep thinking on it and reading, and try to come up with some more ideas :)

1.hm intresting if we wanted the blockade to work us the other space game we would play that game
2.we can agree on that
3.already open have that payout
4.here we start with the imaginary solo easy mode...
5.another nerf solo invalid point...
6.solo dont need encourage by anything ... the few griefers that r on open they do that job pretty well
7. and here you have ur valid point :D
 
Hi Community! :D

Hi jpaulwilson. :)

1. Let players influence the official formation of a blockade, making it where NPCs join the official blockade to level the playing field across all modes. This won’t make things perfectly even, as actual players and NPCs have a wide gap in difficulty (for the most part).

However, you could argue that NPC blockades in Solo would be more effective because they will apply to all players equally where as PvP blockades in Open are less effective because of instancing and router tweaks/issues. And once blockades become officially supported then NPCs should blockade the stations and it would be close to 100% effective. You bring it closer and closer to rendering CGs pointless and just turn them into a system-wide CZ. That isn't what CGs are meant to be.

The key here is you want to encourage people to play Open (rewarding for higher risk) but you don’t want to discourage Solo (punish for playing alone/lowering base payouts).

Increasing Open rewards is effectively the same thing as decreasing Solo rewards. Either way Open gets more than Solo.

---

NPCs with more character benefits everyone and would be awesome. It's something that will come with time I'm sure as will NPC behavior in general (such as combat ability).

Smuggling and illegal trading in general needs a lot of love, agreed.
 
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Blockades are not supposed to be something players can do, it really has nothing to do with Open vs Solo. You may would like to have that Feature, but the Games does not want you to have it.

Its part of that whole Mafiosi style of play some players would like to do but FD does not want you to be able to do.
 
1. Let players influence the official formation of a blockade, making it where NPCs join the official blockade to level the playing field across all modes. This won’t make things perfectly even, as actual players and NPCs have a wide gap in difficulty (for the most part). But the Solo players will have to deal with the blockade ships, as opposed to being able to deliver CG items with far less risk in Solo. Perhaps such official blockades could only be brought about during a time of war, lockdown, or an unusually high number of illegal transactions (smuggling), via Community Goals. If X number of commanders sign up for the CG Blockade, then the blockade is up in all modes (or maybe only in Solo since in Open there’s a blockade of human players?).

There have been basically 3 types of community goals so far. There are the combat bonds types, which are combat oriented and focus on getting kills in CZs or other areas and achieving that sort of thing. That caters to the people interested in combat who have combat oriented ships. There are exploration types, where exploration data is handed in at a certain station for a reward. That caters to the people interested in exploring who have ships designed for long range and scanning distant planets and stars. Then there are the trade types, where a station has to try and accumulate goods via trade. This caters to those who like trading who have ships configured for trading purposes.

What you want to do with blockades is to take trade-oriented CGs and convert them into quasi-combat/trade oriented CGs. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but I am saying this idea might rub a few people the wrong way and it really needs to be carefully considered. Think about this. Let's say there is a combat bond CG in a system, and whichever side wins gets the CG bonus and rewards. But within the conflict zones there are capital ships; and the number and strength of those ships is determined by the amount of gallium and berylium being delivered to each sides particular station. Thus people begin dragging cargo in Type 9s to those stations en masse, having a heavy influence on what is going on in the combat zones and how successful each side could possibly be in there, how well would that go down with those in the combat zones?

3. I favor Open players getting bonuses for trading, combat, bounty hunting, and exploration, and Solo players getting only the normal rate for their actions (simply because more risk should yield more reward).

Total immersion killer. What effects the Elite universe should be things that take place within the Elite universe. The mode I pick to enter it shouldn't factor in the price I pay for gold or the amount that I get for a bounty. It makes absolutely no logical sense in terms of gameplay.

5. With the idea of Open and Solo carrying different weight with players contributing to Community Goals, I think this could be effective in combination with higher payouts for Open players. Perhaps instead of Solo players’ CG contributions carrying less weight, perhaps Open players’ contribution carry more weight (in other words, Solo players still able to contribute 100T and it still counts as 100T, but Open players get an extra 10% toward their CG contributions). The key here is you want to encourage people to play Open (rewarding for higher risk) but you don’t want to discourage Solo (punish for playing alone/lowering base payouts).

This idea is often mooted but it never gets any less terrible with each telling. Imagine the Elite universe as a democracy, with everyone having equal but minimal influence. You basically want to remove the vote (or at least lessen the vote) of a lot of people. They'll be forced to share a universe, with the politics and faction activites of that universe being dictated to them by other players. "Open players are better than you" is the inescapable message this sends.

This won't encourage me into Open, it'll encourage me to uninstall the game and wait for Star Citizen. Full stop.
 
The only difference is that when it comes to CGs open players feel that their contributions are devalued and lessened if they choose stay in open. They don't want to feel like they're being forced in to solo or group to compete and right now they are due to the reasons described.

And yet, you are advocating devaluing and lessening solo player rewards by increasing open rewards, thus "forcing" solo players into open for the better payouts. That stinks of hypocrisy.

EDIT : Only just saw your anotations.

As I said combat rank is meaningless in open. So whilst you might get 1000cr for killing a competent cobra npc, a competent ranked player might be flying like an elite cobra so if you're basing bonds on ranking in these instances they don't stack.

You're really not getting my point, despite my using the most simple examples I can think of. I really don't know the reward formula the game uses, and I even said I was using a supposition for the ease of explanation. I also said if you have proof that an competent NPC cobra pays out the same as a competent player, bring it and I'll admit I'm wrong. I haven't seen proof yet. Therefore, I'm not wrong. Yet.

As for everything else it's a case of agreeing to disagree.

Just because someone has a lack of skill for whatever reason it doesn't mean everyone else's experiences and contributions should be watered down to compensate for that.

The exact opposite can be said and be equally true. Just because someone has an excess of skill and everything is so easy for them, it doesn't mean other persons/peoples experiences should be made more difficult to compensate.

Seriously though, watch the linked video and compare that to the way npc pirates behave and tell me that there's no advantage to doing trade cg's in solo.

I watched a portion of it, and I saw you(if that's you as the pilot of the "pirate" ship) mostly preying on what I guess to be lower rated, less skilled and less dangerous opponents. Not something to brag about, m'boy.

I'd stop banging on about it if everyone else would. You could have said fair enough agree to disagree and move on but instead you trot out the same tired argument and start calling open players selfish. Are the people asking for an open pve mode selfish too?

Having ten thousand comments on the last thread and over two hundred on this continuation......your side is "trotting out the same tired arguments" that have been rebutted time and again. Again, I smell hypocrisy. You are more intelligent than that, at least judging by your grammar, punctuation, spelling and even manners.

Just because you don't see a disparity it doesn't mean one doesn't exist and if players are asking for a fix for that disparity it's not selfish.
And again, the exact opposite can be said and be equally true. Just because YOU see a disparity doesn't mean one exists, and players that are asking for a "fix" for something that does not exist are actually creating said disparity.


If all the npcs were over powered for solo players but fine for open players I wouldn't be saying that solo players were being selfish to ask for a change. Even if it didn't affect me I could still see the problem and I wouldn't stand against it especially if it didn't affect me directly.

See...the whole thing...the ten thousand two hundred plus posts so far? PvP vs. PvE. Just like all the other MMO's out there. OF COURSE the two sides are going to clash, no matter what. I told you I'm dead set against my play being devalued to make your side "feel better"...when there's really no actual disparity occurring. Well, other than the player kill rewards not being greater by dint of it being harder to kill a player than an NPC. (But I still haven't seen any actual proof of this yet.)

We can continue to go around and around about this...with the same old "tired arguments" being trotted out with the same old "tired rebuttals" coming back at them....at least until something new is introduced, at which point either someone's side will be unequivocally proven or a new rebuttal will come to light.

Tom Petty said it best:

[video=youtube;k2h9HPZhqHE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2h9HPZhqHE[/video]
 
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If you can't handle it play Open. ;)

If you log out of Open and back into Open presumably the same thing happens?
 
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